N&PD Moderators: Skorpio
Moclobemide for easing the MDMA blues.
permastoned
Bluelighter
^ In my opinion, selegiline would be much better/safer at doing that. Better because you increase your dopamine without increasing your noradrenaline. I have yet to meet someone who likes the feeling of adrenergic activation in the CNS.
filenet
Greenlighter
please describe your understanding of "the feeling of adrenergic activation in the CNS"?
i ask this because I don't feel anything different when combining moclobemide with stims - just potentiation & duration of that stim feeling!
i might add that i have been using moclobemide on&off for a few years now, under direction of psyc - he actually introduced me to the moclobemide/d-amp sulfate combo!
permastoned
Bluelighter
^ What an awesome psych haha.. Can you tell me who he is
Ok basically, the main two effects of d-amp are release of noradrenaline and dopamine. Dopamine is responsible for the pleasurable feelings of the stim, whereas noradrenaline tends to be responsible for the irritability (especially later on), the insomnia, that weird yawny feeling, shrinking of your dick, loss of appetite etc. You will know the feeling if you take an NRI such as atomextine or reboxetine. They suck balls.
What dose of moclobemide are you on?
There are two forms of MAO - A and B.
Moclobemide mostly inhibits MAO A. MAO A is responsible for dopamine, serotonin, and norepinephrine. So when you use it to potentiate a stim, you are potentiating both the good effects, but also (in my opinion, the bad effects).
Of those 3 neurotransmitters, MAO B only metabolises dopamine. As such, with selegiline (a selective inhibitor of MAO B), you will only potentiate the good effects. However, the effect on serotonin from moclobemide would be missing, so it is a bit of a toss up.
pofacedhoe
Bluelight Crew
if you have a low level of NE relative to other monoamine neurotransmitters then increased NE might feel very good. if you have too little of something then getting it up to balance may cause you to feel more comfortable.
maybe in your case while your serotonin levels are very low your NE is comfortable so the mao-a effect while bring one to balance pushes another up out of balance leading to discomfort.
personally i find increases in dopamine can be very uncomfortable physically and paranoia inducing. they feel good for about a minute or two then get rapidly too much and i feel like crying and battering everyone to death, its like emotional overload. i have been diagnosed bipolar. the drug that has helped me the most is tramadol which i have in 150mg every morning and thats it for each day.
i reckon that having a large increase serotonin and NE with a small increase in dopamine (moclobemide, with low dose d amphetamine) sounds better than a large increase in dopamine and noradenaline and a small increase in serotonin (d amphetamine in moderate dose).
remember that serotonin has inhibiting effects on behaviour that can be very important when it comes to reducing impulsivity, aggression and emotional instability. it has a benefit in behaving in ways that will be beneficial long term
to permastoned- dopamine is only pleasureable when the levels begin low and rise to moderate. high levels of dopamine can be terrifying and emotionally soul destroying, giving you homicidal/suicidal urges and completely irrational thought patterns...
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permastoned
Bluelighter
^ Very good point. I never thought of it like that. Everyone's brain is different and different people have lower levels of different neurotransmitters.
I think I tend to agree with your 'balance' theory. There is an optimal balance at which the level of the neurotransmitter feels best, past which it can start to feel bad, and below which it can also feel bad.
Due to a genetic predisposition or for whatever reason, some people may have underbalanced or overbalanced levels of certain neurotransmitters, and this may affect them during their day to day lives in a negative way.
filenet
Greenlighter
nice little explanation there mate - cheers!
yup, tried both atomextine & reboxetine...both fucking horrible! horrendous sweats, tingles, constipation and so on......they also dramatically reduced the effects of coke!
over the years my dosage of moclobemide has ranged from 300-1200mg/day
re your listed Bad Effects
irritability...dont get it!
insomnia...that's a positive for me, I get more done in the day
yawny feeling...doesn't bother me, except for those really big ones on come up - they almost knock you out!
dick shrink...meh! doesn't last for ever
loss of appetite...im ok with that
yeah, I suppose then I am someone who likes the feeling of adrenergic activation in the CNS!
got a question for ya PS - I have recently become fond of modafinil (300mg/day). Any cautions with combining with moclobemide?
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filenet
Greenlighter
pofacedhoe - couldn't agree more. i spent most of my life in the dreary & dull dysthymic trance - I always had this thought that I lacked levels of something that others did not! It was only later in life that I actually addressed this and since then I have really taking note of what lifts this cloud and what doesnt!
(yeah I know, double post but meh! fuck it)
permastoned
Bluelighter
^ cautions combining moclobemide.. in my opinion no. It is a mild Dopamine and noradrenaline reuptake inhibitor, as such there will be some potentiation. Its effect in this regard would be overpowered by the amphetamine though, so it really doesn't make a big difference.
Also, it is very hard to get serotonin syndrome or any other such episode (cheese syndrome) when on a reversible inhibitor, because when the substrate begins to get high enough to be toxic (serotonin being the substrate, for example), it will actually displace moclobemide from the MAO enzyme due to competetive binding (more serotonin around means higher likelihood that it will bind to MAO rather than moclobemide) and become metabolised.
^What does all this babble mean? Take it easy and start small (50 mg of modafinil the first time, perhaps) and you should be fine.
permastoned
Bluelighter
I too have been in the dysthymia cloud for the majority of my life (years 10-20) or so. But now I am on d-amp and selegiline. It works great. How much d-amp do you take a day filenet?
pofacedhoe
Bluelight Crew
i personally cannot even tolerate a tiny amount of amphetamine without experiencing enhanced paranoia and even greater grandiosity than ussual. phenibut for me made me go insane. its all about balance as those with high serotonin naturally often feel greater dysphoria when on ssri's as the numb bored feeling increases. i dont like cocaine very much, in tiny doses is relaxing but very easy even on coca tea to reach the point of irritability and confusion.
my favourite drug ever though is old comercial quality indian 9bar hash found in europe (often called soap but not not filled with shite-do not confuse with morrocan soapbar), easy to cut with a hot knife but solid at warm temps. its the CBD content i love, most people find this boring but CBD has antipsychotic qualities that lack the extra pyramidal side effects common in neuroleptics that make a person practically a joke for normal sorts to laugh at (weight gain, tarditive dyskinesia, neuroleptic malignant syndrome, etc.). i prefer this high to potent hash as its far more comfortable.
also how does moclobemide affect the alphamethyldopamine (F&B explaination) content of the tuesday blues syndrome?
filenet
Greenlighter
nice info there %)
no desire to combo modaf & moclo really...as I find the modaf alone is perfect to soften the landing of a big run!
and yeah I agree with it being overpowered by amphetamine, well meth-amphetamine in my case - wasn't planned but just after dosing the modaf I caught up with a mate you shared some shards....
how much d-amp do i take? 
well Im prescribed 30mg/day but in those times when I don't feel like following docs orders I may find the bottle being empty after 3 days!
is your selegiline prescription for dysthymia off label?
edit1:: (btw, i don't encourage taking more meds than prescribed and by no way recommend it...unfortunately the other dude in my head doesn't see it the same way!)
edit2:: pfh - you have totally lost me with the alphamethyldopamine (F&B explaination)??
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pofacedhoe
Bluelight Crew
nice info there %)
no desire to combo modaf & moclo really...as I find the modaf alone is perfect to soften the landing of a big run!
and yeah I agree with it being overpowered by amphetamine, well meth-amphetamine in my case - wasn't planned but just after dosing the modaf I caught up with a mate you shared some shards....
how much d-amp do i take? well Im prescribed 30mg/day but in those times when I don't feel like following docs orders I may find the bottle being empty after 3 days!
is your selegiline prescription for dysthymia off label?
edit1:: (btw, i don't encourage taking more meds than prescribed and by no way recommend it...unfortunately the other dude in my head doesn't see it the same way!)
edit2:: pfh - you have totally lost me with the alphamethyldopamine (F&B explaination)??
well fast and bulbous had a theory that the intense comedown two days after a dose of mdma was a result of the breakdown product alphamethyldopamine which sits in the place of dopamine in your neurons yet does nothing which then causes you to feel the combined effect of low serotonin levels (mdma depletion) and low activity in dopamine neurons (ordinary dopamine is blocked from doing its job) which is why that part of the comedown is particularlly mega shitty.
i always found that disrupted serotonin levels on their own ( coming off ssri's for instance) without disrupted dopamine levels could be pretty euphoric, although it does result in increased emotional instability and other serotonin deficit specific effects in behaviour and cognition. for instance rage and twatting people... not so good
TheLastAxon
Bluelighter
Have you tried a MAO A & B inhibitor like Phenelzine post MDMA use?
TheLastAxon
Bluelighter
It doesn't make alot of sense how low serotonin activity causes a delayed comedown 2 days post mdma use. If SSRI's work to desensitize 5-ht receptors via increasing serotonin exposure, then wouldn't they also be desensitized after MDMA due to the mass amounts of SE release? So within this theory that would predict one would be emotionally numb for days following mdma exposure, rather than the opposite that most people experience, which is increased sensitivity to emotion and emotional instability. Maybe what happens is that the 5-htp receptors up regulate to compensate for low SE levels, therefore increasing sensitivity to serotonin, hence the delayed comedown?
ebola?
Bluelight Crew
Rangrz, on here; he's fucking nuts. 
...
Per my hypothesizing, NE release (and to a lesser extent, adrenal activity) effects a great deal of the stimulant 'body-high', and a great deal of euphoria depends decisively on monitoring of the body for such effects.
ebola
filenet
Greenlighter
nup! why is that?
TheLastAxon
Bluelighter
Just wondering if a full MAO A & B inhibitor would even be more effective due to it killing MAO B too. But I could see this causing unwanted side effects and also being irreversible, it may take a while to return back to normal if it causes any significant problems. Another consideration is that Moclobemide works very quickly at inhibiting, therefore exerting its antidepressant effects quick enough to counteract the mid week blues. Where as Phenelzine may take a while to exert any useful effects(its inhibition is progressive) so by the time it does, the mid week blues would of already passed.
filenet
Greenlighter
irreversible MAOIs are something that I will not go near! i've seen the devastating outcome of an innocent mistake...nasty!
I agree with you on the quick "in & out" properties of moclobemide - I will never forget the first day that I was prescribed it...instant change after the 1st dose and rather stimulating & euphoric. These effects diminished after about 3 months (during which I thought these were simply "the tits") however it still continued to work wonders on the dysthymia! And unlike most ADs, you can stop cold turkey with no side effects, ie 2 day washout period before mdma and straight back on it!
strange though, as its reputation these days is very low and not widely used (which is another reason why I believe i am naturally low in one of the NTs that others usually arent)
I'm not so sure about Moclobemide working to reduce the effects of SSRI post-depression.
The bioavailability is only 55% after a single dose (http://www.mentalhealth.com/drug/p30-m04.html [find: bioavailability]), and separate from that, the therapeutic effects reducing depressive symptoms are only noticeable after about 2 weeks, with bioavailability increasing after one week (source: doctor, [currently on course of Moclobemide]).
I've also read that following termination of SSRI treatment**, you should wait at least 4 half lives of the SSRI (two weeks, usually), before administration of an MAOI.
In saying that, it varies person to person. I was uneducated in the pharmacological interactions between SSRIs and MAOIs once, believing my doctor when he said it is safe to mix with party drugs (his insinuation was that I need not worry at all about adverse reactions of MAOI and rec. drug usage). Because of this, I have used Ecstasy while on my course of Moclobemide. For me, the only effect was exacerbation of ecstasy effects, most enjoyable. 3 times without an adverse reaction in the slightest, including one dud pill which still did not react adversely (it did not react at all).
**I'm not sure whether treatment includes single dose, recreational use, it wouldn't suggest so, but the risk is still present.
permastoned
Bluelighter
^Firstly, I don't know why you are talking about SSRIS.
Secondly, your doctor is an imbecile; he should be disciplined for this mistake. Even though the combination works great for you, the fact is there are case reports of deaths resulting from the combination of moclobemide and MDMA.
Sure, some people can get away with it (myself included), but for others it will kill them.
http://www.mdma.net/toxicity/moclobemide.html
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