[MEGA] Strain Discussion- 3rd Backcross *ALL STRAIN TALK IN HERE*

[Artificial Emotion]

This older person just told you how it was above.

Before the US sinsemilla revolution top end herb was grown in Mexico, in Colombia, in Thailand, in parts of Africa, and probably other places I'm forgetting. People who smoked the best cannabis from Mexico and from Thailand and Viet Nam will tell you it was every bit as good as the sort of mid level stuff that most people consider "good" today. MOST people back then - though we had access to great hash -smoked commercial herb that was far inferior -often shockingly bad by even schwag standards of today (think ammonia as a normal smell...), but people who had access to the best had something that was awesome and most of you would kill to smoke today. All sats too....lol

But yes....it's true that the high end of today is more potent than the high end of 1975 by and large - but not by as much as many of y'all seem to think.

/old stoner over and out

Thanks for posting your perspective mate.

 

[Folley]

Dude... modern DANK strains can get to 30% THC. You really think that some Thai farmer out in the middle of the jungle can replicate the conditions needed to grow weed of that nature?


I don't think so... and the strains have been bred for 30 years to bring out the best traits, even if the old strains were amazing, they will just keep getting better as time passes and new techniques and genetics are tried

 

[Swimmingdancer]

Thai sticks were not dipped in opium and they were not "blunts".

Thai sticks were very high quality, sticky, dark, near-sinse buds tied to a sliver of bamboo and then bundled together for export. Thai sticks were considered some of the best herbal cannabis available before domestic sinse took over the USA in the late 1970s. By that time, importers had mostly given up on the sticks and were just importing the same herb loose or lightly pressed into bricks. It was everywhere in the US in the late 70s through mid 80s simply as "Thai Weed". As the situation in Thailand evolved most of the herb began to be grown in neighboring SE Asian countries, but would still usually be referred to as "Thai" but was also called "Cambo" or "Buddha", etc. As the import herb market yielded to domestic cultivation in the mid 80s Thai cannabis largely disappeared, and AFAIA most people today say most of the earlier awesome strains are no longer cultivated commercially.

This is true. It's just a rumour/myth that they were dipped in opium and "Thai stick" referred specifically to the way the herb was bound to it's stem or later, to thin bamboo sticks, and the fact that it was from Thailand. It was considered the best cannabis available in the 1970s. People I know look back on it with very fond memories. It was also common for Thai sticks to be dipped in hash oil. Nowadays, some people have co-opted the term "Thai stick" to refer to any high-quality marijuana bound to it's own stem (or to a stick) and dipped in hash oil. You can sometimes get it in California.

 

[Artificial Emotion]

Dude... modern DANK strains can get to 30% THC. You really think that some Thai farmer out in the middle of the jungle can replicate the conditions needed to grow weed of that nature?

Yes!

No amount of breeding in 30 years can significantly surpass what's been achieved in thousands of selective line breeding by dedicated farmers. To think otherwise is arrogant.

There were samples of SE Asian landraces that were just as potent as the 'dank' weed of today. It's just that better weed is more common today.

 

[Kenaz]

He told me that African and Thai Sativa's that they smoked back then just gave a very upbeat and happy high, he described smoking Thai strains as taking a "light e-roll" that only lasted for a while. Although he thoroughly enjoyed the experience, he told me that the stuff he buys from dispensaries now, one or two hits and he is fairly medicated. This guy is a veteran smoker.

A South African acquaintance of mine recently sent me some Durban Poison. It didn't look or smell like much but it smoked very nicely. No, it's not as strong as some of the high end dispensary stuff available today, but as your friend said, it's a very upbeat and happy high. It reminded me of some of the best Colombian Gold I smoked in my misspent youth. And as far as "much stronger" goes, I'd say on the average weed today is considerably stronger than in the 1970s -- BUT the best weed at that time was every bit as good as most of the weed going around today and gave you a better high.

 

[Artificial Emotion]

I'd say on the average weed today is considerably stronger than in the 1970s -- BUT the best weed at that time was every bit as good as most of the weed going around today and gave you a better high.

Thank you Kenaz, this is exactly what I've been try to say all along.

 

[Kenaz]

Thank you Kenaz, this is exactly what I've been try to say all along.

Another thing I'd note is that almost all of today's strains are bred to be grown indoors. They're bushier with thicker buds and have a relatively short flowering time. A pure Sativa is going to be much taller than an Indica or Indica hybrid: it's also going to take anywhere from 12 to 24 weeks to reach its full flowering potential have long, thin, ropy buds that don't look like a High Times photoshoot. And the yield per plant and per square meter is not going to be as high as it will be with contemporary indoor-grown herb. This isn't so much of an issue when you've got a few acres to work with, but when you're running your grow op in your bedroom or garage it is going to be a major problem.

tl/dr: those "big donkey dick buds" have more to do with growers maximizing profits than with the actual quality of the smoke.

 

[Chainer]

alright this has officially become strain discussion

 

[Artificial Emotion]

I find it funny how some people seem to think growing outdoors in a field will produce less potent plants. This is generally not the case at all, all things being equal it's rather more dependent on the genetics. Many people seem to conflate shitty 'shwag' bud with all outdoor growing, when people often even manage to grow the highest quality weed even in the UK if the strain is mould resistant, weed which would rival that grown indoors under artificial lighting. So further towards the equator in better climates if done properly, a sinsemilla crop can be of superb quality. I'm not saying there aren't other variables like stray pollen, bad weather or other issues that can affect the success of a crop, but good results are possible with a bit of care.

Farmers in SE Asia and other parts of the world have been selectively line breeding favourable traits for thousands of years, successfully. It's like the development of the original brassicas into broccoli, cabbage etc. all from a common plant. This took thousands of years with gold old fashioned breeding. So what I'm saying is don't underestimate the basic selective breeding that's been used for since the beginning of plant cultivation, it can transform plants in to many completely different vegetables if enough time is available. That's more than any modern plant breeder using statistical analysis, modern plant breeding methods and even a lot of genetic engineering has even achieved in recent decades.

 

[cabrona]

headband is my personal favorite strain, and some shit i got two years ago that was BRIGHT and completely purple (no green, it almost didn't look like weed).

 

[Artificial Emotion]

^ 707 or Reserva Privada (or another)?

 

[FrostyMcFailure]

Regional Land race & IBL's ftw

 

[Perplexity]

I'm currently growing Reserva Privada's Cole Train (Jasmine x Silver Haze Hybrid) and Dinafem Cheese right now outdoors, organic.

Has anyone had experience with these genetics? The few threads I've found through google are incomplete with the exception of one, and that journal grew the Cole Train indoors when it was bred to grow outdoors, so I can't make a fair comparison. Thoughts/experiences?

 

[Shabang]

Dude, this is not true. Stop propagating the "Marijuana isn't stronger today" myth.

I have personal experience with this type of stuff. I used to have an Egyptian American neighbor who was born and raised in New York City and is one of the lucky one's who can still smoke to this day. He told me that the Thai strains back then were not as strong as any of the strains he is smoking now, but that the high was extremely different.

He told me that African and Thai Sativa's that they smoked back then just gave a very upbeat and happy high, he described smoking Thai strains as taking a "light e-roll" that only lasted for a while. Although he thoroughly enjoyed the experience, he told me that the stuff he buys from dispensaries now, one or two hits and he is fairly medicated. This guy is a veteran smoker.

I have also talked to an older dispensary owner here in Northern California who has told me the same thing. However, he noted that Thai and African genetics tend to be much stronger than genetics from other parts of the world. In other words, Thai back then was the strongest you could get due to the genetics and Thai and African strains you can get now are strong, but that the weed in this day and age is BY FAR stronger.

The Cannabis today is much stronger (end story) I have talked to many older people in cannabis clinics here in California who tell me the exact same thing. One guy described the high of 70's weed to be "mellow" and the high of today's weed as "intense".

As I have mentioned, I have had the pleasures to smoke weed with higher CBD levels and ower THC levels, specifically the "Harlequin" california strain which is a combination of Swiss, Thai, and Columbian genetics and is almost always clocked at 6% THC and 8% CBD and the high is extremely different than anything else I used to smoke. Very mellow and easy going high.

Crossing pure varieties makes GOOD hybrids, and the best hybrids were the first hybrids. Then, the first hybrids got poly-hybridized and the original stock was diluted, deteriorated and even lost, and turned into what we have now: soup. With every subsequent polyhybridization it gets even more dilute and eroded at the same time.
If people in the late 60s would have understood how to keep varieties pure, and how to develop F1 Hybrids for release only, we could have alot to work with but they didnt know, and they wanted to hawk seeds. They didnt know ANYTHING about how plants bred. Frickn Skunkman was just a kid. Many think he was some kind of legendary genius, but the first Hybrids performed great because they had GENETIC DISTANCE back then. The frickn honeybees and the WIND in California were making Skunk#1 seeds that were as good as Skunkmans, Haze Bros and whoever else jumped on the pot seed bandwagon back then.
And the people today who manipulate cannabis dont know either.

ANY improvement of drug cannabis that arose was entirely caused by the genetic distance of the First Hybrids. Thats almost gone completely now. Its becoming more and more reduced as the gene pool becomes more and more RELATED, which the Seed Bizz, including the patrons, facilitate.
I would like to hear how ANY seedlines from online noobtique breeders are beneficial to the gene pool. Small population re-mixes of re-mixes of re-mixes arent beneficial to the gene pool in the least! High selection pressures, and short-term breeding programs based only on phenotype and small populations are not effective at directing genetic gain...get real. Im pointing my finger at all of that junk-of-reduced-potential.

Yes, and modern breeders AS A WHOLE need to get over this idea that they CAN produce ACTUAL SEEDLINE IMPROVEMENTS with their poor methods when they simply cannot.

 

[justsayknow]

^Polyhybrids arent all that are out there though. I'm pretty sure people are still growing a lot of the original strains both in the countries of origin and in the west.

 

[Shabang]

I don't know of anybody who is truly preserving what is soon to be lost, ie., un hybridized landrace genetics that can be improved on with proper breeding and made commercially available to the public like properly bred plants that are next to free in comparison to the crap on sale now. Granted, I happen to like some of that crap.
We are actually losing valuable genes and there is no way to ever get them back again once they are gone. When you mix something up so much and you have nothing pure left... just think about it....

The gene pool is finite. It is not HUGE AND IMMENSE, rather it is comparitively SMALL against the genetic diversity of many other species in this world. The reason you dont see genetic degredation in other plant species is because those species are not OVER-manipulated by stoners. It probably looks infinite to people who are commenting against genetic conservation here or saying they have just made their first seeds...but it is NOT. The gene pool is ALL IN and the only thing left is a slow process of gene losses.

Examples: The gene controlling 'limonene' or 'pinene'(terpenoids) are the same in rural Afghani, as in equatorial sativas. Just like the genes controlling hair color in dogs are fundamentally the same genetic sequences controlling hair color in gophers and elk. Do you understand that?
Another example: Over 98% of the DNA in humans, is carried by chimpanzees. That means that the EXACT SAME genetic sequences on the chromosomes are present in both species, and in ALL individuals, barring a new mutation in these sequences; 98% of the genes controlling chimpanzee phenotype are NO DIFFERENT than our own. It is the FEW other genes(mutations) that makes chimp phenotype different than our own. Its not much. ONE single genetic change in ONE gene can have profound phenotypical changes, as we see from this one example.

The point here is. I think people overestimate the true amount of genetic diversity in this world and mistakenly believe that one must have had to germinate every seed in the cannabis gene pool in order to make an educated guess on the amount of genetic diversity that lies within it. I will emphatically state again: 1) I have seen enough of the gene pool to know that it is NOT INFINITE. (Many people can back that up. Skunkman himself once said there was a study done by real pot scientists which eluded that there was not very much genetic diversity in drug cannabis they tested. Did you ever hear that?) 2) The gene pool is not PRODUCING NEW GENES faster than they are lost through poor breeding. And, 3) the few genes that support significant phenotypic/chemotypic outliers of any kind on drug cannabis are ALL IN. I dont believe there are many genes we have not explored yet, through the introgression of even unicorporated land races - if there are any.

New genetic diversity will have to come from natural mutations, genetic engineering, and polyploidy.

 

[justsayknow]

I don't know of anybody who is truly preserving what is soon to be lost, ie., un hybridized landrace genetics that can be improved on with proper breeding and made commercially available to the public like properly bred plants that are next to free in comparison to the crap on sale now.

I can think of two seed co.s that say they are, how effective they are in doing that I couldn't say. The one thing I can say is that in general third world growers are likely to keep growing the local strains they have on hand- they aren't going to grow expensive hybrids from a seed company when they have seeds for strong cannabis available for free with proven results. I'm thinking rural areas of Africa (Except Urban South Africa), Asia and India here I'm not too sure about the Americas.

Interesting points though it does make you think that commercial seed banks may not always be the best way to procure seeds.

 

[Shabang]

I have not personally seen hundreds or thousands of progeny in a progeny test from ANY of the seed producers. Ive never seen a thread clearly showing seedline improvement that went on for years.. Shit, most of the speed hacks wont even DISCUSS plant breeding. This is the problem; nobody wants to admit they are making trash and so we continue down the escalator of erosion and whack seedjobs for a little cash for the breeder and alot of cash for the main pimp (the seed bank owner).
I would like to see these "breeders" try to put their SEED-SELLING away, make REAL inbred lines and store them. They're only supporting the machine by hawking their SMALL population releases. For what? paper? internet fame from idiots/seed buyers?

You are not going to find even ONE stabilized True F1 Hybrid that has been engaged in a long-term breeding program. So you wont need to bother with chopping your leg off for any.
They simply arent evaluating 2000 plants each generation or doing recurrent selection on that size group each generation, out to f6. I dont care if their facility is 10,000 acres in Humboldt County; they are not evaluating plants on a proper scale. Basically, (again) What it comes down to is this: we dont have enough resources -in seed form and in legality-, nor the requisite breeding facilities (open acreage, plus other controlled environments) to even MAINTAIN germplasm properly, let alone improve it.
I am proposing to have these so-called "breeders" and others finally acknowledge this, and do their part to stop facilitating the erosion of the remainder of the gene pool, through MINIMIZING sexual
reproductions of the gene pool with insufficient plant counts. If you cant make the seeds properly, dont.

I think people like Tom Hill, Chimera, Charlie Garcia could and would do good work if it was legal to breed pot on a proper scale. But since it is not, they DONT. They dont have to do anything but make simple crosses and people will rely on the fact that they know more about genetics than the next guys, but thats not enough to make their seeds better. Its a numbers game too. And all the insight in the world doesnt make up for the deficits of short-term programs on small populations, no progeny tests, no F1 hybrid production, etc..

I am repeatedly inundated with requests from people for tips on breeding, because as they tell me "breeding is the next step in becoming a good grower". This is nonsense... breeding is not as simple as taking two plants and mating them and giving the seedlot a fancy name and marketing it. 99% of people offering seeds today should not even be making seed, as they have no intention OR ABILITY to make genetic improvements.
What's wrong with just growing great dope? It's an honourable task in and of itself..... why not just do something really well, as opposed to doing something poorly... that damages a resource we ALL need?

I didnt mean to say that every single seedlot in the world was mixed yet. I meant to say that there is not any NEW, USEFUL or IMPORTANT genetic resources left to explore from drug accessions in this world. ALL the genes you can come up with at your C.AM location are already IN the genepool. All the genes for flowers, seeds, stems, yield, potency, aromas, height, adaptive ability, resistance, etc... are already ALL IN. All the pot breeders in the world have already gathered the genetics that are useful for marijuana, and integrated them. What you are going to make or collect now is just a REPEAT of what is already in the genepool.

However, the fact is that modern junk IS making it's way in to the wild and it's very problematic as all it takes is one male (insert hyped hybrid here), toss pollen out by some pure Afghan field to cause havoc.
The number of fully isolated and properly maintained drug land races is on the decline, not the rise. ...Due to global prohibition, farmers opting for DUTCH INDICA POLYHYBRIDS over their native land races, and a global ignorance among the stewards of the gene pool to resist introgression of western hackjobs into their native populations.
Modern landrace farmers are not skilled or educated enough to know how to handle their seed populations. They have never understood the best way to maintain a population. With the information of modern plant breeders (REAL ONES), they could be reducing gene loss and genetic drift.

The vast majority of landraces may already be extinct simply because of neglect resulting from modern market pressures.
Because of the technical and financial difficulties of reproducing the VIR Cannabis collection there has likely been considerable loss of genetic diversity and purity through low population sizes and incomplete isolation. In addition, many of their accessions may be so similar to each other that they need no longer be represented and reproduced as separate accessions resulting in pointless extra maintenance, storage and reproduction costs.

The last 60-70 years have been disastrous for the Cannabis gene pool, and many local landrace varieties, the result of hundreds of years of selection for local use, have been lost because of Cannabis suppression and eradication, neglect on the part of agricultural officials and industry, anti-hemp propaganda and the general trend (until recently) to reduce industrial hemp breeding and research. Genetic materials are a living heritage and we are their custodians. We must concentrate our efforts to collect, preserve, characterize and utilize the remaining Cannabis genetic resources before it is too late.

The first crosses did not require longterm -or even insightful- breeding work to be better than their individual parents (Skunk#1, Haze, NL).
Modern polyhybrid cannabis has become more INTER-RELATED through amateur breeding with small populations and does not provide the same levels of heterosis as the First Crosses. I said 'it' (rare unexplored drug cannabis) was ALMOST completely gone. That is TRUE. Even if YOU find (what you think is) a rare unexplored LAND RACE, your options for making a truly exceptional F1 Hybrid for indoor use are more limited today than ever before. THAT is entirely due to the polyhybridization of the drug gene pool by amateur breeders.
Land race cannabis is not improved for indoor drug cultivation anyway. Theres no hard and fast Rule that all rare land race cannabis is the best germplasm to have to make exceptional seedlines. No.
Its more of a 'plan B', for when the breeding material you have is inadequate and can be improved by the land race.

In regards to maintenance of diversity within a population. It's the frequency of more rare alleles and allelic combinations that will determine an effective population size for regeneration and nobody anywhere has come up with the perfect number I don't think, the more the better is all that can truly be said.

 

[justsayknow]

^ The scale you are talking about would only be possible in places where cannabis is legal or at least growing is legal. That VIR hemp genetics program seems like a good start it's a shame it hasn't been maintained well.

What do you think about the things that are happening with GW pharmaceuticals? They seem like one of the places in the West where controlled scientific breeding and testing is going on but the resulting product is likely to be tightly held and purely for commercial profit. I don't really know much about it and obviously its not for recreational use but they will have a lot of important information for the future of the plant.

 

[Artificial Emotion]

Shabang I agree with the sentiment of your posts but fear not, there are still people preserving landrace strains, such as the Real Seed Co. Others are collecting landrace strains from point of origin and incorporating them into breeding programmes. The emerald triangle seed co is an example of one. As well as clone only strains they also use landrace genetics to introduce a variety of of new genes not found in the genetic soup of modern poly/interway-hybrids. Other examples of similar seed cos are Mandala Seed Co and quite a few others. However, yes, the vast majority definitely just release rehashed strains that are just a recombination of strains already on the market. Whilst it may not cause inbreeding depression, it certainly gives the feeling that most strains are quite 'samey' and bland.

I'm interested in the Emerald Triangle Seeds Cherry OG. Here's the description:

Emerald Triangle Seeds Cherry OG We combined these two flavorful and distinct strains to provide some tasty variations in this F1 release. The Cherry Thai was crossed initially with an old Afghan for density and finish, we then back-crossed it several times to bring out the characteristic flavors and soaring high of the original Cherry Thai mom. We then crossed it with out Lost Coast OG to give it potency and a sour twist. Vigorous vegetative growth; performs best with a steady intake of nitrogen, calcium and magnesium to ensure a strong green fi nish. Flower her through 10 weeks and you will be rewarded with a surprisingly abundant harvest. The buds are dense and medium-sized, oozing with resin. The buds down the stem can be used to make extremely flavorful and potent extracts. Expect three major terpine variations, from Sweet Cherry to an almost Sour Diesel fl avor, due to the Chemdawg infl uence. Cherry OG produces a lucid, uplifting high, with the body relaxation of a classic Kush stone. Prepare yourself for a carefree activity and enjoy the day.