Opioids Methadone Physical Addiction

[datSTIMfreak]

Hey BLers, I have a friend who, along with many of the younger junkies in my circle (including me) discovered the joys of recreational use of methadone. Before this, we were in the morphine/oxycodone crowd, but I've been slowly seeing the change to methadone as our DOC. I prefer morphine but methadone is becoming much more available. It seems like everyone just changed their pain scripts from OxyContin to methadone 'cause of the whole OP bullshit (fuck Purdue Pharma!).

Anyway, most of us are methadone addicts, and have enough of a tolerance to take some every day and not OD from the build-up problem. My friend takes 'done once every 3-4 days. He says this way he will not get physically addicted, but I doubt this. Methadone has an EXTREMELY long half-life. Even when you are not high, 3 days later, your opioid receptors are still occupied by the 'done. Which is why you will still have pinpoint pupils, be constipated, have some respiratory depression, etc. a few days after taking done. If he is using once every 3-4 days, his opioid receptors are never getting a break, so what I'm thinking is once all that built-up methadone disappears from the opioid receptors, he will W/D. I mentioned that this may be the case and he steadfastly belives he will not cop a physical addiction. Anyone know if this is the case? Thanks.

 

[lawyersgunsmoney]

I don't know for sure. If he was addicted to anything before he started doing methadone then he has probably just transferred from one addiction to another. From what I understand, methadone withdrawals are extremely long and painful. So I would recommend he take a break to see if he is addicted or not. I'm not certain, but its is probably safe to say that if he stops for a week and feels no withdrawal symptoms he is ok.

 

[cj]

Hes gonna be addicted you have it right with the half life. Try and stop him from getting on a huge dose Done withdrawl is no joke.

 

[oxymoron87]

how much are you guys taking cause that could make a huge difference if yer gona have horrible wds if yer takin like 20 its fine but like 70 or 90 gona be hell

 

[rachamim]

Methadone has a 36 hour half-life so that the average person needs to space individual dosages at least 72 hours apart, however, should a user come out on the longer than average side of that 36 hour median, he or she will get into a bit of a jam. Methadone, if used regularly, produces a bio-resevoir so that it distributes the substance piecemeal (like a timerelease tablet). Ergo, that space between dosages ends up negated and the user gets a full blown physical addiction.

While Withdrawal IS a lot longer than most opiates/opioids, it is also a lot milder than morphine and heroin (which is a lot shorter) so that it is a tradeoff. Addicts swear up and down its the worst to Withdraw from but that is from the osychological perspective (and it is VERY difficult for most mentally). The physical symptoms are very mild all things comdidered. My last cold turkey, off of 220mgs taken daily over a 22 year period lasted 8 days (though it varies obviously, by a couple of days).

I have to add that really is a terrible substance recreationally. Physically it cannot euphoria (this usually creates a tonne of posters arguing they gain euphoria but most don't realise that euphoria is a quantifiable value physically and that the chemical composition of methadone bars it). It will sometimes cause a "nod" but usually puts users to sleep if they don't remain active, so if sleep is the goal...but there is another reason why it is a terrible substance recreationally; A user doses say at 8AM. By 6PM the psychoactivity is totally gone and a recreational user will want to re-dose. However the half-life is 36 hours so that overdose can take place quite easily. If one uses an additional substance the danger greatly increases.

 

[datSTIMfreak]

I only take methadone by itself and in combination with nicotine. I do not use alcohol or benzos with it.
I don't think methadone is a terrible substance recreationally at all. Yes, less of a body buzz than morphine and heroin, but it is still a strong mu-opioid receptor agonist, and thus will give a psychological "high", euphoria, nodding. I don't get extremely euphoric off opioids from just the high alone, the nodding, to me, is what gives the most euphoria, I just like that in and out of conciousness state. Methadone is a great substance recreationally, at least for me. If you have a decent tolly you don't have to worry about the half-life as much. Yes, I still worry greatly about it, but when I was new to 'done, I would always wait at least 4 days before taking more. Now I can use 'done every day and not OD.

 

[datSTIMfreak]

Oxymoron-I usually take 10-20 mg a day, usually 15. I have the tolly to take that. My friend usually takes 10 mg every 3-4 days. Most of my junky friends take 15-20 mg a day.

 

[NeighborhoodThreat]

I still get amazing recreational highs off methadone. Opiate highs are certainly a matter of personal preference and how one experiences and describes "euphoria".

 

[oxymoron87]

Oxymoron-I usually take 10-20 mg a day, usually 15. I have the tolly to take that. My friend usually takes 10 mg every 3-4 days. Most of my junky friends take 15-20 mg a day.

i would not call that junky status by any means yer wds will be almost nothing i am on 70mgs a day and i do not even feel anything but not dope sick and at my clinic thats a pritty low dose ther is 110 pound girls there on 240mgs of methadone everyday


you and yer friends must have like zero opiate experience if you get high off 15mgs of methadone u should just quit now before u really really need methadone from years of abuse

 

[love2party]

I have to add that really is a terrible substance recreationally. Physically it cannot euphoria (this usually creates a tonne of posters arguing they gain euphoria but most don't realise that euphoria is a quantifiable value physically and that the chemical composition of methadone bars it). It will sometimes cause a "nod" but usually puts users to sleep if they don't remain active, so if sleep is the goal...but there is another reason why it is a terrible substance recreationally; A user doses say at 8AM. By 6PM the psychoactivity is totally gone and a recreational user will want to re-dose. However the half-life is 36 hours so that overdose can take place quite easily. If one uses an additional substance the danger greatly increases.

How does the chemical makeup of methadone bar it from producing euphoria? Methadone can definitely produce euphoria, especially in people with low to no tolerance.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

^I agree... it seems at times people take an almost hyperbolic interpretation of claims that methadone maintenance doesn't get people high.

I don't doubt that relatively speaking, methadone produces less euphoria that some other mu agonists, but I'd need evidence to believe it produced none.

Furthermore, I'd like some information on how euphoria is physically quantified. I thought it was quantified using self-reports.

 

[lawyersgunsmoney]

I used to use methadone recreationally all the time when I was a teenager. I tried the pills, the wafers and the liquid and it always got me my favorite high.

 

[TheAzo]

Physically it cannot euphoria (this usually creates a tonne of posters arguing they gain euphoria but most don't realise that euphoria is a quantifiable value physically and that the chemical composition of methadone bars it).

This is one of the most ridiculous statements I have seen posted here in a while. Euphoria is a subjective experience, and cannot be quantified. It is measured by asking people who take the drug if they experienced euphoria (and as we know, plenty of people report getting euphoria from methadone). Also, speaking against absolute statements about whether a drug is euphoric, plenty of people experience euphoria from drugs that others do not find euphoric, and plenty of people do not experience euphoria from drugs that most people do.

In any case, there's no reason to expect that methadone would not be euphoric based on it's pharmacological profile - it's a mu opioid agonist, and those are generally euphoric. However, the majority opinion seems to be that it's not as euphoric as most opioids. There's nothing about the chemical structure that can be definitively shown to cause that - some of the closely related methadone derivitives (diconal, dextromoramide) were preferred by addicts over other opioids, presumably because they were more euphoric.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

Not to pile it on rachamim too much (whose information is generally spot-on) but my Nurse's Drug Guide book entry on methadone lists euphoria as a common side effect.

 

[rachamim]

First, the reason why methadone cannot produce euphoria; I am sure some know or have heard about the "Morphine Rule." Morphine is considered the gold standard for both analgesia and for psychoactivity. Before people ask why morphine and not heroin, heroin is merely a vehicle for a more efficient delivery of morphine. The acetylisation increases lipid solubility by a factor of 3.3, meaning it allows morphine to penetrate your brain roughly 3 times faster than morphine on its own. With a 90 second half-life the substance is very quickly evacuated and all that remains is morphine. I have to add this because that point is always made whenever the Morphine Rule is discussed in depth.

The Morphine Rule has 4 parts:

I) A phenyl or aromatic ring

II) A quaternary carbon atom (a carbon atom attached to 4 other carbon atoms)

III) A CH2-CH2 group

IV) That CH2-CH2 group must be attached to a tertiary nitrogen atom (nitrogen atom directly attached to 3 carbon atoms).

The Morphine Rule, if met in totality, ensures that an opiate/opioid will have analgesic properties, cause sedation AND euphoria. Methadone is a close fit but it has a CH3 group attached to the 2nd carbon atom of its CH2-CH2 group. That tiny aberration to the Rule prevents euphoria.

What is euphoria? Psychologically, as with all things, the definition is entirely subjective. Physically though, the sphincter muscle contraction, tail flick latency and radiant assay, tail immersion and other spinothalamic assays and of course relevant brain imaging all allow definitive quantification. On the psychological facet the usual quantifier is MGB Scaling.

The natural tendency for people, and if this thread continues you will see it (it has already begun in fact), is for people to get highly offended by this information as if they feel they are foolish for liking a substance. This info only matters in the academic sense. If a person feels good, that should be the defining point. Still, I do need to repeat that methadone can be very dangerous for reasons stated in my last post.

 

[rachamim]

I also need to add that Mu agonism does NOT translate into euphoria though it is a common feature.

 

[ramsay st rider]

i never ever got high while on maintenance, except in the first week but thats because i was still using.

 

[ramsay st rider]

there is NOTHING fun about methadone maintenance, cane2theleft seriously people on mmt are not exaggerating when they say there is NO high. Maybe some people who raise their dose as fast as possible when they first start may get a high, unfortunately not me.

 

[brutus]

I remember 6 years ago when I discovered the joys of methadone and wish I had never even seen that shit in my life. I'm 21 now and going to a clinic because I cannot stop this shit, that is after a year on bupe, rehab, 2 overdoses. I hate it.

 

[SubDude]

Medical Dictionary

eu·pho·ria definition
Pronunciation: /y u̇ -ˈfōr-ē-ə, -ˈfȯr-/
Function: n
: a feeling of well-being or elation

I certainly get this when I take methadone recreationally. MMT is a different story.