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Miscellaneous Microdosing possibly overplayed, not as effective as macrodosing, or at all

I like threshold doses too, it's fun to tweak the day just a little bit sometimes.

I've never been comfortable with the potential for heart valve damage with chronic dosing - whether it be micro or macro or something in between. I think trips are best spread out a fair bit, even if they're weak.
 
I like quarter doses and a bit less too, I do not think my heart minds if I do it once or twice a week for decades. ( I am now legally a senior citizen ) and have been doing it since I was 17 with a few years off here and there. (maybe about 15 out of 50 with no lsd forays)
 
This is the future of psychedelics as medicine. You are looking at what it will be like not so far into the future when psychedelics fall back down to Earth and their medicinal properties are finally restored to their righteous place in human societies.

What we are talking about is the first pilot studies into daily psychedelic usage at functional everyday dosages. This is a conversation on psychedelics as self dispensed prescriptions, with a view to potentially being dispensed as an adjunct to other therapeutic interventions. This is a good news! It shouldnt be taken lightly! We cant be too critical or else resign the growing public perception and confidence in psychedelics back to that dark place where they have been for a long time. A certain level of hype is needed.

I dont think there ever has been a decent trial done on microdosing? I think the data available is on self blinding? I was watching a video from Imperial College London who had ran a self blinding study on microdosing and while the results were great in terms of efficacy, they were not otherwordly and what match the current mainstream publicity about microdosing as a therapeutic treatment. I think Imperial College London were the first ones to launch such a trial only recently aiming to rid much of the anecdotal evidence, while self blinding, which speaks to the issue at hand without actually solving it. It is though a step up from previous attempts and perhaps enough to create a base for funding for a more elaborate and appropriate clinical study.

I think its good. This is what is needed to get psychedelics out there and widely accepted as everyday medicine like all others currently prescribed. When psychedelics are shut away just for heroic experiences and life changing transformations in consciousness, you are not opening the door to those who just want to know what is going on without letting go of the ground they walk on. The amount of people who otherwise may have scoffed at psychedelics are now taking them everyday. These people are then promoting these tools in the mainstream and a handful of those have the financial resources to contribute greatly to the mission to make psychedelics medicine again.

I see people talking about "hipsters". Tim Leary was a hipster, he was just the first generation. Ram Dass, Terence McKenna, Rupert Sheldrake etc all the same :) Todays variation on the first generation is no different in comparison. And it was these groups who fuelled the movements that branched out into society which made changes we consider normal today. It is your middle-class priveleged kids who get absorbed by a particular path influenced by paradigmatic cultural influences fairly nuanced to their sociodemographic origins who end up pioneering the research we see today, as well as awareness, progress, innovating etc. It was the case for the most part in the beginning and its no different now.

Love it or hate it, they are the key bearers to the future of psychedelics. When the pioneers of the first few generations pass, which is soon coming upon us, likeminded individuals not from so different roots, will take their place. Although you cannot replicate their individual nuance, you can say with a high degree of confidence the positions of influence and potential lay with those from such backgrounds and this is where you tend to find your hipsters. I say for the most part, there will obviously be exceptions and there are no rules as to who or what is a hipster. My understanding however of the sociological, anthropological and cultural context points towards a particular sociodemographic group, but maybe I am wrong? Academic opportunities are now opening more to all walks of life and the psychedelic science scene especially is the same. Dont forget the fields of psychology, psychiatry are now in demand more than ever and their career paths are now way more accessible in comparison to, say, half a century ago. You would never think of becoming a successful psychologist not that long ago unless you were born into that career path being an option. Freudian psychoanalysis proves this point quite well with the analyst almost deliberately placed above the patient, perhaps also based on the social and cultural paradigms of that time? It doesnt seem off to suggest that, in my opinion. Anyway, things have got better.

All that being said, it is how it is.
I dont think these areas will ever be fully released on the masses in terms of access to the pathways into the heart of the science and cultural progress. These areas are, whether you like it or not, composed of such defining qualities. Hippies/hipsters or not, you have yourself an expanding modern psychedelic world. That aint a bad thing ;)
 
the future cometh
I have stopped guessing with too much buy in for the guesses - i suppose we'll see

in the mean time, legal weed in canada is a very big kindness.
 
Snafu of the Forest said:
I've long suspected this.

Personally my experience with micro dosing is:
1. took too little, no effect
2. took too much now I'm slightly tripping

I never really enjoyed it myself and always scoffed at microdosing as it might fuck with my tolerance on my trip next weekend
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Same thing here snafu - benefits outweighed by fucking your tolerance for a real trip.
 
Yeah I saw this when Imperial did the initial study, no more effective than placebo.

Better off using a low threshold dose you just can just about feel that won't interfere with your day.

Then Macro for days off.
 
Placebo? Lol. I have been microdosing on and off for 2 years and is one of the best decisions of my life. As real as the screen you are using to read this. Sure it´s not for everybody, nor for all time, but the potential is beyond obvious.

Big pharma dont have nothing succulent to win with psychs, to me it´s obvious why they would want to water it down

And yeah, during on phases you lost quite the magic of full dosage trips but just take 2 weeks off and you are ready to
 
There definitely is a point about active placebo, I consider antidepressants to be such (saying that while still being hooked on SSRIs after years of stupidly taking them w/o real benefits) - remember, some aren't that much better than just placebo; antidepressant activity is mostly checked for first in animals and there in the forced swimming test. They put drugged and non drugged control rats into water and check their behavior. Scopolamine tested positive as a rapid acting antidepressant - never done real scopo but extrapolated from one halfway-accidental clozapine exposure (untitrated full dose of somebody who's been put on it as last resort, just gave me one of her pills when I forgot to bring a sleeping aid..) and one voluntary 500 or 600mg (don't remember) diphenhydramine experiment, it won't be exactly antidepressive like dissociatives can be and even for them I doubt a real neurochemical-only based response but the MIND being responsible for its own antidepressant activity and thus secondary chemical changes. Like a healthy shock can do, too. Memory inhibition, on the other side, should probably pass that forced swimming test. I'm sure they'll know that themselves and do some other testing, otherwise they shouldn't and I should be qualified lol. But it's big pharma at the end of the day.

Depression is the inability to push yourself out of depressive thought loops and emotions, and drugs do exactly that, give you a push. That can be in any direction, as seen with antipsychotic 'augmentation' of SSRI regimen. Antidopaminergics are notorious for their dysphoric, anhedonia-inducing effects etc.pp. with exception of some very low doses like 50mg sulpiride but even that does raise prolactin which isn't what one wants so I threw it off. In depressants it might be active nocebo activity. Tried many of them so I have a base to speculate from.
I indeed love to see that psychedelics are becoming more accepted by science and the general public, but also fear they'd fail some sort of rigid testing. There are too many interesting and promising chems out which have been shelved by big pharm or the FDA while we have toxic shit being thrown at even children like candies.
Anxiety is a mayor problem imho, and this could be counter-acted by a very low dose (sub-dissociative, sub-psychotomimetic) of a long acting NMDA antagonist. Unfortunately we don't have a single selective one medicinally available even when their toxicity probably pales in relation to e.g. haloperidol or even potentially valproic acid (liver failure, e.g.). I had mayor anxiety issues with psychedelics, in my teens I've dabbled a bit with shrooms and out of like 6 attempts, 5 were just anxiety. Granted, one was an overdose but also with low doses of good mushies and they were both from reliable sources and before the rise of RC shit. Yet recently I checked in again, with a low dose (one 100mcg? blotter, after 2h another one) while on a low dose (120mg) of XR DXM. The anxiety was not to speak of, when remembering how terribly my earlier experiments ended. Might be coincidence because I'm older now but my hunch is that it helped. Might have abolished long term benefits tho. Further experiments are needed, I'm currently considering DMT as this one I could acquire and extract/measure myself properly.

What I and probably most fear about, is catching an 'endless bad trip' and end up in a ward, possibly for longer time. Yet I never found a single sample which didn't involve other drugs which very probably were the cause/origin for the problems. Cannabis, on the other side, has clear links to some stuff in some individuals afaik, and this again is something I fear might end up badly regarding the current legalization wave. That they start at the wrong end. Psychedelics are very probably much safer than cannabis (acute overdose/habitual use) is for certain susceptible yet unknowing subjects is..
 
Microdosing works for me, it’s a shame it doesn’t for everyone. I get a very noticeable lift in mood, I feel my thoughts working in a note unique way then when I’m totally sober (example: I find myself thinking in rhymes, I’m not as quick to lose my temper)
This article said that both the micro dose and the placebo group experienced positive effects. I don’t see how that means it’s not effective. The way I see it is that if you experience positive effects then it’s working.
Placebo is a powerful drug as well so I’m not surprised the placebo group also experienced positive effects.
 
@plumbus-nine
it sounds like you have a pretty good handle on 'depression'. I think tripping out of the loops is helpful, and can be part of a practice that de-emphasizes the intensity context and presence, enabling a brighter continuity with adequate context and presence.
when I am with someone who is caught up in loops, they seem very locked into a self context, very present but only in the loop as it were. Mostly they do not want to exit that presence and continuity - and cannot imagine it lighter or connected to other issues than the looping ones.
 
pupnik said:
@plumbus-nine
it sounds like you have a pretty good handle on 'depression'. I think tripping out of the loops is helpful, and can be part of a practice that de-emphasizes the intensity context and presence, enabling a brighter continuity with adequate context and presence.
when I am with someone who is caught up in loops, they seem very locked into a self context, very present but only in the loop as it were. Mostly they do not want to exit that presence and continuity - and cannot imagine it lighter or connected to other issues than the looping ones.
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Somehow I seem to having dedicated my life to the exploration of such topics, I just need it to accept, and the harder part, find a place/position where it might be helpful in whatever way - these things are notoriously closed walls for people with real experiences.

Yeah, loops. Any time I escape one, only find myself in the next one, which might also be a new iteration of the previous one - I've only been completely free during brief periods of so-called intoxication with mostly dissociatives, before I got addicted to pharms and opioids. But this freedom, my first encounter was a stupid mid-dose-range DXM experiment as a teen, think even while in a psych ward but an open one - this freedom, it is not just the mother of all addiction, I call it life itself and I crave it like nothing else in remote comparison. Freedom. It seems like a fork in the personal pathway, where you either decide to take the blue or the red pill, and only the blue one can be taken repeatedly. But I never understood how people can choose that one. Quite some seem to be that way.

But also I was ever since I can remember somebody who was ... different. I don't know that, probably will never know for sure, have had much too less exchange with fellow people yet, but looking at society and everyday life I'm pretty fucking sure that.. something's off. I need to constantly question what I'm doing, where I'm doing that, etc.. like I am my own observer. This was present before any drug, but it get lost whilst in depressive loops.

They wanted to put me into special schools for 'gifted' people, and money was the reason against. Dunno what would have happened, my life was fucked seriously by that decision but bad thought way to go, need stay focused in here right & now..
Need to find my creativity again, I don't wanna believe that I did damage with drug use, not lasting one, the brain's too plastic for that but currently something new is off, and I don't like that one.. Somehow I suspect psychedelics might be the missing link, seeing all the stuff about neurogenesis and new synapses etc.pp. from 5ht2a agonism. Maybe not, but this is what I'm trying to figure out before it's too late..

:)
 
plumbus-nine said:
Somehow I seem to having dedicated my life to the exploration of such topics, I just need it to accept, and the harder part, find a place/position where it might be helpful in whatever way - these things are notoriously closed walls for people with real experiences.

Yeah, loops. Any time I escape one, only find myself in the next one, which might also be a new iteration of the previous one - I've only been completely free during brief periods of so-called intoxication with mostly dissociatives, before I got addicted to pharms and opioids. But this freedom, my first encounter was a stupid mid-dose-range DXM experiment as a teen, think even while in a psych ward but an open one - this freedom, it is not just the mother of all addiction, I call it life itself and I crave it like nothing else in remote comparison. Freedom. It seems like a fork in the personal pathway, where you either decide to take the blue or the red pill, and only the blue one can be taken repeatedly. But I never understood how people can choose that one. Quite some seem to be that way.

But also I was ever since I can remember somebody who was ... different. I don't know that, probably will never know for sure, have had much too less exchange with fellow people yet, but looking at society and everyday life I'm pretty fucking sure that.. something's off. I need to constantly question what I'm doing, where I'm doing that, etc.. like I am my own observer. This was present before any drug, but it get lost whilst in depressive loops.

They wanted to put me into special schools for 'gifted' people, and money was the reason against. Dunno what would have happened, my life was fucked seriously by that decision but bad thought way to go, need stay focused in here right & now..
Need to find my creativity again, I don't wanna believe that I did damage with drug use, not lasting one, the brain's too plastic for that but currently something new is off, and I don't like that one.. Somehow I suspect psychedelics might be the missing link, seeing all the stuff about neurogenesis and new synapses etc.pp. from 5ht2a agonism. Maybe not, but this is what I'm trying to figure out before it's too late..

:)
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It could be autism or something along those lines. Its pretty common for people on the autism spectrum (we all are but some are further along than others) to get stuck in negative feedback loops. I did some research on developmental issues like autism a while ago and the course I took talked specifically about people with autism getting stucked in rigid patterns of thinking/behaviour. Past experiences affect people with autism more than those lesser on the spectrum and this is, again, related to how "sticky" the patterns of thinking/behaving are. So that could explain the natural predisposition to find yourself refreshing one negative thought loop with another. It may not be specific to the trip or anything related. It may be how by default you process experiences and how said experiences dovetail with another setting up an infinite loop. Breaking free of this is hard because, well, autism isnt something you can rid yourself of like depression, anxiety, psychotic episodes etc. I think people find this hard to accept and partly why could be down to them not having had a diagnosis or even be aware there is differences in how they act, think, feel etc compared to others. I say this because I experience similiar things tripping or not and my family has the genetic predisposition to autism. Something much bigger is afoot for me I feel and coming of age (grand old age of under 35) has made me see that. I blamed depression, anxiety, psychotic breaks, drugs, abuse, keeping bad company etc. All those do play a role but there is something behind this still. A genetic/biological component that exists before all and any social/cultural factors. Pretty much everyone in my family is on the spectrum and when I say that, I mean considerably more than your "normal" neurotypical person, some within the family who are way higher than others in the family. Half are extremely high functioning and intelligent, the other half are extremely low functioning and intellectually impaired. I havent seen one of them not go through the same rumination, self doubt, negative thought loops and consequently some form of self deprecation. I dont think any of them have even tried psychedelics like me yet they exhibit the same experiences.

For all those interested, this is the latest study done by Imperial on microdosing;

www.imperial.ac.uk

Citizen scientists show placebo effect may explain benefits of microdosing | Imperial News | Imperial College London

The psychological benefits linked with taking regular, small doses of psychedelic drugs are likely the result of users’ expectations, a study suggests
www.imperial.ac.uk www.imperial.ac.uk
 
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@plumbus-nine
something being off is one way of describing basic unsatisfactoriness of life.
it is not a wiring problem in the brain nor a thing to fix.
you just notice it, and probably look for it.
any moment I look for unsatisfactoriness I can find it,

animals need a certain degree of waking discomfort or they will not move, hunt, graze mate or whatever.

life goads the living - it's very basic. nothing wrong if you notice, kinda lonely when all the people around you pretend not to notice unsatisfactoriness - or always notice a different kind of it than you do, or worse, they point you out as the problem, and you could be doing everything perfectly just not in synch with them and boof - psychotherapy and drugs again.
 
@pupnik, you're so right in that - unsatisfactoriness describes my freaking life. I've been bored for as long as I can remember, and this is like being 3 years old and having strange CEVs - possibly induced by cough syrup but that's not for sure.
I've escaped several times, but failed to navigate life completely all alone without anybody understanding me or being close to me or having had the even most basic social training (I was being isolated the first 7 years and then thrown into a ward full of seriously crazy kids) and those pretending to 'care' instead controlling... got some money, saved it, lost it when my first and only ex threw me out to street after 9 years.. now I'm here and off. Another escape loop again?

Sorry for a pretty short summarum, I've just wrote a quite lengthy text, sth which before opiods wouldn't have induced the slightest exhaustion, but now I'm exhausted and off it all the time.. I guess it's my body calling but I'm absolutely unsure.
 
Listening said:
I can't say that I can relate to much about the hipsters, but I'm suspicious about such a holier than thou attitude; and also about discarding everything about a group of persons because of their chosen fashion or style.
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Well, if the shoe fits...
schizoinfective said:
I definitely think there is something to be said about threshold doses of psychedelics being beneficial for depression without a "trip". This is what I considers microdosing tbh
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But that's not really what the advocates say microdosing is, is it? People are talking about taking sub-threshold doses as a kind of nootropic, among other things. It is not really that implausible that this would happen (and it is not a new idea: see "Hofmann Cocktail") but it's also a situation that is ripe for placebo effects. @plumbus-nine is right that studies need to have an active placebo. This is a serious problem in psychedelic research because you're kind of either tripping or you are not but in the case of microdosing it wouldn't be that hard, just giving something that is vaguely psychoactive as a placebo.

Bottom line is we need more research. But the hipsters, redditors, Rogan fans, TED Talkers, "I Am Very Smart" Rick and Morty fans, and Silicon Valley types that are out there promoting microdosing invoke a deep sense of disgust in me and that makes me suspicious of whatever they are hawking and that's a heuristic that has served me well so far tbh.
 
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plumbus-nine said:
@pupnik, you're so right in that - unsatisfactoriness describes my freaking life. I've been bored for as long as I can remember, and this is like being 3 years old and having strange CEVs - possibly induced by cough syrup but that's not for sure.
I've escaped several times, but failed to navigate life completely all alone without anybody understanding me or being close to me or having had the even most basic social training (I was being isolated the first 7 years and then thrown into a ward full of seriously crazy kids) and those pretending to 'care' instead controlling... got some money, saved it, lost it when my first and only ex threw me out to street after 9 years.. now I'm here and off. Another escape loop again?

Sorry for a pretty short summarum, I've just wrote a quite lengthy text, sth which before opiods wouldn't have induced the slightest exhaustion, but now I'm exhausted and off it all the time.. I guess it's my body calling but I'm absolutely unsure.
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well the thing is, we all have unsatisfactoriness as the basic backdrop to all consciousness, however, if what you are doing in the moment - what you are experiencing and how you are responding to that - overrides the basic backdrop and provides some balance in your life.
however, it is quite painful and very real, if you focusing on this basic unsatisfactoriness and comparing your life to another person who is not looking at the baseline.
In some zen practice, staring at a blank wall and making space for unsatisfactoriness in your life is the core method of healing or attainment.
 
SKL said:
Well, if the shoe fits...

But that's not really what the advocates say microdosing is, is it? People are talking about taking sub-threshold doses as a kind of nootropic, among other things. It is not really that implausible that this would happen (and it is not a new idea: see "Hofmann Cocktail") but it's also a situation that is ripe for placebo effects. @plumbus-nine is right that studies need to have an active placebo. This is a serious problem in psychedelic research because you're kind of either tripping or you are not but in the case of microdosing it wouldn't be that hard, just giving something that is vaguely psychoactive as a placebo.

Bottom line is we need more research. But the hipsters, Rogan fans, TED Talkers, "I Am Very Smart" Rick and Morty fans, and Silicon Valley types that are out there promoting microdosing invoke a deep sense of disgust in me and that makes me suspicious of whatever they are hawking and that's a heuristic that has served me well so far tbh.
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Psychedelic capitalism.
This is the development of that market.
I am not a fan but I try hard not to tar people/entities based on stigma/labels. Its representative of the world we live in and not nuanced to blame of certain individuals, groups, populations etc. There is a market for everything and the first part is profit.

How DO you promote psychedelics today? It is thanks to this burgeoning area full of all what you mentioned that we now have a modern psychedelic science community at all. Beforehand you were just a fringe scientist/academic whose works only reached the fringes of society and now you are a star in both fields and widely supported where your work is everywhere it once needed to be.

The big issue is the intent behind everything. This is something that is already a concern in these communities but money is money. How can you argue when your biggest sources of funding and comprehensive support and exposure where it is necessary comes from selling out to corporate/private investment?
 
There’s no benefit from microdosing IMO. Low dosing can do some positive things though, particularly DMT for migraines, and Mescaline as a light long term antidepressant.

But yea I agree, it’s all BS. It’s for people that don’t have the balls to get real with themselves. I guess if it leads to more acceptance and use though I’m all in.

-GC
 
I prefer very low doses where there is a distinct effect. When I was less experienced, I disliked those doses because I felt it gave me side effects without positive effects, but over time I have stopped getting many side effects from psychedelics even in large doses, especially LSD. So I just get a very light, transparent positive effect without any negatives.

As for true microdosing, ie, sub-perceptual level, I have had mixed results, but nothing I couldn't chalk up to placebo. On the other hand, most nootropics fall into the same realm, yet there is solid research to show that there are real effects in the brain. It's just very subtle and its effectiveness is dependent largely on your set and setting. For example, with piracetam, if I take some and go on a hike or sit around watching TV, I notice nothing. But if I take it and have a very intense work day where I am multitasking between 5 projects, I notice a distinct and real effect.

Don't underestimate the placebo effect, it is very powerful.
 
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