Invalid Usename
Bluelighter
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Huh?
Why don't you take the time to read through page 3 of this thread? 8)
Why don't you take the time to read through page 3 of this thread? 8)
-
OD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | Tryptamino
Methamphetamine Myth Maddness
- Thread starter Invalid Usename
- Start date
paradoxcycle
Bluelight Crew
Originally posted by MaliceNwunderland
...because that other thread full of your intellectual posturing was closed (with good reason).
...because that other thread full of your intellectual posturing was closed (with good reason).
MaliceNwunderland; the thread you are referring to was closed because I asked everyone (including you) to refrain from the personal insults and take your argument to PM and you completely ignored me. Do not bring your beef with IU to this thread. If you have a problem with him, take it to PM or e-mail. If I have to step in again I will not hesitate to hand out formal warnings.
in valid use name, i have comments on some of your points earlier on in the thread (i do not read attentively though, so i apologize for any misjudgement/irrelevancies i bring up in advance...)
to start with, i think meth makes a pretty questionable recreational drug. i guess in my mind a given drug's recreational value associates with certain shared/collective activities. because of its effects (based on multiple observations), i do not see how it's all that great to socialize on.
next, i have a bit of a problem with a distinction between recreational use and abuse. it could be that i'm confused about definitions, though. i believe a daily use (provided there's some detox time at least 1-2 days a week), with frequent (every few weeks) breaks (for at least a week) is less harmful than an occasional binge that leads to staying up for 12 days straight..
to follow up i'm gonna be the obvious guy for awhile. meth is all about tolerance. inexperienced users overdose their first time and experience psychotic episodes simply because they do too much... the only way to be absolutely safe from this scenario, is to start with amounts so small, any rewarding sensations will barely even be felt.
which, by the way is another reason whymeth does not make a good recreational drug, imho.
to start with, i think meth makes a pretty questionable recreational drug. i guess in my mind a given drug's recreational value associates with certain shared/collective activities. because of its effects (based on multiple observations), i do not see how it's all that great to socialize on.
next, i have a bit of a problem with a distinction between recreational use and abuse. it could be that i'm confused about definitions, though. i believe a daily use (provided there's some detox time at least 1-2 days a week), with frequent (every few weeks) breaks (for at least a week) is less harmful than an occasional binge that leads to staying up for 12 days straight..
to follow up i'm gonna be the obvious guy for awhile. meth is all about tolerance. inexperienced users overdose their first time and experience psychotic episodes simply because they do too much... the only way to be absolutely safe from this scenario, is to start with amounts so small, any rewarding sensations will barely even be felt.
which, by the way is another reason whymeth does not make a good recreational drug, imho.
Glory Hole
Bluelighter
I think I would be an example of a meth user that uses it infrequently. Part of the reason is because I don't have hook-ups to the drug in which I can get it real easily. Since I have to take a drive to LA to get it that also makes it a bit of a problem. I don't really fiend or anything like that but I do enjoy it. I don't think I would be able to handle not sleeping for 3 days very well. That might be another reason for why I don't do it very often.
Kandy K
Ex-Bluelighter
[EDITED- Please use your Journal for this]
-Pdx
-Pdx
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invalid usename,
you mentioned your interest in facts rather than observations.
well these are observations based on some facts
(sorry as close as i can get):
this is a bare minimum:
on benzos: although i do not agree with the idea of using these to relax, it's better to take a small dose (provided absolutely no sleep deprivation prior to this)and induce sleep than to miss the next night's rest. (insomnia sticks to you once it starts, developing a life of its own; if you know what it's like, you'll agree it's better not to risk it).
that said, the use of benzo's at higher doses does not seem good, or even effective for that matter).
other things are helpful, such as: gauging oneself (for instance, regulating your breathing can do wonders to calm one down)
and goes without saying, eating well + healthy
all these things are extremely important, it's these precautions and not the frequent or unfrequent use that will keep one from losing their grip.
you mentioned your interest in facts rather than observations.
well these are observations based on some facts
(sorry as close as i can get):this is a bare minimum:
- 1. if not a single night of sleep is lost;
- 2. at least a bit more than a recommended amount of h20 is taken daily
- 3. necessary supp's, & vitamins (can't stress the importance of vb, magnesium etc) are also taken daily'
= NO tweaker delusions of any kind;
- failing to do above.......
= watch out for the onset
on benzos: although i do not agree with the idea of using these to relax, it's better to take a small dose (provided absolutely no sleep deprivation prior to this)and induce sleep than to miss the next night's rest. (insomnia sticks to you once it starts, developing a life of its own; if you know what it's like, you'll agree it's better not to risk it).
that said, the use of benzo's at higher doses does not seem good, or even effective for that matter).
other things are helpful, such as: gauging oneself (for instance, regulating your breathing can do wonders to calm one down)
and goes without saying, eating well + healthy
all these things are extremely important, it's these precautions and not the frequent or unfrequent use that will keep one from losing their grip.
despite/to add to everything i mentioned earlier, i agree with your (invalid usename's) theory on personality types wholeheartedly.
in all fairness, i might be leaning a bit towards the o-c category just cause of my history of eating disorders (although i have never noticed myself develop any cravings or signs of addiction (other than food) to absolutely any substance. it's actually the opposite, i often find it too troublesome to have to use drugs, and more so lately).
ps: how people find meth addictive (especially physiologically) is seriously beyond me... same with notorious "comedowns", wich are indeed nothing but sleep-deprived psychoses.
in all fairness, i might be leaning a bit towards the o-c category just cause of my history of eating disorders (although i have never noticed myself develop any cravings or signs of addiction (other than food) to absolutely any substance. it's actually the opposite, i often find it too troublesome to have to use drugs, and more so lately).
ps: how people find meth addictive (especially physiologically) is seriously beyond me... same with notorious "comedowns", wich are indeed nothing but sleep-deprived psychoses.
but you do not have to do that!!! if you use mindfully, and live by harm reductions, there's no reason to miss a night of sleep! if this is happening, it means you are already in toxic overdose!
one can use sporadically, or regularly; in both cases it's possible to be either responsible or completely uncaring and unaccountable.
if you're reckless, then of course you're better off as an occasional user.
on the other hand, if you make it your own responsibility not to lose control, then you can lead a healthy life plus reap the beneficial effects of amphetamines, at the same time.
however, i agree far not everyone is capable of seriously committing to the above (see invalid usename's personality profiles
)
Glory Hole
Bluelighter
hh_sonic said:
Yes, I know that and thats part of the reason why I use meth sparingly. I have good self-control but there are alot of people out there that can't control their use as good.
Kandy K
Ex-Bluelighter
[EDITED- I have consistently asked you NOT to post this crap in OD]
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lyXw33d
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2003
- Messages
- 2,102
yes yes meth is nearly harmless....as long as you eat your vegies and go to bed every night the neurotoxicity, psycholigcal complications, organ disorders, depression, and other minor side effects can be avoided.....it's all about harm reduction! after all, we all know on bl that the gov't and tv has poluted our minds with such an amount of propoganda that we simply can't see that meth is just like any other stimulant out there!
seriously get fuckin real....some of you are treating meth as if it isn't particularly neurotoxic and difficult to control...of course it won't necessarily get you hooked from the first usage but that doesn' t mean that it's effects won't have the typical (even intelligent and educated) user craving more or not induce any physical addiction....it's hard to manage sleep on amphetamine, it's a lot harder to sleep on meth....even though it's a generalization, you can't expect to do meth and maintain a perfectly normal sleep cycle....
i understand this thread is about prevention of adverse effects, or that's the intention, but many are generalizing drug use as a whole and making it seem like meth really isn't evil....it's bad for your body....period...continually administering meth and then popping benzos before your bedtime is just plain unhealthy, and obviously more so than doing this w/ amphetamine....you'll have kids reading all this and thinking meth is just your everyday stimulant and is ok to do....
seriously get fuckin real....some of you are treating meth as if it isn't particularly neurotoxic and difficult to control...of course it won't necessarily get you hooked from the first usage but that doesn' t mean that it's effects won't have the typical (even intelligent and educated) user craving more or not induce any physical addiction....it's hard to manage sleep on amphetamine, it's a lot harder to sleep on meth....even though it's a generalization, you can't expect to do meth and maintain a perfectly normal sleep cycle....
i understand this thread is about prevention of adverse effects, or that's the intention, but many are generalizing drug use as a whole and making it seem like meth really isn't evil....it's bad for your body....period...continually administering meth and then popping benzos before your bedtime is just plain unhealthy, and obviously more so than doing this w/ amphetamine....you'll have kids reading all this and thinking meth is just your everyday stimulant and is ok to do....
Invalid Usename
Bluelighter
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lyXw33d,
I started this thread with the intention of drafting up a serious of recommendation guidelines to keep those who wish to use methamphetamine out of trouble. My first concern is to establish a practice which avoids development of a drug dependency. The second, are avoiding the toxicology issues involved.
Many appear to view the drug's use from almost a religious perspective, or a standpoint of good and evil. It is all fine and good to go around proclaiming one's alliance with the "light" and deplorement of the "darkness." But that sense of allegiance does absolutely nothing to address the fact that methamphetamine use has grown at a staggering rate, which will go down in drug epidemiology history. I recently read that current estimates are that 1% of the world's population have already used this drug at least once in their lifetime. That totally exceeds both herion and cocaine combined. All attempts at addressing this are failing, and there is a very serious need for a paradigm shift.
There is more to harm reduction than keeping yourself in shape so that you can do more drugs. It also has to do with maintaining yourself so that drugs do not take over your life.
I've requested that people submit their ideas to producing a safe usage guidelines. A guidelines NOT so that one can manage taking more drugs, but so that people will avoid acquiring a drug dependency. There is far more at stake than one would think, and is partly why I have been trying to gleen some idea of who the vast majority of users are.
But look, if all you can contribute here is a criticism then get the hell out of the way. Because it isn't doing a damn thing in attempting to offer a solution.
Here is something I wrote pages ago. Please read it.
I started this thread with the intention of drafting up a serious of recommendation guidelines to keep those who wish to use methamphetamine out of trouble. My first concern is to establish a practice which avoids development of a drug dependency. The second, are avoiding the toxicology issues involved.
Many appear to view the drug's use from almost a religious perspective, or a standpoint of good and evil. It is all fine and good to go around proclaiming one's alliance with the "light" and deplorement of the "darkness." But that sense of allegiance does absolutely nothing to address the fact that methamphetamine use has grown at a staggering rate, which will go down in drug epidemiology history. I recently read that current estimates are that 1% of the world's population have already used this drug at least once in their lifetime. That totally exceeds both herion and cocaine combined. All attempts at addressing this are failing, and there is a very serious need for a paradigm shift.
There is more to harm reduction than keeping yourself in shape so that you can do more drugs. It also has to do with maintaining yourself so that drugs do not take over your life.
I've requested that people submit their ideas to producing a safe usage guidelines. A guidelines NOT so that one can manage taking more drugs, but so that people will avoid acquiring a drug dependency. There is far more at stake than one would think, and is partly why I have been trying to gleen some idea of who the vast majority of users are.
But look, if all you can contribute here is a criticism then get the hell out of the way. Because it isn't doing a damn thing in attempting to offer a solution.
Here is something I wrote pages ago. Please read it.
seriously, if you think that I need to be convinced that many people end up tossing their lives away due to this drug, you can relax. I already understand that.
At the same time, the total number of public "positives" does not even come close to accounting for the total drug consumed in a local area. I am asking the question because I would like to get an idea of the long term economic impact that this meth epidemic is going to have on society.
I am hoping to find that there are large numbers of long-term, stable users. Because that will suggest that our health care system isn't going to be overloaded 10 to 15 years from now by meth induced disorders.
Essencially, this isn't just an immediate problem where if we simply ignore it, it will go away. Each of today's individual user disaster, may very likely become tomorrow's long term care patient (requiring a great deal of medical resources and life maintenance care). It is possible that in 10 to 15 years 10% of the world's population could be a major healthcare and maintenance burden. Long term functional users (even if they smoke the stuff like cigarettes), so long as they remain functional, won't cause an economic crisis down the line.
True, long term use may result in health complications. But someone who is functional doesn't need expensive, daily maintenance (such as emptying the bed pans every few hours for 20 or more years).
Again, the universal approach to the problem is in denying it. Just saying, "say away from it!" And that is the end of that. It's just not working. The FEDs are using the same two path approach that they used 50 years ago: first, promote negative drug use (and information whether factual or not is fine, so long as it supports the anti-drug stance). And second, filling up the prisons (have you looked at the US prison statistics lately?).
And herein lies the crux of the problem with prohibition: when you ban a thing you give up all control over it because you can not regulate something which is by definition banned. Prohibition creates an entirely unregulated market. An underground, black market, which you can attempt to suppress, but that you can not control.
In starting this thread, I am trying to determine if there is some way to make peace with this demon. At the very least, offer a set of safety guidelines where, if followed, will hep insure that the user does not acquire a compulsive drug use pattern. If we can even successfully get a percentage of the community to avoid a drug dependency, the effort will have been worth it.
At the same time, the total number of public "positives" does not even come close to accounting for the total drug consumed in a local area. I am asking the question because I would like to get an idea of the long term economic impact that this meth epidemic is going to have on society.
I am hoping to find that there are large numbers of long-term, stable users. Because that will suggest that our health care system isn't going to be overloaded 10 to 15 years from now by meth induced disorders.
Essencially, this isn't just an immediate problem where if we simply ignore it, it will go away. Each of today's individual user disaster, may very likely become tomorrow's long term care patient (requiring a great deal of medical resources and life maintenance care). It is possible that in 10 to 15 years 10% of the world's population could be a major healthcare and maintenance burden. Long term functional users (even if they smoke the stuff like cigarettes), so long as they remain functional, won't cause an economic crisis down the line.
True, long term use may result in health complications. But someone who is functional doesn't need expensive, daily maintenance (such as emptying the bed pans every few hours for 20 or more years).
Again, the universal approach to the problem is in denying it. Just saying, "say away from it!" And that is the end of that. It's just not working. The FEDs are using the same two path approach that they used 50 years ago: first, promote negative drug use (and information whether factual or not is fine, so long as it supports the anti-drug stance). And second, filling up the prisons (have you looked at the US prison statistics lately?).
And herein lies the crux of the problem with prohibition: when you ban a thing you give up all control over it because you can not regulate something which is by definition banned. Prohibition creates an entirely unregulated market. An underground, black market, which you can attempt to suppress, but that you can not control.
In starting this thread, I am trying to determine if there is some way to make peace with this demon. At the very least, offer a set of safety guidelines where, if followed, will hep insure that the user does not acquire a compulsive drug use pattern. If we can even successfully get a percentage of the community to avoid a drug dependency, the effort will have been worth it.
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Invalid Usename
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2004
- Messages
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I think that your proposal deserves consideration and comment. There are a couple things which come to mind which are issues to take into consideration.hh_sonic said:invalid usename,
you mentioned your interest in facts rather than observations.
well these are observations based on some facts
this is a bare minimum:
- 1. if not a single night of sleep is lost;
- 2. at least a bit more than a recommended amount of h20 is taken daily
- 3. necessary supp's, & vitamins (can't stress the importance of vb, magnesium etc) are also taken daily'
= NO tweaker delusions of any kind;
- failing to do above.......
= watch out for the onset
on benzos: although i do not agree with the idea of using these to relax, it's better to take a small dose (provided absolutely no sleep deprivation prior to this)and induce sleep than to miss the next night's rest. (insomnia sticks to you once it starts, developing a life of its own; if you know what it's like, you'll agree it's better not to risk it).
that said, the use of benzo's at higher doses does not seem good, or even effective for that matter).
other things are helpful, such as: gauging oneself (for instance, regulating your breathing can do wonders to calm one down)
and goes without saying, eating well + healthy
all these things are extremely important, it's these precautions and not the frequent or unfrequent use that will keep one from losing their grip.
There is already an existing culture of meth use, with a "tradition" of usage patterns. One if them is the "mythos of binging." This is so deeply ingrained in the drug's common use that I am concerned that if the guidelines do not somehow address this kind of use that people will ignore the whole of the guidelines.
One example is the drug's use by the gay community. If the guidelines demand that they not loose one night's sleep on their weekend's use, the chances are high that they will avoid all of the other guidelines.
I've been thinking of defining the "drug session" along the lines of a maximum period of 2 days, and allowing for losing one day of sleep. And assigning something like a "habit acquirement" scale to each of these drug session hours. This would include a formula (which does not exist yet) where for each hour of active drug session, "n" hours are needed for brain recovery to occur. There needs to be a shifting scale as the longer one's drug use session lasts, the larger the per hour deficit one acquires (and the longer the break needed in between drug session to recover).
I've still not worked this completely out yet, and I don't want the approach to "seem" as if someone can just go on for days and days and simply assume that they can "pay back" their usage deficit later on. And avoiding someone getting that impression is a fault of the system I am currently considering.
When the first part of the guidelines are complete, they will be to encourage users to avoid meth use at somewhere around the same rate as MDMA users avoid repeated use. At least a few weeks in between each drug use session. And it will go into the toxicology issues to avoid, and how to spot and address toxicology issues as they present themselves. Essentially, the first part of the guide will be how to avoid becoming a chronic user and prevent acquired drug dependence.
The second part, as I am considering it right now, would address the issues that chronic users face, including strategies for working the drug out of one's lifestyle. But there is much that I think needs to be established before that chapter can be fleshed out.
Kandy K
Ex-Bluelighter
Fucking shit. I post WHILE going through fucking meth psychosis in a meth psychosis thread, and I get warned for it. I'm only showing people 1st hand experience what it's like.
Invalid Usename
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2004
- Messages
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Meth may or may not make for a good recreational drug. The concern is that the number of regular users is growing at a staggering rate in North America, Asia and Australia.hh_sonic said:
I can't impress enough the importance of avoiding regular use of the drug. Each time a dosage is taken, a reinforcement pattern is activated which can lead to compulsive drug seeking behaviors. At this point in time, I am far less concerned with developing a harm reduction guidelines which supports regular use of the drug. Rather, I intend to produce a guidelines which prevents someone from acquiring a dependency on the drug (which is a result of the pleasure/reward feedback loop of regular use).
Invalid Usename
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2004
- Messages
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You may very well be that invisible population of users who fall under the radar which I spoke of pages ago. Functional, invisible, and who account for the bulk of the meth consumer market.Glory Hole said:
The people who show up as "positives" and on clinic and police rosters, tend to be marginalized on a whole by society. And from what I can gather, the majority of these people were marginalized even before their meth drug use. One thing is for certain, the people showing up as positives on these roasters can not account for the incredible size of this drug market. The vast majority of consumers appear "invisible."
Glory Hole
Bluelighter
Invalid Usename said:
Exactly. I know quite a few users who use it infrequently like me. They will always do it on the weekends and don't stay up all week tweaking out. You are right about us being functional and invisible because none of us have ever gone to rehab or shown positive on drug tests because of how little we use it. The more you get into meth use is the more you start to find out about all these different people who you never thought did it that are users like yourself. I think this goes for any type of drug. You don't know who uses it until you use it yourself. Lots of these people appear to be normal and in fact they are.
Invalid Usename
Bluelighter
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This is what I really suspect (but am unable to prove) is the most common usage patterns, and "may" account for the bulk of the methamphetamine market.
This is also why I find so many studies flawed. If we focus solely on studying the pathology of alcohol use in those who develop a dependence, then the study result "appears" to demonstrate that alcohol is a highly addictive drug. But we know that is not the case, and it does nothing to provide a clear understanding of the drug's impact on the whole of the population.
Unfortunately, it is this very kind of data that is the focus of all of the studies. And it is the results of these studies which are used in developing drug policy laws.
Even the quasi-religious convictions expressed by many, who appear to be against the very nature of this discussion, rely on either: data assembled from identified drug pathology, or from instances of those who are socially marginalize and have acquired a drug dependence. Neither of who alone can account for supporting the size of the methamphetamine black market.
This is also why I find so many studies flawed. If we focus solely on studying the pathology of alcohol use in those who develop a dependence, then the study result "appears" to demonstrate that alcohol is a highly addictive drug. But we know that is not the case, and it does nothing to provide a clear understanding of the drug's impact on the whole of the population.
Unfortunately, it is this very kind of data that is the focus of all of the studies. And it is the results of these studies which are used in developing drug policy laws.
Even the quasi-religious convictions expressed by many, who appear to be against the very nature of this discussion, rely on either: data assembled from identified drug pathology, or from instances of those who are socially marginalize and have acquired a drug dependence. Neither of who alone can account for supporting the size of the methamphetamine black market.
Mettray
Bluelighter
lyXw33d said:
No it's really okay, at Bluelight of all places are we really going to say 'think of the children'? If you're reading for information revelant to your life, you're no longer an innocent whoever you are, and we welcome you irrespective of your age. If you are browsing casually or a friend shows you the site or something, you will not accidentally try meth primarily because of some 'usage guidelines' you saw on BL. It's not plausible. If that does happen, chalk it up to the weirdness of the universe. But if you're going to try meth, it is going to be almost entirely outside your experience of some thread on Bluelight. I am not that much older than a teenager and I have a shrimpy frame and I try to work out, but the Steroid Discussion forum does not make me do steroids. And frankly I think we should really celebrate the access to information that 'kids' have on the internet. I know when I was 15 I got around a lot of bullshit by getting online, I learned some important things very fast.
Invalid Usename said:
So, the guidelines you are trying to write are kind of spurred by existing MDMA guidelines, which hardly ever mention not missing more than a night of sleep, and I have actually stayed up for 2+ days on MDMA, and people should actually probably be kind of cautioned against this in general, I knew it was unhealthy when I did it, but I don't think it would hurt to remind people how shitty skipping more than one night of sleep is. A lot of the time people really do mistake some completely predictable effects of missing TOO MUCH sleep, especially emotional frailty and mood swings, as the aftereffects of a drug. Skip even one night of sleep and unless you are truly riding a wave that's bigger than you, which does happen sometimes, you are going to FEEL LIKE CRAP. Especially if you just did a major stimulant.
Whatever you write, Invalid Usename, people will process your guidelines lots of ways, they won't accept or reject the whole of them. I think it is a good idea to remind people that missing even one night of sleep is detrimental, and by doing meth (which seems to necessitate skipping at least one night of sleep - MDMA basically necessitates this for me, so I can only imagine meth!), they are making a serious decision. Not a deadly decision. Not an evil decision. But a serious decision. It is really quite bad for your body to miss one night of sleep, and I think good informational guidelines will tell the truth about what someone is getting into. I know how unhealthy it is to miss one night of sleep with MDMA, so I make sure that I feel the 'roll' (actually I call it a wave) will really be worth it, that it will be an experience I will value and remember, that I am trading some of my health for something truly good happening inside of me. In a way, it is basically totally unashamedly acknowledging how much I enjoy being on ecstasy. This is how people need to treat meth if they're going to do it 'more safely,' they must acknowledge that they REALLY LIKE IT despite all the stigma and health detriments. I think this will be hard for a lot of people to do. I know a lot of people will think this statement is dangerous, but: it is really not THAT big a deal if you learn you love doing something that is really bad for your body, as long as you know both sides of that statement. You're ahead if you truly know the deal, even if it's that you like something deadly. Just know it's deadly. Think about smoking tobacco.
Anyway, to get back to some original point I once had (and I have read all pages of this thread by the way), I think these guidelines, just my opinion, if they are going to be stickied as a Bluelight FAQ or put on a website or whatever and you really want them to be good guidelines, I would tell the truth about how bad it is to lose just one night of sleep (good guidelines tell the complete truth so users actually CAN truly know the deal), and then go on to the next section about what to do if you're deciding to miss two nights of sleep. And remind them that this is a second, more serious decision. Not an evil decision. Sometimes (usually?) not even a moral decision. Just a serious decision about their bodily health. It is okay to trade your longevity for the rush of the moment, as long as you actually WANT it and you're not doing it out of compulsion/inertia.
To be honest, I am not sure that 'rest guidelines' will be taken seriously. I would like to hear other opinions about this, but it seems like when people do meth for two days straight, they're committed to a total party for two days straight, fuck everything else. Maybe I'm wrong, I would be interested to hear. But (just my opinion) I think the most harm reduction would be accomplished just giving required water, vitamin, and food breaks, and the general instruction to rest when you feel like it. Not trying to write it for you, it just came out really specific when I tried to put it into words.
Personally, I think the guidelines will be most accepted if they are in accordance with the spirit of PARTY!, which is also the spirit of PLUR
, and also definitely the spirit of Bluelight Now with Added PLUR. Cynicism/knowledge (this shit is gonna hurt me) mixed with an openness, freedom, and ability to say fuck-it to the world (I don't care cause I'm gonna make it count).I would also be interested to hear from people who use meth infrequently and just count it as one among several toys in their box.
love
mettray
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