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  • EADD Moderators: Pissed_and_messed | Shinji Ikari

MDMA Crystal - 100% or 84% purity?

tragiclemming said:
When talking of purity, there are a number of misconceptions, normally attributed to reaction yield. It is virtually impossible to turn all reactants into products in any chemical reaction. Theoretical yield is determined by knowing how much starting material could be converted into product. So, in theory if you could produce 100g of MDMA from your starting material, yet only get 84g, your yield is 84%. People sometimes mistake this for purity.
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Yield is quoted in moles, not grams. If you put in one mole of precursor and get out one mole of MDMA, you have 100% yield. Doesn't matter if you used 100g or precursor and got out 110g of MDMA (not only possible, but common).


You could get 100% MDMA by purification and re-crystallization in theory. In reality, high quality MDMA will be in the 95-99% purity range. Anything from 85-94% could also be considered to be very good. The remaining impurities will change only the mass of material required to produce a desired effect. For instance, if 120mg of 100% pure MDMA is the optimum dose, yet your sample is 80% pure, then you will need another 20% starting material to get 120mg = + 24mg. So, you need 144mg 80% MDMA to get the same effect as 120mg 100% MDMA.
Simple :)
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Quite right, unless there are active impurities.



In conclusion, yes, the maximum amount of MDMA in MDMA.HCl powder is 84%, but I believe most doses are quoted in terms of this anyway, so carry on as before.
 
Ismene said:
Would it really work like that tho? I mean, if you spent money setting up a MDMA lab and went to the trouble of importing all the precursors from Cambodia I think you're gonna expect MDMA. If the chemist comes up to you and says "Er...it's something a bit like MDMA but there's a load of impurity in it" I think they'd just get another chemist. You don't spend money setting something up and risking your liberty only to hire a chemist who can't make MDMA to save his life.

I mean - ask yourself what's the first thing you'd do when you got a new chemist in and you'd just blown your lifes savings on a lab. You'd say "Make me the smallest batch of ecstasy you can first mate". Then you'd try it and see whether it was any good.
Any impurities are going to be added lower down the food chain by guys with bags of lactose.
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Ok, so when people are talking re: direct from the chemist, who has his adequate precursors and lab apparatus, and a tremendous amount of meticulousness and persistence - try as the genius may, he cannot violate the second law of thermodynamics! But he gets damn close to 100% as close as said laws allow him. That is as well may be, 100% purity, which as Ismene politely said, can be affected by cuts further down the distribution line.Which was point in the first place, purity in most laymens terms, does not relate to the ratio of molecular masses between the freebase active molecule and the HCl form, surely? To most people, it's the ratio of the active product, be it drug-x freebase or drug-x HCl to non-drug x, "the unknown"

Although the potency of drug-x may be affected by which salt it is present as, be it citrate, tartrate etc, due to the discrepancy in Mwts of those salt components.
 
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Sorry, that was a touch to aggressive for my normal passive standards, sorry guys.

Transform is spot on, 100mg of MDMA HCl, will contain 84mg of MDMA due to the Mwt of the HCl component. But most people would say that if they had a crystal of product that was 100mg MDMA HCl, that made up a 100mg crystal with no unreacted byproducts, cuts, whatever can affect purity, it would be deemed, "100%" pure, surely?
 
mrcientist said:
Which was point in the first place, purity in most laymens terms, does not relate to the ratio of molecular masses between the freebase active molecule and the HCl form, surely? To most people, it's the ratio of the active product, be it drug-x freebase or drug-x HCl to any impurities that are not drug-x, Citrate, HCl, tartrate or whatever.
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Exactly what I told my mother. Verbatim.
 
Any response to my embarrassing correction? Is she getting that repeat verbatim also? I do hope so, or I shall feel like a bit of a big soft arse...
 
Transform said:
Yield is quoted in moles, not grams. If you put in one mole of precursor and get out one mole of MDMA, you have 100% yield. Doesn't matter if you used 100g or precursor and got out 110g of MDMA (not only possible, but common).
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You can quote yield in any unit you like, as long as you are consistent. If I started to use moles in an EADD thread on MDMA it would do more harm than good :)
 
Yes, I suppose you can, but I'd be surprised if the producing lab quoted yield in g, and therefore that shouldn't be a source of confusion as you said.

mrcientist: in theory, yes but when using gc/ms to test a sample it tells them exactly what percentage the MDMA molecules are, and they give out that value, hence why the purity is "capped" at 84%.
 
Thanks guys,
it's a (bit) clearer now!

From always having taken pills where effectively you take either a whole or a half (or a crappy crumbly bit left in a bag), I've got a nice solid rock (which looks like smaller crystals stuck together) which I'll have to break up to measure out.

It was the measuring out bit that was getting me - do I weigh 150mg or 190mg to account for the 80% bit.

One may not do much for me, the other one may blow my head off =D....
 
Weigh it as is, since most doses are usually quoted as the HCl salt.

Then, dissolve it in water and split that into the correct fraction to get the dose you want :)
 
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SamhainGrim said:
Fifteen posts before Ismene gets involved in a purity argument? Fifteen?

This forum has truly gone to shit.
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It took me that long to work out what the fuck they were talking about :D

Wouldn't MDMA freebase just get converted to MDMA.HCL the second it hit your stomach anyway?
 
Salts are selected for pharmaceutical purposes as they can rapidly be absorbed into the system. Some other things to consider are:

  • pH-solubility profiles
  • Prediction of salt solubility
  • Solubility product
  • Solubility/dissolution rate of salts
  • Dissolution of salts in the GI fluids
  • Effect of salts on chemical stability of parent compound.
  • Toxicity

There is always method to the madness.
 
There's stats and stuff that have been posted on this forum showing police seizures show MDMA crystal isn't often over 90% purity, and often is less.

Why is that hard to accept? It's just the way it is. It's an illegal drug being made from controlled ingredients by criminal chemists for as much money as they can get, maximum yield, maximum profit, maximum "good enough for people to keep buying more". Simples.
 
mattnotrik said:
Im no chemist but I guess that it can only be 84% maximum because it is a solid, if it were to be 100% it would not be in solid form or so ive been told. What pothole said is pretty much bang on. It is 100% pure so to speak as in no additives or impurities but 100mg of crystal is not really 100mg of MDMA.
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I heard once about mdma aquired at liquid stage...
 
mrcientist said:
Sorry, that was a touch to aggressive for my normal passive standards, sorry guys.
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Whatcha talking about you big cunty shit bag? :D I didn't see any "aggressiveness" to your post mate :)

By the by the by - Is it irie to close this now as it's been answered, or are you still having hot sexy time discussing things?
Either way's cool ;)

Infact, it's completely unrelated except that it's a question involving the ingestion of MDMA:
When I take Amphetamine I get terrible confusion (dubbed "Speed Confuzzlement" since my first time taking any), to the point in which I will walk out of a room with a purpose, pass through the door-frame and forget where I was going and why, then walk back into the original room only to do the same again. This could go on for literally a whole fucking 5 minutes (!) if I weren't to sit down on the floor laughing and, essentially giving up on the fruitless task of zibabyjeebus-knows-what I was planning....

Earlier this month I went to a mate's B.Day bash that I was supposed to be doing a set at and was "paid" in a huge capsule of ~250mg of MDMA.
As time went on, the MDMA kicking in and the reality of a free bar dawning on me, I couldn't even get my laptop out of my bag which lead to me trying to find all my personals (wallet, housekeys, mobile, sanity etc.) and being rather terrible at it - Nevermind set my lappy up and play the set 8(

It was extremely reminiscent of Speed Confuzzlement though the MD was lovely and clean as can be expected.
The only other substance, Amphet. aside, I've experienced such confuzzlement with was 2C-B but I was too blissed out to care lol.

Sooooo, to the actual question: Has anyone else found themselves so confuzzled that you find you're travelling in completely useless circles from large doses?

[/ramble]
 
Riklet said:
There's stats and stuff that have been posted on this forum showing police seizures show MDMA crystal isn't often over 90% purity, and often is less.

Why is that hard to accept? It's just the way it is. It's an illegal drug being made from controlled ingredients by criminal chemists for as much money as they can get, maximum yield, maximum profit, maximum "good enough for people to keep buying more". Simples.
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Do you trust police figures?

I dunno, I understand that you'll get people who can't make Ecstasy making pips etc but I wonder if once you'd spent god knows how much setting up a lab and getting the ingredients in from the forests of cambodia you'd be happy if the chemist turned to you and said "Well, I think it's something like E mate". Wouldn't you look round for a decent chemist before you travelled to cambodia?
 
Monsta, I've had the confusion on MDMA. Only at high doses like you say, not properly confused like you can get on say MXE (which for me is confusion at a whole new level) but like so far off my trumphet that I'm just mumbling, chattering, spangled mess. MDA is even worse for it cos instead of mumbling to yourself, or mates who are not understanding you, your talking to doors or people who aren't who you think they are, lol.

Phet only tends to baffle me on the comedown when my brain has just had enough of working at ten speed and you go a bit slow and dopey. The main reason I don't do the stuff anymore tbh.
 
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