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  • EADD Moderators: Pissed_and_messed | Shinji Ikari

Millionnaires have some more money

Mr Smokes Blunts. said:
You are under the mistaken impression that I am rich or from money, I am not. I would have been in the trenches just like everyone else if I'd been around then. Keep on mistakenly stereotyping me, you're only embaressing yourself.
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Once again when did I say you had money?
I thought you were just a thick yank with that immature picture you posted.
I don't give a fuck if you are millionaire or a tramp a I fucking don't like what you say.

Just a little about me.
I joined the Army at 16 and signed on for 9 years. I did a tour in Ireland and tour in the first gulf war.
In-between my tours of duty I went to a warehouse party that made a large impact on me and changed my closed minded views on the world forever. Unfortunatly I was locked in and did my time.
It was at an illegal party in the 90's I found myself one minute free of the chains of my real life and in another place that made me believe in human nature once again. Then the next minute I found myself in a position of fear of uniformed thugs snapping me back to reality.
Can you see the paradox.
I was a nice gentle person when I joined.
I was dehumanised and trained to kill.
I saw things a young man should not see.
I found a space in time I could escape and be free.
What they wanted me to be found me and stopped me.
From that point onwards I found that love and peace is futile against what was my destiny.
So I find it's the only language that the people in power understand no matter what their political standpoint is.
I love swirls because they dissolve all boundaries.
The real world is unfortunatly full of boundaries because of closed minds of people like you.
I therefore hate this paradox I live in of wanting a universe, unified and full of love but living in a reality full of hate and pain.
I hope this may dissolve the boundary that has created between us.
But then we live in this shitty world.
 
Shambles said:
I don't think everything should be owned by workers - I'm certainly nowhere near being a communist.
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Why not Shammy? What is more fair, equal and decent than the means of production being under the control of the people who do the production? Anything else is, like MSB's politics, indefensible ;)

People shy away from using the word "communist" because of it's unfortunate connotations with regimes you've rightly characterised as totalitarian and nothing more. That's fair enough as far as it goes but at some point we need a word for the thing that means the opposite of a society based on political-economic class, private property and inheritance, the rule of the minority over the majority through the force of the state, and the arbitrary division of the working people to set them against each other.
 
Shambles said:
Don't even get me going on Bill Gates :|

He created fuck all - he stole from others, fiddled around the edges a bit and got a ridiculously lucky break is all. He deserves to have his arse sued to hell and back is what he deserves. But of course he can afford to make sure that never succeeds.

I'm sure many a rich cunt spends 100 hours a week busy as a busy thing - all those nice resteraunt meals and foreign jollies won't go eating and jollying themselves. I'm sure many a rich cunt truly does work hard - and probably does have something "special" that made them their fortune. But the man on the factory floor forced to work 100 hours a week just to keep his job probably sees it differently. Any business only succeeds if all invovled do their bit. Doesn't it follow that all involved should also get a fair recompense for that work rather than a handful creaming of every penny they can get their claws on and leave the rest to fight over the crumbs or face dolescumdom?

I don't think everything should be owned by workers - I'm certainly nowhere near being a communist - but I do believe in fairness, equality and common decency towards your fellow man.
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Apart from the 3 bankruptees I spoke about before, I think I know another 4 or 5 rich people. They all do 100 hours, especially during the wealth creation phase. They are literally chained to their blackberries. It is, from where I'm sitting, a lot more stressful than the average persons clock in at 9 clock out at 5 job. They are never off the clock, they never see their children, and their family relations really suffer.

Of course the guy doing 100 hour weeks on the factory floor deserves to be compensated fairly for his time, but even if his job is vital to the operation that doesn't mean he is. He is replaceable, and if he isn't then supply and demand kicks in and his salary rises accordingly. If there wasn't such an abundant amount of unskilled workers in this country, then their wages would be higher. The fact they are unskilled is pretty much down to them in most cases... At least that's the opinion I have formed as someone who wasn't given everything on a plate, but still managed to get educated to a high level. The asshole disruptive kids at my school have ended up working on tills and I can't help but feel like there is some justice in that. Even now, if they decide to turn things around there are loads of opportunities for them. They can go back into education, they could start their own enterprise, or apply for a different job with better prospects and work their way up.
 
^^ Can see where you're coming from, Knock. I suspect Vurtual is bang on with his post - frankly I'm not knowledgable enough about the intricacies of varying shades along the political spectrum to comfortably label myself as being any of particular established group. And although I'm not daft enough to equate communism with Russia, China and the like, it has become a tainted term as a result of others' misrepresentations of it.

My ideal political set-up would probably be some form of anarchy. But again, that's more or less pure idealism - bit too advanced for us to manage at this stage of development. Communism is - as is often pointed out - a great idea never put into practice. The pseudo-communist states kinda pissed in the pool tho so it probably never will now. Proper free-market capitalism has - of course - also never been put into practice. Would probably scare the shit outta most self-proclaimed capitalists if it ever was. And rightly so.

I also rather like the term "left-wing libertarian". Partly cos it pisses of the ultra-right kinda libertarians but also cos it appeals as an idea - give folks the freedoms they have a right to but not at the expense of others. Sort of. I'm not very good at politics (you may have noticed ;)) but I know what I mean even if I can't really explain it properly 8)
 
^^ So if you fuck up when you're a kid that's it, you're fucked for life and deserve to always be skint?

I don't like the term "replaceable" at all, they might be replaceable to the boss but they are a human being with a life to live, every bit as valid as every other human being. Unskilled workers aren't cattle..

What would the solution be? We are sending more kids to Uni but it is just creating a generation with a degree which is pretty meaningless, saddled with debts and unable to find work.

(Happy birthday btw :D )

Shammy: left wing libertarian describes me pretty well I think, although anarchy has a lot of appeals.. I find it hard to argue against it from an idealistic perspective but like you I think it falls down when it comes to practicalities.
 
Mr Smokes Blunts. said:
The asshole disruptive kids at my school have ended up working on tills and I can't help but feel like there is some justice in that.
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Yes of course, because the "asshole" disruptive kids chose to be like that, they were completely free to determine what they were like, free of any genetic or environmental influence on their development. Free as a bird.

:!
 
Shambles said:
I would probably be placed left of centre by most folks and whether it sounds like it or not I genuinely don't think "those people" are the source of all human misery. I somewhat grudgingly accept that what you say about most people being fundamentally greedy pricks if they can get away with it is probably true. But I think it's only true cos most of us are brought up to be selfish fucks - either priveliged and terrified that less well off folks surely want to "redistribute" all your hard-inherited money to themselves or got nowt and envy others. It doesn't have to be that way though. Working for the common good doesn't necessarily mean that effort or talent shouldn't be rewarded, it's just that some people's effort or talent seems to be way overvalued whilst the vast majority - those who make wealth actually possible - are way undervalued.

And then to rub salt in the wound it's the ones who have least who have little choice but to pay the tax their expected to. If a worker on minimum wage can pay his tax - willingly or less so - then why not someone who frankly wouldn't notice whether they'd paid it or not unless their accountant gets excited about it?
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That is just the luck of birth though, isn't it? Would you advocate that we all worse masks in public because some people are born ugly and that isn't fair? Everything in life is unfair, and even places like Scandinavia are becoming less and less equal by the day. Even your position in your family can affect your success in life. If you're first born you're much more likely to be successful. I think people have been selfish since the invention of money. Even brain washing from birth in the USSR hasn't stopped the oligarchs from being as greedy as possible...

To be honest I am in agreement that there should be no tax below the point at which there is a point in paying it. By which I mean, that when you tax 5k off of a 15k worker just to give it back to them, that is totally pointless. But then it only seems right that the primary users of a service pay at least what they can. And people on 15k a year would be lost if they couldn't say 'I pay my taxes', even if they pale in insignificance compared to what they take out of the system.
 
So your argument is essentially "life's unfair so tough shit" is it? I would tend to agree. The difference is that I don't accept that that's the way it should be and also believe that it can change for the better. But only if people stop buying into the idea that "well, that's just the way of the world innit?" cos the world is what we make it.
 
knockando said:
Yes of course, because the "asshole" disruptive kids chose to be like that, they were completely free to determine what they were like, free of any genetic or environmental influence on their development. Free as a bird.

:!
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Yep, and their children will just repeat the cycle... What shall we do about it? Create a situation where we take money from people who create 'good' children to finance those who create 'bad' children, or what? You do realise that to fix this situation we'd need on social worker to every 5 people. It would be impossible.
 
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Shambles said:
So your argument is essentially "life's unfair so tough shit" is it? I would tend to agree. The difference is that I don't accept that that's the way it should be and also believe that it can change for the better. But only if people stop buying into the idea that "well, that's just the way of the world innit?" cos the world is what we make it.
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That's an element of my argument. The main one being that life is so unfair that no amount of human effort or even totalitarian effort can change that. The only thing humans have ever existed in when combatting inequality has been creating equal misery. I feel like all that ever happens is that the people at the top get dragged down, but the people at the bottom only ever get it marginally better no matter what we do. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't try, of course. I also don't envy, hate or resent the rich like a lot of people on here. They have their place in society.
 
Shambles said:
I don't envy, resnt or hate the rich per se. I do object to people taking the piss and deliberately screwing their fellow man over for the sake of a few more trinkets for their collection though.
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I don't see it as screwing their fellow man, they are still contributing thousands of times more than their fellow man to a system they don't even use... Especially when it feels like you are just throwing good money after bad a lot of the time.
 
Michael Carol <3

Redristribution of wealth in action :D

He may be a nobber but at least he knows how to enjoy money that he did fuck all to acquire.

Possibly not a role model in the wider picture but in his position I would be tempted to do similar I must admit :D
 
Mr Smokes Blunts. said:
I don't see it as screwing their fellow man, they are still contributing thousands of times more than their fellow man to a system they don't even use... Especially when it feels like you are just throwing good money after bad a lot of the time.
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They do use the system. Maybe not as much as the rest of us but they do. The system they help fund underpins everything they do. They need it as much as we all do. They just have other options available if they choose - private healthcare, education or whatever.
 
Shambles said:
Michael Carol <3

Redristribution of wealth in action :D

He may be a nobber but at least he knows how to enjoy money that he did fuck all to acquire.

Possibly not a role model in the wider picture but in his position I would be tempted to do similar I must admit :D
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Didn't he win the lottery? Either way I feel he is a bit of a blueprint for what would happen if you gave a lot of the deserving poor money from the deserving rich. I reckon if you swapped the residents of Chelsea with the residents of Brixton, Chelsea would become a shithole and the schools would become rubbish, because it is very much a mentality thing more than anything. Labour have proven that massive wealth distribuition changes very little and only entrenches people into their current lives even more.
 
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