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  • EADD Moderators: Pissed_and_messed | Shinji Ikari

MDMA Crystal - 100% or 84% purity?

gooney

gooney

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Apr 1, 2010
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This has popped up a few times about whether crystal can 'only' ever be a max of 84% pure :

pothole said:
Crystal isn't 100% mdma, the highest it can be is around 85% pure. But a pill that has been tested in holland will get a result of the actual mdma. Ie 100mg of crystal will be at best 85mg mdma, a pill tested at 100mg you will get 100mg mdma. That's why some of the pills about at the minute seem so much stronger than the crystal in comparison to what you weight out. Obviously there is a certain amount of "spread" with pills.
It brings the price of pills closer to crystal mg for mg, plus I prefer the whole experience of taking a pill.
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Now I know diddly squat about chemistry but I saw this on a forum about crystal MDMA :

not true. MDMA.HCl has a maximum purity of 100%.

The molar mass of MDMA is 193.
The molar mass of MDMA.HCl is 229.
100X(193/229) = 84%

That's where the 84% myth comes from. It's all over the internet, and I've seen it a few times on this forum, yet I've never seen anyone challenge it.
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but then I also saw :

We've been doing this for a good while. Whilst Dutch MDMA is considered to be a lot more 'clinical' since their synth methods are much cleaner (they would be if your jail sentences are shorter than anywhere else for doing this kind of thing) - they also have test facilities to get as close as possible to that 84% maximum Anything produced elsewhere has a different personality to it. A lot of people mention 3D vivid hallucinations on the MDMA provided from the UK but this is due to the different synth methods involved and other physchoactive impurities which can be involved (I've had some previous batches of MDMA that have tested postive for MDA - a trace 'impurity' during the synth process.) But it was MDMA as could be recognised by the typical effects. Things like this can give MDMA its different personalities. I'm sure the pro's out there who know what they're doing when they buy MDMA from numerous vendors they notice these small differences in different batches. It's not exactly to 'strains' of Cannabis but different chemists have different touches right? ;) Plus people need to remember, frame of mind, serotonin levels, scene, setting and even company can really influence what your going to feel.

Furthermore, just to clarify this up, anyone offering MDMA as 100% pure isn't telling the whole truth, MDMA's maximum purity can only be around ~84% since Hcl makes up the rest of the crystal structure. MDMA freebase is an oil.
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Anyone know anything about chemistry that can tell me which is right - in terms of harm reduction, it'd be nice to know how much to reduce my harm by =D
 
Ok this is a linguistic answer rather than a chemical one (even though I'm a biochemist, hey ho...)

For me it depends on what you mean by purity, absolute quantity of MDMA on a molecule to molecule basis, or whether there are any other contaminants reducing the purity of the MDMA hcl you have. (definition of purity is the absence of impurities, ie contaminants, as far as I'm concerned at least)

I'd guess for most people, all they care about is the purity of their product re: contaminants, not how MDMA.HCl relates to MDMA freebase in term of molar mass.
 
Im no chemist but I guess that it can only be 84% maximum because it is a solid, if it were to be 100% it would not be in solid form or so ive been told. What pothole said is pretty much bang on. It is 100% pure so to speak as in no additives or impurities but 100mg of crystal is not really 100mg of MDMA.
 
Exactly, If your crystal is 100% pure, it means that your 100mg of crystal has 100% MDMA.HCl in. However the weight of your crystal doesn't represent the absolute quantity of MDMA as a solo, free-base, compared to the HCl. This is where I assume the debate arises, HCl Mwt contribution, vs any extraneous, non MDMA related chemicals?

Ergo, 84% to me, would be relatively, 100% to the layman, unless they have access to MDMA freebase?
 
Is mdma freebase oil stable/usable? Is there any reason it is manufactured and sold in it's crystal form?
 
Interesting about mdma freebase being caustic. Assuming we're saying 'purity' is determined by actual contaminants as opposed to %molar mass, how common is quite 'impure' mdma? Like what sort of stuff could be in there contaminating the eventual mdma.hcl crystals? Are we thinking stuff like pma etc from incomplete synthesis?
 
When people talk of MDMA base, they mean free molecules of MDMA which have 'basic' properties. A base is a substance which by chemical definition is a proton acceptor (Hydrogen ion H+) or is able to donate a pair of electrons (the two sides of the same coin). Basic substances tend to be caustic. MDMA base is a pure 'molecular' substance. It is an oily liquid at room temperature.
To make organic molecules like MDMA easier to use, a simple bit of chemistry is applied. Acid + Base makes Salt + water. So in the case of MDMA, if you react it with an acid, you will produce the salt of MDMA + water. Most people use Hydrochloric acid, HCl.

When talking of purity, there are a number of misconceptions, normally attributed to reaction yield. It is virtually impossible to turn all reactants into products in any chemical reaction. Theoretical yield is determined by knowing how much starting material could be converted into product. So, in theory if you could produce 100g of MDMA from your starting material, yet only get 84g, your yield is 84%. People sometimes mistake this for purity.

You could get 100% MDMA by purification and re-crystallization in theory. In reality, high quality MDMA will be in the 95-99% purity range. Anything from 85-94% could also be considered to be very good. The remaining impurities will change only the mass of material required to produce a desired effect. For instance, if 120mg of 100% pure MDMA is the optimum dose, yet your sample is 80% pure, then you will need another 20% starting material to get 120mg = + 24mg. So, you need 144mg 80% MDMA to get the same effect as 120mg 100% MDMA.
Simple :)
 
Was I correct in saying that crystal is only around 85% mdma? Whereas a lab tested pill the result is for "pure" mdma?
 
mrcientist said:
Aye yeah, I was thinking of precursors and byproducts as the main impurities
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Would it really work like that tho? I mean, if you spent money setting up a MDMA lab and went to the trouble of importing all the precursors from Cambodia I think you're gonna expect MDMA. If the chemist comes up to you and says "Er...it's something a bit like MDMA but there's a load of impurity in it" I think they'd just get another chemist. You don't spend money setting something up and risking your liberty only to hire a chemist who can't make MDMA to save his life.

I mean - ask yourself what's the first thing you'd do when you got a new chemist in and you'd just blown your lifes savings on a lab. You'd say "Make me the smallest batch of ecstasy you can first mate". Then you'd try it and see whether it was any good.

Any impurities are going to be added lower down the food chain by guys with bags of lactose.
 
Ismene said:
Any impurities are going to be added lower down the food chain by guys with bags of lactose.
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You would think so, but salts (which are ionic crystals) form during the process of re-crystallization. At different temperatures, salts have differing solubilities in a fixed volume of solvent at a constant temperature. Adding lactose to a solution of MDMA will yield MDMA + lactose when all the solvent is removed. It will have no effect on the content of the crystal of MDMA produced during synthesis and initial crystallisation.

The purity of a fixed mass of MDMA crystal is determined by how well the crystal lattice forms and the ability to remove impurities from the solvent. Performing a number of re-crystallisations will yield a higher purity salt. Big crystals form when they cool slower. Smaller crystals when the temperature is lowered quicker.

The higher quality MDMA is produced by those who pay more attention to these final stages. Higher purity = less mass to sell from a fixed quantity of reactants. Business.
 
Fifteen posts before Ismene gets involved in a purity argument? Fifteen?

This forum has truly gone to shit.
 
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