[Mega] Harm protection supplements

[Advanc3d]

Oh don't forget "Alpha lipoic acid" or even better, the more potent isomer "R-Alpha lipoic acid".

It has been said to be one of the most powerful neuro antioxidants. And I believe one study did prove it was quite effective at preventing neurotoxicity with MDMA. Might pay to research on this as it has another beneficial effects, such as recycling Vitamin E and C back into the cells.

Update to add link of lipoic/mdma study http://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?ID=297

Alpha lipoic acid is really short lived. its good but for the price and considering you need to redose a few times during your peak, as well as every 2-3 hours Post MDMA, it can get expensive.

EGCG (green tea) is pretty potent it self.

 

[Advanc3d]

If you are going to say piracetam is a must, then you should add DMAE or other acetylcholine precursors to use with it. Using piracetam for a few days without choline supplementation will give you headaches... whether MDMA use would enhance the depletion effect could be debated, but I don't have the proper experience to comment. I always take choline supps with piracetam no matter what...

Also what about something like a Superfood supplement that might contain multiple elements on this list? Biotest has an excellent product out now that might be of interest. I have been eating it a lot lately, tastes great. It has a lot of polyphenol extracts in it... the ORAC (Oxygen Radical Absorbing Capacity Factor) factor in 1 serving is 5,000. The label says 1 serving of fruit or vegetable has a factor of approximately 500.

And protein supplementation? Whey protein is one of the highest quality nutrients to give your body... pure amino acids; our bodies eat that shit up, especially after a strenuous roll. Great for maximizing recovery efforts. =P

DMAE is actually not that good,
its a very slow releasing Choline, it potentiates stimulants, but in a bad way, it causes to much anxiety. i have 100grams that i never use anymore.

it also requires double methylation by the liver.. which isnt good for your liver..

theres a fair few negative studies on it and how it can shorten life.

the choline source i recommend is Lecitin (taken with Vitamin B5).


I personally would not use products with multiple ingedients simply because i like to make my own combinations as differnt combinations are needed at different times.

You dont need "protein supplements" unless you need a diet that requires high protein (above your daily amount from food sources)


Also, protein powder will be used by the body as protein for muscles. Whey protein has a lot of Tyrosine and tryptophan, even though these are serotonin and dopamine precusors, your body doesnt see it that way when they are incombination with other amino acids. your body will use it for muscle building instead..


Even though your body feels like shit and worn out after doing MDMA, its actually because of sleep deprivation and the used up Adrenaline and a bunch of other things

 

[PsychedelicPeptide]

Hah well I totally disagree that protein supplementation is just "for the muscles." What do you think your brain uses? I would like to see you cite a source for the comment "your body doesn't see it that way when they are incombination with other amino acids. your body wlll use it for muscle building instead."

I don't think in the post-roll state your body is thinking much about building muscle rather than just getting itself back to its normal steady state. Why don't you look up what the adrenaline precursors are and then again tell me that protein supplementation is not a good idea? "A bunch of other things" ... please expand what you think they are so I can again use it to support why protein supplementation is beneficial to recovering from a roll.

And the point of a choline precursor is less "what is the best one" but more of just taking something with piracetam to keep you from getting a headache due to depleted acetylcholine supplies. I have no sources for this possibility, but I sure as hell wouldn't want a piracetam-induced headache the day after rolling because I have no acetylcholine left, on top of other things.

 

[Advanc3d]

Hah well I totally disagree that protein supplementation is just "for the muscles." What do you think your brain uses? I would like to see you cite a source for the comment "your body doesn't see it that way when they are incombination with other amino acids. your body wlll use it for muscle building instead."

I don't think in the post-roll state your body is thinking much about building muscle rather than just getting itself back to its normal steady state. Why don't you look up what the adrenaline precursors are and then again tell me that protein supplementation is not a good idea? "A bunch of other things" ... please expand what you think they are so I can again use it to support why protein supplementation is beneficial to recovering from a roll.

And the point of a choline precursor is less "what is the best one" but more of just taking something with piracetam to keep you from getting a headache due to depleted acetylcholine supplies. I have no sources for this possibility, but I sure as hell wouldn't want a piracetam-induced headache the day after rolling because I have no acetylcholine left, on top of other things.

the headaches are really dose dependant and it doesnt happen to everyone, i went on taking 6 or so grams a day for a good 6 months with no headaches, though the normal dose would be around a gram or so a day. piracetam has a u-turn effect, to high a dose starts to have the opposite effect, in terms of nootopic effect.. im guessing you should know that.


i never implied what is the "best" Choline source is, but sure as hell DMAE has a lot of negative reaserch behind it that would scare people to even look at it.


even though i dont have a source for this at hand. in whey protetin, the amino acids work together for muscle building because they are combined as such and in the specific ratio,
but if u really want i can look for some sources that does say that tyrosine and tryptophan in combination in whey protein ARE used for muscle building rather for serotonin or dopamine purposes. they also compete in the gut for absorption.
and when i say used for "muscle building", i mean when the muscle needs it, e.g after weight lifting. if not it is turned in to fat or you piss out any excess..

also Whey protein has a lot of L-Cysteine, since it contributes to Neurotoxicity if taken within 3 days after and before MDMA use, i rather stay away from it





here is some sources for my Piracetam & choline information

Although choline administration raised choline content about 50% in striatum and cortex, changes in acetylcholine levels were much more subtle (only 6-10%). No significant changes following choline administration were observed in the hippocampus. However, piracetam alone markedly increased choline content in hippocampus (88%) and tended to decrease acetylcholine levels (19%). No measurable changes in striatum or cortex were observed following piracetam administration. The combination of choline and piracetam did not potentiate the effects seen with either drug alone, and in certain cases the effects were much less pronounced under the drug combination.

http://www.lef.org/prod_hp/abstracts/piracetam.html

 

[Advanc3d]

Also,

If you were to take tyrosine and/or tryptophan after MDMA, let me tell you, they wont work.

the enzymes that convert them to l-dopa and 5-htp are depleted for up to 2 weeks after MDMA usage, that is why depletion continues to happen after MDMA usage

 

[organicshroom]

Alpha lipoic acid is really short lived. its good but for the price and considering you need to redose a few times during your peak, as well as every 2-3 hours Post MDMA, it can get expensive.

EGCG (green tea) is pretty potent it self.

I believe it is still more than worthy of an addition to the list. The blood plasma levels of lipoic acid might be short lived, but it's antioxidant activity within the brain could be long lasting.

I don't think a price is an issue when you have a proven compound that could be the difference between saving your brain or not.


P.S. Other than that, great list! Very interesting.... Thankyou for sharing all that info.

 

[PsychedelicPeptide]

So according to you, if your body has no need to rebuild muscle, then the protein "is turned in to fat or you piss out any excess." Wow... that alone is reason enough to refute anything else you say.

L-cysteine is an antioxidant. I suggest you re-read whatever it was that makes you think it is will enhance MDMA neurotoxicity. It is not the savior E heads are looking for, but it is not going to hurt you. Try doing a search "MDMA cysteine neurotoxicity" and see what comes up.

Do you even know what you are saying by stating "the enzymes that convert them to l-dopa and 5-htp are depleted?" By your logic, if they are depleted then they must be rebuilt right? Ask yourself then what an enzyme is made from and why taking a protein supplement would not help ensure that you body has the capacity to execute this process most efficiently?

 

[MazDan]

Keep it civil please.

If you wish to argue the point then do so by providing sourced information.

 

[Advanc3d]

So according to you, if your body has no need to rebuild muscle, then the protein "is turned in to fat or you piss out any excess." Wow... that alone is reason enough to refute anything else you say.

L-cysteine is an antioxidant. I suggest you re-read whatever it was that makes you think it is will enhance MDMA neurotoxicity. It is not the savior E heads are looking for, but it is not going to hurt you. Try doing a search "MDMA cysteine neurotoxicity" and see what comes up.

Do you even know what you are saying by stating "the enzymes that convert them to l-dopa and 5-htp are depleted?" By your logic, if they are depleted then they must be rebuilt right? Ask yourself then what an enzyme is made from and why taking a protein supplement would not help ensure that you body has the capacity to execute this process most efficiently?

im taking Mazdan's advice and.....



tryptophan hydroxylase depletion

A. Depletion of tryptophan hydroxylase to form serotonin

Activity of tryptophan hydroxylase, the rate-limiting enzyme required to form serotonin from its dietary precursor, L-tryptophan, is greatly reduced after repeated large doses of MDMA. This is due to oxidation of key sulfhydryl groups of the enzyme. The reduced activity of tryptophan hydroxylase may take up to two weeks to return to normal. (41)

MDMA decreases activity of the enzyme tryptophan hydroxylase for an extended length of time. This impairs the ability of the cell to make serotonin and to replace the MDMA-depleted stores.

http://www.naturalsolutionsradio.com/articles/article.html?id=8655&filter=

MDMA-inactivated cortical tryptophan hydroxylase derived from rats killed later than 3 days after drug treatment could not be significantly reactivated under the conditions described above, indicating the development of irreversible enzymatic damage. Kinetic analysis of enzyme reactivation revealed an approximate doubling of enzyme Vmax with no change in enzyme affinity for either substrate, tryptophan, or pterin cofactor. These studies suggest that MDMA and its congeners inactivate central tryptophan hydroxylase by inducing oxidation of key enzyme sulfhydryl groups.

http://www.mdma.net/tryptophan-hydroxylase/post-e.html


Cysteine and Neurotoxicity

In humans the primary metabolites are 3,4-dihydroxymethamphetamine (HHMA), and 3,4-dihydroxyamphetamine (HMA). (92) These are further metabolized into conjugates with glutathione (cysteine and NAC) which may undergo subsequent oxidation to produce even more potent neurotoxins

Since NAC is one of the best ways to boost GSH, but may also contribute to NT, it is important not to use NAC for 2-3 days prior to MDMA, and to resume it 2-3 days after use, when free radical levels have returned to normal.

http://www.naturalsolutionsradio.com/articles/article.html?id=8655&filter=




Protein and fat

What happens to the protein:

It is broken down into building blocks known as peptides.

Then, it is further broken down and it becomes amino acids.

The amino acids are absorbed through the small intestine's lining and enter the blood stream.

From here, some of the amino acids build the body's protein stores.

Excess amino acids are converted to fats and sugars and follow the paths described above.

This is such a simple concept, but many people still believe that consuming lots and lots of protein will put muscle on their bones. Don't be fooled by this notion! Even excess protein turns to fat.

 

[Advanc3d]

More Negative about cysteine,

But cysteine is probably unsafe for routine oral administration. When circulating in the blood it readily auto-oxidizes to potentially toxic degradation products. Saez and collaborators demonstrated that the highly reactive hydroxyl radical is among the products formed from the auto-oxidation of cysteine.(94) Cysteine also has “excitotoxin” activity in the brain, similar to that of the amino acids glutamate and aspartate, and can be toxic to the retina. GSH has none of these liabilities, and the GSH redox system may have evolved to supplant the relatively fallible, cysteine-based system.

http://www.thorne.com/media/glutathione.pdf


Mechanisms of L-Cysteine Neurotoxicity

Abstract We review here the possible mechanisms of neuronal degeneration caused by L-cysteine, an odd excitotoxin. L-Cysteine lacks the omega carboxyl group required for excitotoxic actions via excitatory amino acid receptors, yet it evokes N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) -like excitotoxic neuronal death and potentiates the Ca2+ influx evoked by NMDA. Both actions are prevented by NMDA antagonists. One target for cysteine effects is thus the NMDA receptor. The following mechanisms are discussed now: (1) possible increase in extracellular glutamate via release or inhibition of uptake/degradation, (2) generation of cysteine -carbamate, a toxic analog of NMDA, (3) generation of toxic oxidized cysteine derivatives, (4) chelation of Zn2+ which blocks the NMDA receptor-ionophore, (5) direct interaction with the NMDA receptor redox site(s), (6) generation of free radicals, and (7) formation of S-nitrosocysteine. In addition to these, we describe another new alternative for cytotoxicity: (8) generation of the neurotoxic catecholamine derivative, 5-S-cysteinyl-3,4-dihydroxyphenylacetate (cysdopac).

http://www.springerlink.com/content/r613384gu6110614/


Transport of Amino acids limited / Blood brain barrier

Tryptophan is a relatively large amino acid, which requires the Large Amino Acid Transport Carrier protein, for transport through the blood brain barrier. Arteries supplying the brain contain an extra cell layer, called the blood-brain barrier, which prevents many toxins from entering the brain. The blood-brain barrier also limits transport of many amino acids into the brain. The Large Amino Acid Transport Carrier protein only carries one amino acid across the blood brain barrier at a time.

Amino Acids sharing the Large Amino Acid Transport Carrier include Tryptophan, Tyrosine, Phenylalanine, Leucine, Isoleucine and Valine. Unless l-tryptophan is taken away from other amino acids and proteins, very little is absorbed, since the Large Amino Acid Transport Carrier “bus” only transports one amino acid, at a time. Brain uptake of 5-HTP does not require the Large Amino Acid Transport Carrier “bus” and 5-HTP can be taken with other foods, including proteins.

http://www.floridadetox.com/depressionTryptophan.asp

 

[PsychedelicPeptide]

Cysteine and N-acetyl cysteine have been used to protect against MDMA and other amphetamine's neurotoxicity in rodents. Keep searching... please do not selectively put up research to bolster your stance. It is misinformative for the general reader. I'm not going to say taking 5 grams pure cysteine with MDMA is a good idea, but please read the context in which these studies are done. First and foremost, none are done in humans. And they also involve a lot of in vitro observations which can be misleading. Finally as there is obviously evidence that it can have both good and bad effects, I honestly would not even bring it up because the final story has really yet to be decided.

With the large AA transport protein, do you think your body has just one of these? And even if transport is "slow" does that mean it does not happen or is not needed in the first place? Why do you think it is there to begin with? Have there been studies on the rate of transport?

You still did not address the adrenaline issue you first brought up. The precursors for it are Phe and Tyr, so if you use up all your adrenaline during a roll, don't you think it would be wise to supplement something that could help you out? Or would you just rather eat whatever is laying around the kitchen?

For the protein source, notice is says things like "excess amino acids are converted to fat/sugar" and "some of the amino acids build the body's protein stores." In a stressful time, such as following an X binge, your body and mind will be screaming for nutrients to replenish everything you have just depleted. Sure if you take whey you might just excrete some percent of it, but that doesn't mean what your body needs it won't suck up and use to the fullest extent. Or would you again rather just eat whatever is lying around and pray for the best?

Also what about adding unsaturated omega-3,6,9 fatty acid supplements to your list? They have excellent anti-inflammatory properties, in addition to many other benefits.

 

[PsychedelicPeptide]

Oh yea and all this talk about cysteine has gotten me distracted from what's really in protein supplements. Cystine, the disulfide paired cysteine dimer, is the form added to quality whey products. They do not specifically put pure cysteine in it... for some of the reasons you mention. I highly suggest you rethink your decision to write off my suggestion of whey protein as something to be ignored as an agent to help prevent MDMA-induced neurological or whole-body harm issues.

 

[MazDan]

Keep searching... please do not selectively put up research to bolster your stance.

What we are looking for is for you to do the searching to support your argument.

 

[Advanc3d]

Cysteine and N-acetyl cysteine have been used to protect against MDMA and other amphetamine's neurotoxicity in rodents. Keep searching... please do not selectively put up research to bolster your stance. It is misinformative for the general reader. I'm not going to say taking 5 grams pure cysteine with MDMA is a good idea, but please read the context in which these studies are done. First and foremost, none are done in humans. And they also involve a lot of in vitro observations which can be misleading. Finally as there is obviously evidence that it can have both good and bad effects, I honestly would not even bring it up because the final story has really yet to be decided.

With the large AA transport protein, do you think your body has just one of these? And even if transport is "slow" does that mean it does not happen or is not needed in the first place? Why do you think it is there to begin with? Have there been studies on the rate of transport?

You still did not address the adrenaline issue you first brought up. The precursors for it are Phe and Tyr, so if you use up all your adrenaline during a roll, don't you think it would be wise to supplement something that could help you out? Or would you just rather eat whatever is laying around the kitchen?

For the protein source, notice is says things like "excess amino acids are converted to fat/sugar" and "some of the amino acids build the body's protein stores." In a stressful time, such as following an X binge, your body and mind will be screaming for nutrients to replenish everything you have just depleted. Sure if you take whey you might just excrete some percent of it, but that doesn't mean what your body needs it won't suck up and use to the fullest extent. Or would you again rather just eat whatever is lying around and pray for the best?

Also what about adding unsaturated omega-3,6,9 fatty acid supplements to your list? They have excellent anti-inflammatory properties, in addition to many other benefits.

you do realise one of routes of neurotoxicity within MDMA or any amphetamine substance is dopamine toxicity, that is when dopamine gets taken by the SERTS thinking its serotonin, then it being metabolised by MAO-B... causing the formation of Hydrogen Peroxide....

Oxidative stress lasts up to 48 hours or beyond depending on factors.
considering adrenaline is made though this cycle | dopamine > noradrenaline > adrenaline | we are going to have to feed our selves dopamine precursors, whether its tyrosine or l-dopa will raise these neurotransmitters, therefore causing further neurotoxicity after MDMA use.. hence why its wise to start taking these a few days after...

L-Phenylalanine has been shown ineffective in this purpose. go take a read on this site
http://neuroassist.com/


i never advised on Esctasy "binging" if someone were going to go on a "Esctasy binge" then i dont think the person is smart at all. especially thinking taking supplements and then thinking there brain/body is now immortal will allow them to pop 10+ pills on the weekend and not suffer..



the Cysteine study that says that it is "effective" agaisnt MDMA toxicity is done in animals, because they have differnt metabolites of MDMA.. if u read the source then you would understand. In the human body different metabolites have been identified which would have a negative effect with cysteine.


fish oil is probablly one of the ultimate supplements, i forgot to add it, will do this afternoon. as wel as methyl donors

 

[organicshroom]

13. Acetyl-L-Carnitine Arginate
Description: NGF agent (nerve growth factor) stimulates the growth of neurites in the brain. it MAY reverse neurotoxicity and protect the brain from peroxynitrites (very potent neurotoxin that causes harsh oxidative stress)

Dosage: 2000mg a day of Ordinary Acetyl-l-Carnitine, or 800mg of Arginate form. its a good idea to have a combination of both as they work together

Note: Arginate is fairly expensive but it is a lot more potent and beneficial, otherwise you can just get the normal Acetyl-L-Carnitine

Instead of using the expensive Arginate version, could it be just as effective taking Acetyle-l-Carnitine with L-Arginie separately?? Considering that the arginate molecule is merely a novel patented combination of the two.

 

[miamiroller]

where can you get l-dopa in the US? All i can find is L-tyrosine. Should I just get that istead?

 

[Coolio]

you do realise one of routes of neurotoxicity within MDMA or any amphetamine substance is dopamine toxicity, that is when dopamine gets taken by the SERTS thinking its serotonin, then it being metabolised by MAO-B... causing the formation of Hydrogen Peroxide....

Oxidative stress lasts up to 48 hours or beyond depending on factors.
considering adrenaline is made though this cycle | dopamine > noradrenaline > adrenaline | we are going to have to feed our selves dopamine precursors, whether its tyrosine or l-dopa will raise these neurotransmitters, therefore causing further neurotoxicity after MDMA use.. hence why its wise to start taking these a few days after...

L-Phenylalanine has been shown ineffective in this purpose. go take a read on this site
http://neuroassist.com/


i never advised on Esctasy "binging" if someone were going to go on a "Esctasy binge" then i dont think the person is smart at all. especially thinking taking supplements and then thinking there brain/body is now immortal will allow them to pop 10+ pills on the weekend and not suffer..



the Cysteine study that says that it is "effective" agaisnt MDMA toxicity is done in animals, because they have differnt metabolites of MDMA.. if u read the source then you would understand. In the human body different metabolites have been identified which would have a negative effect with cysteine.

Did you read my post regarding Acetyl-L-carnitine?

 

[Advanc3d]

Instead of using the expensive Arginate version, could it be just as effective taking Acetyle-l-Carnitine with L-Arginie separately?? Considering that the arginate molecule is merely a novel patented combination of the two.

i read somewhere cause i was wondering the same thing,
it said on a site that combination is different to the arginate, it could be a marketing thing though

Did you read my post regarding Acetyl-L-carnitine?

yea i already have ALCAR on the topic post.

though ALCAR (acetyl-l-carnitine) apparently is potentiated a lot with the combination with Alpha lipoic acid. ill read more in to it

where can you get l-dopa in the US? All i can find is L-tyrosine. Should I just get that istead?

cognitivenutrition.com
thats the only site that sells pure l-dopa, cheapy too. everywhere else i seen sell it as a 40% extract

Tyrosine favors to be converted to Noradrenaline rather than Dopamine, simply since vitamin C, along with vitamin B6 are the co-factor for its metabolism, and vitamin C is also the co-factor of the enzyme for the conversion of dopamine to Noradrenaline

 

[organicshroom]

i read somewhere cause i was wondering the same thing,
it said on a site that combination is different to the arginate, it could be a marketing thing though

The arginate version is said to mimic a NGF (nerve growth factor) therefore stimulating the regrowth and repair of a brain cell according to your reference. They say taking arginate and Acetyle-l-Carnitine together have a synergising effect, the acetyle-l-carnitine encourages receptor growth for the arginate and other natural NGF's to act on. Is it clever chemistry or clever marketing?

 

[clayfig]

I just started to take a handfull of these and it seems that they are working, thanks for all the info