• Neuroscience & Pharmacology Discussion Welcome Guest
    Posting Rules Bluelight Rules
    Recent Journal Articles Chemistry Mega-Thread
    FREE Chemistry Databases! Self-Education Guide

  • N&PD Moderators: Skorpio

"Mental illness is caused (primarily) by drug use"

There are two NMDA antagonists under developement for major depressive disorder: 4-Chlorokynurenine and Rapastinel.

There isn't a lot of information about them, but both seem to have a rapid onset of antidepressant effects.
 
I've never fully understood why people make such a distinction between biology and psychology. They are intertwined.

There are multiple ways to approach most problems. If social defeat stress causes rumination and hyperactivity of the default mode network and depression, you could treat that with both cognitive and pharmaceutical/biological therapies.

See for example psilocybin's effects on the default mode network and subgenual cingulate. But mindfulness and CBT can also help with DMN related issues.
 
There is now STRONG evidence that most forms are caused by chronic childhood and adolescent stress, along with isolation.. This leads to way to much glutamate being released which does terrible things to the young brain. Besides causing actual "physcail" damage to axons, dendrites, and synapses, ir chagees the way the brain grows. Causing it to be in a permanent anxious/sad/defensive state and the problem is once someone reaches adiulthood it is much harder to reserve said changes.
 
Coolwhip said:
There is now STRONG evidence that most forms are caused by chronic childhood and adolescent stress, along with isolation.. This leads to way to much glutamate being released which does terrible things to the young brain. Besides causing actual "physcail" damage to axons, dendrites, and synapses, ir chagees the way the brain grows. Causing it to be in a permanent anxious/sad/defensive state and the problem is once someone reaches adiulthood it is much harder to reserve said changes.
Click to expand...

I thought that the main reason for the negative changes in brain structure is caused by cortisol? Still I believe that chronic stress in general will lead to toxic outcomes, even though there seem to be people who adopt well to stress using the right coping techniques. Addictions and bad behavioral patterns form easier via badura's model of learning as younger as you are, too. Well there are so many ways to fuck up your life that meeehhhh...
 
BiG StroOnZ said:
mod edit: These posts were split off from this derailed thread: http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/820268-Anyone-Miss-the-DV-What-method-of-DXM-do-you-prefer
and revolve around the claim by Big Stroonz that mental illness is mostly a result of drug use, and perhaps also about DXM's potential to be an anti-depressant lik ketamine or whether ketamine is a valid anti-depressant.
Moved here to get a scientific analysis / second opinion, and of course split being off-topic.





Mental Disorders are caused by mainly, the usage of drugs. Pretty simple, we have very much a clue about how they are caused. It is a chemical imbalance. What causes a chemical imbalance, people who use street drugs and self medicate. This brings out dormant mental illnesses. What else causes mental disorders, traumatic events from childhood, that become suppressed.
Click to expand...

Much drug use is self-medication I agree, and it is self-medication because the medication works and narcotics like morphine and opium were used by doctors to treat depression and anxiety and related issues well into living memory more or less all around the world . . . so opioid narcotic analgesics also help manage mental illness, not cause it . . . and the development of withdrawal symptoms is an acquired metabolic disorder and I am sure even cave men and women knew how to medicate it . . . probably animals as well . . .
 
The correlation/causation piece is really key here. Self-medicating with any drug, dissociative or other is very common for folks desperate to treat CPTSD. Does it make them crazier? Sometimes. Is it effective? Sometimes. The rate of repeated use would suggest it usually provides quite a bit of relief. Does that mean it’s a good idea? Nah, probably not. Are there folks who are sane and drugs make them crazy? Sure. Are there folks who have a predisposition to crazy and drugs bring that out in full force? Yup. Are SSRI’s a safe and reasonable choice for treatment of these patients? I don’t think so, I think they are a bag of shit, but that’s my opinion and everyone’s got one. I’d bet they are better than meth for most people, but not nearly as good as shroom, MDMA or K assisted sessions.
In my experience, the vast majority of casual drug users do not have serious mental illness problems, where the vast majority of mentally ill do have serious drug problems (see downtown LA for my scholarly reference).
chicken and egg my friends. 🐔 🥚
Onward🌈💫
 
I'd agree with that drug use can make mental illness worse, and probably does in many cases but primarily due to war on drugs causes, no/misinformation, people being scared of the wrong things (bad trips, police, urban myths instead of .. themselves, or knowing it's themselves, or something alike), impure stuff, people being left alone with problems or put on the wrong meds - I know to be somewhat alone with that but my position is that antipsychotics have strong potential to turn transient psychotic episodes into chronical illness. There are publications coming to the conclusion that "schizophrenia" is statistically better off with just temporary medication as required instead of continuous precautionary regimen. Don't have the links at hand unfortunately but it's on PubMed. And I've seen too many cases by myself.

About the dissociatives, I am really unsure. I am one of these people who are very sensitive to their "antidepressive" effect but as well as the "euphoric" one and up to today, after a shitload of them, I can't really separate both and tend to think it's a mixture. The experience of being able to look at and reflect your life from a neutral point of view alone can be and is life-changing. But it also fades off again pretty quickly. I've had the most pronounced semi-lasting antidepressant effects of, yeah, DXM. But also the worst side effects. K never gave me antidepressivity above of any other arylcyclohexylamines, more the opposite that to me it feels like having more of a body load coupled with lesser mental benefits than the deschlorinated versions.

But drug use as the primary cause of mental illness. Even more, limited to illicit drugs? More so than said traumatic events, social abandonance, genetic inheritance and all?
No fucking way.

Sorry that I can't respond better to some of the points cause of my limited English, it's a very interesting and important topic. I've heard statements like that repeatedly in recent times, drug use being a primary worldwide social problem (yeah it is, but not the way people think of) or the primary cause of inability to work, of social disease etc (yeah, but just look at booze) and it makes me worry.
 
I would imagine that virtually all schizophrenics would have become schizophrenics regardless of drug use, it simply wouldn't have happened as quickly.
 
dopamimetic said:
I know to be somewhat alone with that but my position is that antipsychotics have strong potential to turn transient psychotic episodes into chronical illness. There are publications coming to the conclusion that "schizophrenia" is statistically better off with just temporary medication as required instead of continuous precautionary regimen. Don't have the links at hand unfortunately but it's on PubMed. And I've seen too many cases by myself
Click to expand...

Here's one publication about the rebound psychotic episodes that occur after quitting antipsychotic use.

However, long-term administration of antipsychotics can upregulate D2 receptors and produce receptor supersensitivity manifested by behavioral supersensitivity to dopamine stimulation in animals, and movement disorders and supersensitivity psychosis (SP) in patients. Antipsychotic-induced SP was first described as the emergence of psychotic symptoms with tardive dyskinesia (TD) and a fall in prolactin levels following drug discontinuation. In the era of first-generation antipsychotics, 4 clinical features characterized drug-induced SP: rapid relapse after drug discontinuation/dose reduction/switch of antipsychotics, tolerance to previously observed therapeutic effects, co-occurring TD, and psychotic exacerbation by life stressors.
Click to expand...

The more effective dopamine antagonists like risperidone also make a person even more unable to feel pleasure from everyday activities, possibly exacerbating a drug abuse problem.
 
Mental illness is in my opinion caused mostly by a combination of shitty diet, social conditioning and bluelight toxicity. The diet part is very big and most people do not even realize it until they make significant changes to their eating patterns.
 
Having a sibling who is a treatment-resistant schizophrenic, and following my own lived experience, leads me to believe drug ab(use) is a complication caused by mental illness. I was raised in a broken home, and we were subjected to physical and emotional abuse. I was diagnosed with ADHD-P.I.(formerly ADD) before I even had my first drug experience, as well as oppositional defiant disorder, which basically means I wasn't good at conforming to societal expectations. I also developed OCD as a child and had an obsession with hand-washing that developed before I experimented with any drug.

My sibling didn't experiment with anything either, and was top of her class until her schizophrenia manifested. She began smoking marijuana not long after, but that's what most highschool kids do at some point. The marijuana usage began after she was already experiencing psychosis, so it may have made it worse, but it wasn't a causal factor in and of itself, she already had it coming.

Substance Use Disorder is considered a mental illness in and of itself anyways, is it not? I thought it was listed in the latest DSM-5, but I'm not sure. I do believe drug usage can cause mental illness in certain cases. Like, if a kid was put on neuroleptics and misdiagnosed as having schizophrenia when they really just had a few too many imaginary friends, and was fed them for years, coming off of them could probably cause psychotic episodes...in fact I would be surprised if putting children on any psychiatric medication before their brains mature didn't cause some neuro-divergent traits to develop.
 
Drug use, psychiatric problems and alienation from the society are things that all worsen each other, and when enough of them affect the same person, they cause a never ending vicious circle of failure. In countries where practically free-of-charge public sector healthcare is available, any signs of drug use being a part of someone's problems will make the doctor label the whole spectrum of that person's problems as a result of drug use (and deny any treatment of other problemacy before the patient gets sober). This is because it's seen morally questionable to spend resources on that kind of people when they could be spent in treating tax-paying citizens who have to raise their children and be responsible in their jobs.
 
Cotcha Yankinov said:
I've never fully understood why people make such a distinction between biology and psychology. They are intertwined.
Click to expand...

Because both need eachother? But if you ask them, they will tell you that psychology's not that important sometimes. It's an old-topic that isn't worth discussin.

But mental illness isn't caused by drugs, it's caused by environments. I saw it with my eyes, drugs can heal mental illness.
 
Coolwhip said:
There is now STRONG evidence that most forms are caused by chronic childhood and adolescent stress, along with isolation.. This leads to way to much glutamate being released which does terrible things to the young brain. Besides causing actual "physcail" damage to axons, dendrites, and synapses, ir chagees the way the brain grows. Causing it to be in a permanent anxious/sad/defensive state and the problem is once someone reaches adiulthood it is much harder to reserve said changes.
Click to expand...
Wow just read your posting, had overseen it when I wrote my previous reply. Do you have any sources for this particular link between early life stress, isolation and glutamatergic over-activity?
This is exactly what I have / am struggling with for as long as I can remember. Since I discovered that DXM is able to relief this permanent stress, emotional over-activity, muscle rigidity and anxiety I have been looking for better solutions but up to now only thing really helping are NMDA antagonists. Just that I eventually got hooked on them, abused the shit out of and developed tolerance like two horses turning them useless.
If indeed it was glutamate doing too much then the med riluzole might be 'it', exact mechsnism is unknown but it's used in conditions of glutamatergic toxicity and lowers its levels there.
So or so it is an interesting approach which I have never read of before and as none of these docs I have tried to talk to about this topic, has either known more about (some even stated things like "glutamate is harmless, youre a hypochondriac [relating to that one in food, seemingly not knowing about recent foundings]) or unwilling to talk about scientific facts but see everything as DSM-IV mental issues.
So some papers would be of great help 🙂 quick Google scholar search found me this:

Adverse childhood experiences associate to reduced glutamate levels in the hippocampus of patients affected by mood disorders

Isolation and characterization of human monoclonal autoantibodies to glutamic acid decarboxylase.

Edit: Neurobiology and consequences of social isolation stress in animal model—A comprehensive Review (here changes in sensitivity of NMDA and opioid receptors are mentioned. Will get full text later)
 
Last edited:
I had preteen depression and didn't have an upbeat look on life until I started self-medicating at the age of 25, so my two cents is to think a lot of sanity has been gained by substances. In this day and age chalk it up to one more fuel the body needs after eating and breathing. I call that a step forward in the evolution of life's fruitful complexity.
 
There is a theory that some tobacco smokers are self-medicating schizophrenia and related issues and I would hope so because think of how much trial and error with questionable, physically habituating drugs requiring months to start working is involved with treating depression -- it sounds like it can be the same with anxiety and schizophrenia and even if some people make it work for them, those two conditions can also cause immense suffering and life disruption.

I would not be surprised to learn that 50 per cent of unsupervised narcotic use is physical self-medication and another 40 per cent for depression, anxiety, OCD, a number of other causes of suffering and/or sub-optimally realised potential with an organic cause . . . as I think I have said several hundred times here, morphine, opium and friends were the definitive "psych meds" from the Palaeolithic to 1960 or so, many doctors remember this, and research into using oxymorphone, morphine, butorphanol and buprenorphine for treatment-resistant intractable depression started again circa 2006, tramadol from 1998 or so, and O-DSMT from 2002 and and tapentadol since maybe 2015, and there are others as well like tilidate, hydrocodone, hydromorphone, oxycodone, ER codeine, phenazocine, ketobemidone, dextromoramide and others, either currently used as analgesics and/or anti-diarrhoeals or drugs developed and then put aside because others worked better.

Other currently-used drugs considered as anti-depressants have been hyoscine/scopolamine, ketamine, dextromethorphan, and cyclorphan the latter of which is a high-impact sui generis hallucinogen (in other words not 100 per cent a dissociative effect, and it is not a phenylethylamine or tryptamine either) less apt to create dysphoria and significant psychotomimetic effects than cyclazocine, for example. I can attest that making dextromethorphan back into a reasonable approximation of its parent drug by mixing 30:4 with levorphanol will make one feel just like Jesus' secretary.

If someone has anxiety which spirals out of control for whichever reason, one thing that may work is a conservative dose of alprazolam taken five minutes before a big shot of, for example, a mixture of oxymorphone, oxycodone, nicomorphine, dihydromorphine, or morphine along with hyoscine or Sexy Trihexy, ephedrine and/or methylphenidate, and dextromethorphan right in the arse cheek or up the main line. Carisoprodol or meprobamate plus hydrocodone PO also may be good for anxiety and/or depression as many self-medicators have already determined, especially in patients who may have an existing tolerance, allergy, or metabolic quirk which makes benzodiazepines less than optimal. I for one found codeine, and hydrocodone with or without DXM-doxylamine-paracetamol mixed with meprobamate, tripelennamine, caffeine, and methylphenidate to be a very versatile mixture which, in my case, helped a lot with a broken ankle which caused me lots of aggravation and frustration. It was effective like Brompton Mixture and almost as good as Dors & Fours as an analgesic and euphoriant, and with a lower risk overall. Also not as much impact on concentration and so forth as Scophedal. The orphenadrine ER, naproxen, and dihydrocodeine + hydroxyzine I took during the day was a good preload too and then I did the hydrocodone & meprobamate with stimulants at mid-evening. Even with the rushing euphoria and feeling just like Jesus' son and a touch of drowsiness and somewhat diminished concentration, I could still get all the way through a game of Scrabble or reading Der Spiegel cover to cover and then a few hours later I would get drowsy and it was time for bed.

If they ever make a proprietary medication with hydrocodone plus carisoprodol or meprobamate in one pill they should probably distribute it only in blister packs rather than loose pills in a bottle because it appears that a lot of the accidents with this mixture (usually without the stimulants) have some degree of strong short-acting-barbiturate-type sedative-hypnotic automatonism (like what killed Marilyn Monroe, Aimee Semple McPherson, Margaux Hemingway, Dana Plato, and maybe River Phoenix) involved.

And of course amphetamines carried an official indication for depression, especially depression which has diminished physical activity as a symptom and result and possible positive-feedback-loop cause, from introduction in Japan in the 1920s all the way to the present in some locales. Recall that oxycodone partially hits people like C-Jam and is said to have at least some risk of drug dependence of the morphine, codeine, and cocaine types, all at the same time. Well, folks get powerful sick if they go off duloxetine, fluoxetine and others all the time., by the way, and unlike oxy and other narcotic analgesics, which have an obvious effect in seconds to tens of minutes, people are on second-generation anti-depressants for weeks to months and balls/clit deep in side effects before it is known if they are going to work.. Then there are the amphetamine variants like MDA and MDMA to name just two . . . methylphenidate seemed to be one of more effective agents for these purposes with less relative cardiac impact and CNS organic damage potential, and new methylphenidate, phenmetrazine, amphetamine, aminorex, pyrovalerone, and Bolivian Marching Powder analogues are popping up all the time.

We most assuredly need a stop-gap until something more mainstream (or off-the-wall, actually) can be found to work for the PTSD catastrophe in various Western countries. Beta blockers and anticholinergics can also be part of a peri-exposure protocol and very probably after the PTSD has already formed, and the narcotics need not be the most potent -- dihydrocodeine and tramadol and often both would be a good first-line experimental treatment.

Naturally, withdrawal from narcotics and benzodiazepines is an acquired metabolic illness with complications, as is tolerance, and people medicate for it and Bob's yer uncle.

It would seem that nearly 100 per cent of unsupervised benzodiazepine use is self-medicating for something since by definition benzos are psych meds. Then we have the hooch lovers and barbiturate and meprobamate folks -- a good 70 per cent of that is probably self-medication for insomnia and much of the aforementioned.


"If they x-rayed your wiener, would they see a bone?"
-- Frau Röntgen, Würzburg, 29. December 1895

Now we know angle what the anti-drug folks in the States are really playing -- people cannot get better until they pay a shrink as much dough as will fit in the boot of a Ferrari?

It is not heresy, and I will not recant.
 
Last edited:
I guess main problem is that for some- I can't tell numbers here - it is only a temporary fix and afterwards one problem replaced with another, if lucky, or an additional problem acquired while the initial ones relapsing.

Really I had so much hope in the dissociatives and while it had worked for pretty long, maybe could have been many years if I had known and felt this knowledge that I have today. That it's an one shot thing and tolerance will kill it maybe forever, turn the miracle into an addiction and me to getting a script for morphine.

I see former drug addicts to become anti drug hardheads, something I don't like and still think I have learned much that no therapist ever could have taught me but was it worth the price (said addiction, increased risk for psychosis maybe, who knows what else) and certainly by abusing nmda antags for escaping reality instead of medical aids I threw perls in front of pigs (some German idiom for loosing sth valuable by not appreciating it).

At last they forget what they have gone though, it's legitimate to regret but not to damn others for the same one has done and demand continued criminalization of them.

Just really wish that war on drugs never started, Yeah as you say some substances were used for thousands of years but now should be Pure Evil™. Good statement about self medication. Just maybe from. time to time it is self medicating for self-aid skills previously lost to the very same substance(s). It is very difficult to differenciate here and I don't think that ability to be widespread among some psychiatrists seeing abuse and weak personality every where. Even with the latter now being called by Politically Correct Names™.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top