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Milk doesn't do a body good.

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It's the fact that cows are pumped with steroids and hormones that we in turn consume. I'm just not that comfortable drinking milk when I can get the nutrients in another healthier way.
Clearly you have not read the thread. Not ALL cows are pumped full of hormones etc. There's this thing called ORGANIC DAIRY, and it has the nutrients, without the crap.

*screams in frustration*
 
I think we all do realize that there IS organic milk...there are other factors though..I mean if you can AFFORD organic milk and its available, awesome..but it is more expensive..and at least in my case, Ive never seen it in the stores around here (we dont have any of the more expensive, organic whole foods kinda places). SO in my case, and probably other peoples too, it makes more sense to just forget milk all together.
 
I did read a story about some of the meat packers in NYC or somewhere that used to carry chunks of meat over their shoulder. They developed a breast on the side they carried the meat with. Not good.

But personally I doubt that much of the hormones could cross into the human body especially through oral consumption.

It will take a really good piece of scientific evidence to sway my opinion that milk does more good than harm. Shit I would like more than anything to see the outcomes of the experiments they're running on cows to produce milk closer to human breast milk.

I also think that consuming milk is prolly more humane than eating flesh- but I do both without question, its more than my health is worth to consider removing from my diet.
 
There is still the high levels of antibiotics in conventional cow milk. :\

Deja, you've said that before, about there being no organic mlik in your area, but I find that extremely hard to believe, seeing as every single major grocery store I've ever been to recently sells the stuff, even if they have little else that's organic.

It *is* more expensive but it's like it can't be afforded, unless you drink like a gallon a day.

But, I agree no milk is better than crap milk. That's why I was vegan for a while (I was in boarding school and there was no organic dairy).
 
I think we all do realize that there IS organic milk.
No, you don't understand what is frustrating me. What I am seeing is alot of people blaming MILK for negative effects, when it is NOT milk that is *inherently* responsible for the effects -- but rather pesticide residue, antibiotics, hormones or whatnot (plus just an unhappy unhealthy cow) are the actual cause.

It's fucking stupid to be like 'oh milk is EVIL' when you are talking about pesticides and antiobiotics -- furthermore, not you but several others in this thread seem to be ignoring the fact that organic milk exists because it fucks up their moronic argument that it is actually MILK, not the crap in it, that is horrible for everyone.
 
Agreed- I dont want antibiotics/pesticides or fungusides in my milk. But I try and drink a gallon a day so Im not switching to organic!

The problem is is that Milk is just SUCH A GOOD FOOD! It has a carb/protien ratio of 3:2 which is perfect. The carbs are longer than most other sugar sources (think fruits- u'll get less fat drinking 0% milk than munching on oranges all day). The fats are also benificial in small doses.

Im kinda lucky- I FUCKING HATE cream and butter/marg so the only dairy I eat at all is Milk/Cheese.
 
Ehhh, I love milk I wont stop drinking it. It amazes me how many people say that milk is bad for you or meat or sugars ect..., but a lot of the time these are the same poeple who are puffing on a cig 10 min later, or popping pills, perscription or not. And those arent bad for you? 99% of the things we put into our bodies have something that is not good for our bodies. You cant avoid it... just breathing is taking in bacteria and what-not.
 
Fairnymph you might be right, I havent looked at EVERY single store..but the ones I have shopped at really dont carry the stuff..you may be underestimating the un-evolved-ness of my area. :\
 
Blimey, this thread is still going strong!

I reckon only one in a million will seriously give up dairy for life. It's too easy to just not care about the whole issue. Especially when you're drunk or on drugs and your moral high ground collapses.

That said, I bought organic this week.


How rad was that story about the meat packers.
 
My ancestors are heavily steeped in both dairy and meat. For me, consuming these things is healthy and natural. However, being mostly vegan is also healthy and natural :)

My problem with milk (and meat) is that the vast majority of it comes from animals that are pumped full of chemicals and basically TOURTURED throughout their lives. A completely free-range/organic farm (most likely a commune) would be a different story.
 
fairnymph said:
But what is 'odd' ? What's 'unnatural' ? How do you really decide?

Furthermore, as I have said more than once, ants consume the bodily fluids of aphids.

Milk contains nutrients, just like any other part of an animal -- that's really all there is to it. Seeking out nutrients is very basic; not 'odd'.

Ants also CANNABALIZE. They can lift 6x their body weight.

There was a study done on humans in Africa that proves that humans cannot cannabalize because of a severe lack of nutrients given through this method of seeking nutrients. Can we infer further with this model to include mammals... ?

Yes, I can draw a line here saying what is natural. NO OTHER SPECIES CONSUMES ANOTHER SPECIES' MILK. No, I don't think it is normal for a human [adult] to consume the milk intended for a baby cow. When said cow drinks the milk, he/she grows a considerable size; basically your adult weight in a few weeks. So what can we infer about milk? The proteins and nutrients in milk were perhaps INTENDED for an herbavore looking to grow hundreds of pounds in a matter of weeks that it cannot find elsewhere in its diet.

Look, I'm not personally trying to attack you, milk, or skirt the idea of organic milk. But the realities in our heirarchal society promote the previous age's traditions, and when parallel this with the growing tendencies of an industry to put profit over the people, the peasants indeed suffer for their sheepish consumption of tradition. No country purposely fronts organic milk as the first choice. Our ancestors, as Jimmy said, consumed many animal products in their daily diet, but this isn't natural when we do the same with our diseased milk that's chock full of crap. Yes, there is organic milk, and setting aside my arguments against milk consumption in general, it's pretty obvious that organic milk is only a reactionary by-product of the mass industry polluting people. Back in the day, every milk product was basically organic.

So you see, simple choices such as supporting the milking of cows will come around full circle, unless we live under a responsible society and government, but until then, perhaps you should take responsibility as your own, because one person's decisions affects any trend.

Oh, and I'd be very interested to know why you consider saturated fats and cholesterol a "good thing".
 
NO OTHER SPECIES CONSUMES ANOTHER SPECIES' MILK.
Why are you contradicting yourself? Ants ARE another species. Aphid milk is another bodily fluid, like cow's milk.And yes, they are very different animals (humans and ants), but that's not the point -- the point is that we're not alone. But even if we were, you can't say that because ONLY humans do it, it's 'not natural'. That is simply NOT a valid argument, because, as I have said numerous times, humans do MANY things that no other species does.

Back in the day, every milk product was basically organic.
Certainly, and I wish we were still 'back in the day'. But modern organic milk IS available and you could even argue that it's good to buy it and support that industry -- because it, as you say, goes against mass industry crap.

So you see, simple choices such as supporting the milking of cows will come around full circle, unless we live under a responsible society and government, but until then, perhaps you should take responsibility as your own, because one person's decisions affects any trend.
I've always seen that. I'm not sure why you are trying to argue with me on this topic. I have many qualms with our modern world; I frequently wish I were a tree. You saw that I myself said I would most like to have my own cow one day. Until then I buy organic dairy -- so I am very much taking responbility and positively affecting the world, in that sense.

As for saturated fats (btw this does not include trans fat), it is not a well established theory so I will simply lay it out here as just a theory. I think polyunsaturated fats are far more harmful (although trans fat = the absolute worst) than sat fats. The reasoning behind this is based on chemistry, as well as history. Polyunsat fats are very readily oxidized -- generally refined plant oils, which are what is mostly consumed have already undergone substantial oxidation during refinement. This oxidation creates free radicals. There is further oxidation in the body and further free radical production. Free radicals as you probably know are extremely toxic and lead to many problems from artherosclerosis to cancer etc; they are also a major cause of premature aging. Sat fats are much, much more stable to oxidation, and so produce far fewer free radicals.

Now if you look at humans historically, until very recently (past 200 years of so), our primary fats were satured (animal fat, palm oil, coconut oil) or monunsaturated (olive oil). It is a very modern thing to consume high quantities of polyunsat plant oils -- because these come from mass crops and mass refining, and not readily available in more 'primitive' cultures. Obviously there are many reasons that heart disease, and cancer, and so on are more of a problem now than they were 200 years ago, but I believe that massive consumption of polyunsat fats contributes significantly, and much more so than sat fats.\

As for cholesterol, I'm still working on that one; I am merely open at this point to the idea that cholesterol is not as evil was we think it is...it's not a topic I have put as much thought and research into, but when I do I'd be glad to let you know what I conclude.
 
I HATE milk! It is the worst tasting drink anyone could ever come up with. I am glad it is not good for you and I am not surprised either, something that taste so bad can't possibly be good for you.
 
^^get outta here ;)

*bump*

This is a very interesting thread . It's funny how in parts of Asia, particularly the Chinese only drink milk as a purgative. I myself LOVE milk.....fresh whole milk, goats milk, cheese, etc. If only I had access to unpasteurized unhomogenized milk from a trusted source, organic or otherwise, I would be happy. The only thing I make sure of is to drink milk ALONE and not combine it with any other food (other proteins, starches, etc.) as it is the MIXING of milk and these other foods that inhibit proper digestion, absorption, cause myriad allergies and such.

Milk should be consumed alone, within hours of eating any other kind of food.
Man I love milk.......=D Definitely one of my weaknesses.
 
As for saturated fats (btw this does not include trans fat), it is not a well established theory so I will simply lay it out here as just a theory. I think polyunsaturated fats are far more harmful (although trans fat = the absolute worst) than sat fats. The reasoning behind this is based on chemistry, as well as history. Polyunsat fats are very readily oxidized -- generally refined plant oils, which are what is mostly consumed have already undergone substantial oxidation during refinement. This oxidation creates free radicals. There is further oxidation in the body and further free radical production. Free radicals as you probably know are extremely toxic and lead to many problems from artherosclerosis to cancer etc; they are also a major cause of premature aging. Sat fats are much, much more stable to oxidation, and so produce far fewer free radicals.

Now if you look at humans historically, until very recently (past 200 years of so), our primary fats were satured (animal fat, palm oil, coconut oil) or monunsaturated (olive oil). It is a very modern thing to consume high quantities of polyunsat plant oils -- because these come from mass crops and mass refining, and not readily available in more 'primitive' cultures. Obviously there are many reasons that heart disease, and cancer, and so on are more of a problem now than they were 200 years ago, but I believe that massive consumption of polyunsat fats contributes significantly, and much more so than sat fats.\

Agree 100%. Saturated Fats > Monounsatured Fats > Polyunsaturated Fats....if I can help it. It's so funny how the average human being upon hearing the word "saturated fat" immediately emits a flashing exclamation point in head with a huge WARNING. If only people knew how much worse it is to consume mono/poly/trans fat , and how saturated fat can actually be good for you but that's another thread altogether.
 
Milk just like any other food, has both good and bad times for consumtion. Saying that one thing is "bad for you" is pretty ignorant.
 
This article below explains why u should reduce or eliminate milk from your diet, written by Dr Mercola. very interesting read.

http://www.mercola.com/article/milk/no_milk.htm


Don't Drink Your Milk!

Processing Is the Problem

The path that transforms healthy milk products into allergens and carcinogens begins with modern feeding methods that substitute high-protein, soy-based feeds for fresh green grass and breeding methods to produce cows with abnormally large pituitary glands so that they produce three times more milk than the old fashioned scrub cow. These cows need antibiotics to keep them well.

Their milk is then pasteurized so that all valuable enzymes are destroyed (lactase for the assimilation of lactose; galactase for the assimilation of galactose; phosphatase for the assimilation of calcium).

Literally dozens of other precious enzymes are destroyed in the pasteurization process. Without them, milk is very difficult to digest. The human pancreas is not always able to produce these enzymes; over-stress of the pancreas can lead to diabetes and other diseases.

The butterfat of commercial milk is homogenized, subjecting it to rancidity. Even worse, butterfat may be removed altogether. Skim milk is sold as a health food, but the truth is that butter-fat is in milk for a reason.

Without it the body cannot absorb and utilize the vitamins and minerals in the water fraction of the milk. Along with valuable trace minerals and short chain fatty acids, butterfat is America's best source of preformed vitamin A.

Synthetic vitamin D, known to be toxic to the liver, is added to replace the natural vitamin D complex in butterfat. Butterfat also contains re-arranged acids which have strong anti-carcinogenic properties.

Non-fat dried milk is added to 1% and 2% milk. Unlike the cholesterol in fresh milk, which plays a variety of health promoting roles, the cholesterol in non-fat dried milk is oxidized and it is this rancid cholesterol that promotes heart disease.

Like all spray dried products, non-fat dried milk has a high nitrite content. Non-fat dried milk and sweetened condensed milk are the principle dairy products in third world countries; use of ultra high temperature pasteurized milk is widespread in Europe.

Other Factors Regarding Milk

Milk and refined sugar make two of the largest contributions to food induced ill health in our country. That may seem like an overly harsh statement, but when one examines the evidence, this is a reasonable conclusion.

The recent approval by the FDA of the use of BGH (Bovine Growth Hormone) by dairy farmers to increase their milk production only worsens the already sad picture.

BGH causes an increase in an insulin-like growth factor (IGF-1) in the milk of treated cows. IGF-1 survives milk pasteurization and human intestinal digestion. It can be directly absorbed into the human bloodstream, particularly in infants.

It is highly likely that IGF-1 promotes the transformation of human breast cells to cancerous forms. IGF-1 is also a growth factor for already cancerous breast and colon cancer cells, promoting their progression and invasiveness.

It is also possible for us to absorb the BGH directly from the milk. This will cause further IGF-1 production by our own cells.

BGH will also decrease the body fat of cows. Unfortunately, the body fat of cows is already contaminated with a wide range of carcinogens, pesticides, dioxin, and antibiotic residues. When the cows have less body fat, these toxic substances are then transported into the cows' milk.

BGH also causes the cows to have an increase in breast infections for which they must receive additional antibiotics.

Prior to BGH, 38%of milk sampled nationally was already contaminated by illegal residues of antibiotics and animal drugs. This will only increase with the use of BGH. One can only wonder what the long term complications will be for drinking milk that has a 50% chance it is contaminated with antibiotics.

There is also a problem with a protein enzyme called xanthine oxidase which is in cow's milk. Normally, proteins are broken down once you digest them.

However, when milk is homogenized, small fat globules surround the xanthine oxidase and it is absorbed intact into your blood stream. There is some very compelling research demonstrating clear associations with this absorbed enzyme and increased risks of heart disease.

Ear specialists frequently insert tubes into the ear drums of infants to treat recurrent ear infections. It has replaced the previously popular tonsillectomy to become the number one surgery in the country.

Unfortunately, most of these specialists don't realize that over 50% of these children will improve and have no further ear infections if they just stop drinking their milk.

This is a real tragedy. Not only is the $3,000 spent on the surgery wasted, but there are some recent articles supporting the likelihood that most children who have this procedure will have long term hearing losses.

It is my strong recommendation that you discontinue your milk products. If you find this difficult, I would start for several weeks only, and reevaluate how you feel at that time.

This would include ALL dairy, including skim milk and Lact-Aid milk, cheese, yogurt, and ice cream. If you feel better after several weeks you can attempt to rotate small amounts of one form of milk every four days.

You probably are wondering what will happen to your bones and teeth if you stop milk. The majority of the world's population takes in less than half the calcium we are told we need and yet they have strong bones and healthy teeth.

Cows' milk is rich in phosphorous which can combine with calcium -- and can prevent you from absorbing the calcium in milk. The milk protein also accelerates calcium excretion from the blood through the kidneys.

This is also true when you eat large amount of meat and poultry products. Vegetarians will need about 50% less calcium than meat eaters because they lose much less calcium in their urine.

It is possible to obtain all your calcium from dark green vegetables (where do you think the cow gets their's from?). The darker the better. Cooked collard greens and kale are especially good. If you or your child is unable to take in large amounts of green vegetables, you might want to supplement with calcium.

If you can swallow pills, we have an excellent, inexpensive source called Calcium Citrate, which has a number of other minerals which your body requires to build up maximally healthy bone.

It is much better than a simple calcium tablet. You can take about 1,000 mg a day. For those who already suffer from osteoporosis, the best calcium supplement is microcrystalline hydroxyapatite.

It is also important that you take vitamin D in the winter months from November to March. Normally your skin converts sunshine to vitamin D, but the sunshine levels in the winter are very low unless you visit Florida or Mexico type areas.

Most people obtain their vitamin D from milk in the winter; so if you stop it, please make sure you are taking calcium with vitamin D or a multi vitamin with vitamin D to prevent bone thinning.

Most people are not aware that the milk of most mammals varies considerably in its composition. For example, the milk of goats, elephants, cows, camels, wolves, and walruses show marked differences, in their content of fats, protein, sugar, and minerals. Each was designed to provide optimum nutrition to the young of the respective species. Each is different from human milk.

In general, most animals are exclusively breast-fed until they have tripled their birth weight, which in human infants occurs around the age of one year. In no mammalian species, except for the human (and domestic cat) is milk consumption continued after the weaning period. Calves thrive on cow milk. Cow's milk is designed for calves.

Cow's milk is the number one allergic food in this country. It has been well documented as a cause in diarrhea, cramps, bloating, gas, gastrointestinal bleeding, iron-deficiency anemia, skin rashes, atherosclerosis, and acne.

It is the primary cause of recurrent ear infections in children. It has also been linked to insulin dependent diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, infertility, and leukemia.

Hopefully, you will reconsider your position on using milk as a form of nourishment. Small amounts of milk or milk products taken infrequently, will likely cause little or no problems for most people.

However, the American Dairy Board has done a very effective job of marketing this product. Most people believe they need to consume large, daily quantities of milk to achieve good health. NOTHING could be further from the truth.

Public health officials and the National Dairy Council have worked together in this country to make it very difficult to obtain wholesome, fresh, raw dairy products. Nevertheless, they can be found with a little effort. In some states, you can buy raw milk directly from farmers.

Whole, pasteurized, non-homogenized milk from cows raised on organic feed is now available in many gourmet shops and health food stores. It can be cultured to restore enzyme content, at least partially. Cultured buttermilk is often more easily digested than regular milk; it is an excellent product to use in baking.

Many shops now carry whole cream that is merely pasteurized (not ultra pasteurized like most commercial cream); diluted with water, it is delicious on cereal and a good substitute for those allergic to milk.

Traditionally made creme fraiche (European style sour cream), it also has a high enzyme content.
 
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