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Mdma & maoi

MasterOfDeception

MasterOfDeception

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Jun 1, 2006
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It's well known that MDMA & MAOI is a dangerous combo because of excessive amounts of serotonin causing 'serotonine' syndrome. Also studying the mechanisms amphetamines work , here in BL neuropharmacology thread, amphetamines are also slightly MAOIs.

So my question would be , couldn't one use the MAOI with SMALL dosage of mdma to potentiate it? Eg instead of taking 150mg MDMA one could take e.g 30mg MDMA in a combo with X quantity of harmaline or some other MAOI ?
 
sekio said:
Yes, but it's very risky because predicting interactions like that is hard and depends on the individual.
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Yeah that's what I was thinking too.
However that means that taking MDMA alone either can be dangerous in high dosages. Which is roughly the threshold above which there's serotonin syndrome danger?

Also I think that even if you do predict correctly, the experience won't be the same because in the first case you will have reverse transporting being the main reason for monoamine release, while in the second it will be the MAOI. Or it will be exactly the same because regardless of the mechanism the result would be the same increased amount of serotonin released? Maybe the difference would be that in each case the rate at which monoamine release increases is different? Anyone to clarify that ? The more I understand about neuroscience the more questions arise =D

Also, why is it not dangerous to mix MAOI with LSD?
 
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As sekio explained, all of these thresholds of damage are idiosyncratic. With MDMA + a nonselective MAOI, not only do you have slowed catabolism of monoamines, but MDMA itself is a MAO substrate (and these types of potentiation should be mutually synergistic). This is part of why such a combo is so unpredictable.

LSD, however, is a direct partial agonist at some 5ht sites, thus not increasing intercellular 5ht. LSD is also not a substrate for MAO.

ebola
 
Thanx. And any explanation for the more specific question I state in the end about the qualitative difference between some same-strength intakes of MDMA and MDMA+MAOI?
 
maoi selective for variant b: more stimulating at equivalently strong levels of effects.
maoi selective for a or non-selective: I don't know.

ebola
 
sekio said:
MDMA+ MAO-A inhibitor = serotonin syndrome / hypertensive crisis.
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As we agreed already, depends on the dosage.

Don't worry, I am not planning to do that combo, just wondering so that I have a better understanding of how things work on a neuroscience level.
 
MasterOfDeception said:
Just wondering so that I have a better understanding of how things work on a neuroscience level.
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The MDMA replaces the neurotransmitter noradrenaline (NAD) in the presynaptic nerve, this causes the NAD to increase in the nerve synapse (like a revolving door; one goes in, the other goes out). Normally the NAD is degraded by MAO, but when taken with a MAO inhibitor the NAD stops being degraded, this leads to an increase in the effects of NAD causing the hypertensive crises.

I don't think that an MAOi would increase the psychoactive effects of MDMA, it would be far more likely do some harm.
 
Probably not, a lot of MDMA's pharmacology is based off of several things beyond 5HT release. If I'm not mistaken 5HT2A binding has a huge role in it which might not be replicated with a low dose plus a MAO-A (assuming thats what you mean) inhibitor.

Also, try to avoid MDMA I'm in a pharmacology program and I've got to say that its not worth the risk.
 
onechance said:
The MDMA replaces the neurotransmitter noradrenaline (NAD) in the presynaptic nerve, this causes the NAD to increase in the nerve synapse (like a revolving door; one goes in, the other goes out). Normally the NAD is degraded by MAO, but when taken with a MAO inhibitor the NAD stops being degraded, this leads to an increase in the effects of NAD causing the hypertensive crises.

I don't think that an MAOi would increase the psychoactive effects of MDMA, it would be far more likely do some harm.
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Ok I was mostly searching for the answer in bold.

As for the rest, you are talking about the reverse transpor mechanism right? That's not only valid for NAD but for other monoamines such as dopamine and serotonin
 
Epsilon Alpha said:
Probably not, a lot of MDMA's pharmacology is based off of several things beyond 5HT release. If I'm not mistaken 5HT2A binding has a huge role in it which might not be replicated with a low dose plus a MAO-A (assuming thats what you mean) inhibitor.

Also, try to avoid MDMA I'm in a pharmacology program and I've got to say that its not worth the risk.
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What do you mean by this statement? Avoid MDMA on an MAOI? Or just avoid MDMA generally.
 
but then u arent getting the mdma affect, your simply taking less mdma. harmaline doesnt sound too bad , as it is tried and true; its proved relatively safe. but i wouldnt risk it at all with real prescription maoi's as those things can cause harmful interactions with the tyramine in cheese, mdma would definetely cause interaction
 
There's also the fact that SELECTIVE MAO-B inhibitors such as low to mid dose Selegiline significantly reduce, possibly even eliminate MDMA induced neurotoxicity[1][2]. It's even been seen to reduce negative side effects of Methamphetamine[3], which you'd assume would be a dangerous combination as it's a far more powerful stimulant than MDMA.

The important thing to note if you decide to try selegiline (which i've used with mdma a few times with fantastic results) is that it loses its selectivity at high doses. Never take more than 10mg a day to be on the safe side, and perhaps in seperate doses. I usually take an attack dose of 10 mg a 2 or 3 days before my roll, and then 5 mg a day untill the day of the event where I take a final 5 mg an hour before my first dose.

There is no significant effect in the buzz beyond some mental stimulation that somewhat offsets the serotonin induced urge to chill. For this reason it may be more noticeable if you're at a rave or somewhere where the priority is on dancing as opposed to say a house party where you'll be spending more time sat around chatting. Either way, the effect on the high is subtle. The best thing for me is reduced negative effects, most notably feeling faaaaar less burnt out in the days following and I've never had to put up with any terriible tuesdays. I do however tend to take plenty of Vitamin C and possibly other antioxidants afterwards, as well as eating plenty of tryptophan rich protein and carbs and other obvious recovery techniques which I'm sure all add up.

Sauce:
1. "The monoamine oxidase-B inhibitor L-deprenyl protects against 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine-induced lipid peroxidation and long-term serotonergic deficits"
2. "An antisense oligonucleotide targeted at MAO-B attenuates rat striatal serotonergic neurotoxicity induced by MDMA"
3. "Reduced cardiovascular effects of methamphetamine following treatment with selegiline"

There's other studies but that's the only site I can think of right now :)
 
There is no significant effect in the buzz beyond some mental stimulation that somewhat offsets the serotonin induced urge to chill. For this reason it may be more noticeable if you're at a rave or somewhere where the priority is on dancing as opposed to say a house party where you'll be spending more time sat around chatting. Either way, the effect on the high is subtle.
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This may be idiosyncratic: the degree and kind of potentiation will vary a lot by individual. Beginning with a full dose of MDMA will prove extremely reckless. Hell, I experienced a twofold increase in effects.

ebola
 
Anyone that has smoked a cigarette while on mdma has taken a powerful but reversible maoi-a and b inhibitor. Come on people its perfectly safe. Only irreversible inhibitors pose a problem.
 
"The dose makes the poison" - i'm not sure you'd get the same amount of harmine out of a cig as the amount of harmala alkaloids you'd get out of B. Caapi vine or syrian rue.
 
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