maybe its not a hallucination

[Kul69]

a poison is something that hurts you
many drugs don't hurt you

What drug taken in a larger quantity than "recreational" doesn't hurt you? Mentally or physically?

We take enough of a drug to get the positive effects and usually push it to the limits of being very harmful.

Take mushrooms for example, we eat just enough of the poison that it makes us hallucinate and all that but not so much that we spend 10 hour throwing up everywhere and thinking the world is ending.

I'd say the later is pretty harmful and causes the desired effect which is, "don't fucking eat me.. bitch".

Kind of like the frogs that produce a hallucinogen... some humans use that to get high, doesn't mean it's not still a poison taken in higher doses.

The effect that you get when you do ANY drug is your body reacting negatively to it, and I'm sorry but if you ingest or otherwise take anything, and it causes you to have such a strong reaction, you just poisoned yourself.

Do you really believe that when you snort a line of coke you're not harming yourself at all?

Sure, we all do it and say the hell with a little degredation of our physical selves, but it doesn't mean it's not hurting you a little bit.

The reason you feel like shit after you do pretty much any drug isn't because your body is like, "Aww.. the party is over..", it's cause you just put yourself through a lot with the poison you took, and your body in most cases feels like shit DURING the experience but is reacting with the drug in such a way that your brain enjoys it.

When you take Ecstacy, your body pumps you full of serotonin, you feel great, but does it mean your body isn't being put into overdrive dealing with all these chemicals? Same for all drugs.. don't even get me started on meth.

It's just another way we're different from other animals, we figured out if you don't eat the mushroom or the frog like it's a meal, you can have a lot of fun with the stuff it produces.

 

[Red Earth]

sorry Kul, your argument is totaly invalid.

I just looked through the dictionary. here's what I came up with.

Drug 1. A substance used in the diagnosis, treatment, or prevention of a disease or as a component of a medication.
2. Such a substance as recognized or defined by the U.S. Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act.
2. A chemical substance, such as a narcotic or hallucinogen, that affects the central nervous system, causing changes in behavior and often addiction.
3. Obsolete. A chemical or dye.

Poison 1. A substance that causes injury, illness, or death, especially by chemical means.
2. Something destructive or fatal.
3. Chemistry & Physics. A substance that inhibits another substance or a reaction: a catalyst poison.

Looking at the Australian government web site, It said nothing about drugs being poison. I found them to be in different sections.

Sugar is a Drug. Do you say you poison yourself every time you eat chocolate or have a cup of tea ?

If Drugs are a poison to you, then it just shows how much respect you have for them. Please don't confuse the fuck out of other people.

Love & Light

 

[L2R]

Through my countless very good and very bad experiences on LSD, I've concluded that the drug simply enhances and even exaggerates your psyche.
Everything experienced during a trip is always there. It's just impractical to be constantly consiously aware of such subtlties in every day life, lest you are mad.
Although while increasing perception, the chemical and it's effects in your body, can also interfere with your perception with their mere presence. Ever experienced thought spirals when tripping hard?

To borrow from an overused cliche: drugs can show you that doors (of perception/spirit/etc) are there, but relying on drugs may lock them shut.

 

[Kul69]

Whoa, you found a dictionary discription of drug and poison.. great.. uh.. go eat a handful of iboga and let me know what situation you find yourself in.

A chemical substance, such as a narcotic or hallucinogen, that affects the central nervous system, causing changes in behavior and often addiction.

You can get bufotenine from a toad and extract 5-MeO-DMT from it, smoke it and get high like never before.

1. A substance that causes injury, illness, or death, especially by chemical means.

You can die from ingesting too much caffeine.

Does this mean that caffeine is a poison and bufotenine is a drug?

Were talking about QUANTITY here and that is all, quantity as in how much it takes you to experience ill effects and quantity as in how much you actually take. Just because you choose one or the other doesn't mean that it can't fall into both categories.

Pure nicotine can be VERY lethal to someone but millions of people ingest it many times a day, does that mean it's not a poison anymore just because someone chooses not to take a lethal dose?

Please don't confuse the fuck out of other people.

Oh yeah, I'm sure someone read my post and went out to the store to get high on some rat poison or is afraid to drink coffee now cause it might kill them.

I'm just pointing out that recreational drugs can easily be a poison as well, and the reaction they cause is in effect poisoning your system.

Since you like to pull out definitions from dictionaries so much like they're some kind of holy book that contains the secret incantations of word that forbid using these holy words in another context, here is another one for you:

Poisoning:

Used with drugs, chemicals, and industrial materials for human or animal poisoning, acute or chronic, whether the poisoning is accidental, occupational, suicidal, by medication error, or by environmental exposure.

If I gave someone cocaine all night until they died, wouldn't you say I poisoned them? ..or would you say that they were given an "accidental medication error in the form of an overdose of drugs"? Doesn't matter because in the end it amounts to the same thing and reaffirms what I said before, recreational drugs are a poison, even if you don't take enough to have an adverse effect the possibility for poisoning still exists.

I bet if you took a non-lethal dose of cyanide you'd feel some pretty intense physical reactions without dying, but I don't think many people abuse it because it doesn't produce an enjoyable experience at any level of dosage. Just because something is "fun" doesn't mean you aren't hurting yourself with it.

Also, I knew someone would say something about chocolate or sugar or caffeine, thanks for filling that roll.

I'm waiting to see if someone mentions the other thing I'm waiting for.. we'll see..

Sorry, drugs aren't good for you physically, no matter what, I think YOU should stop trying to confuse the fuck out of people.

 

[Kul69]

Anyway, to the original poster, if you really want to experience god then get there by meditating or through other methods that are obtained completly on your own through focus and dedication to exploring your mind without the assistance of foreign chemicals.

I've talked to a VERY practiced Siddha Yoga person who has had various spiritual experiences, and what he had to tell me was FAR more interesting and beautiful than someone telling me about when they spilled a vial of acid on their hand or whatever and saw god.

 

[Invalid Usename]

What drug taken in a larger quantity than "recreational" doesn't hurt you? Mentally or physically?

Kul, there is no substance that exists which does not have an LD50. Take a large enough quantity of ANYTHING and it WILL KILL YOU.

There is no "sacred" compound or element. They will all do you in under the right circumstances and quantity.

This whole "drugs are evil/poison" is your own personal issue, and is a value judgement. It's not science.

 

[Invalid Usename]

I agree with you completely Kul
Same with alcohol and everything.
Lets discuss meth... because I hate that drug and everyone I know does it.

Let's see, these people use that drug and you hate the drug because these people use it.

Errr... People have freedom of choice regardless if their personal choices happen to bother you. Rather than blaming the drug or the people, perhaps you should find friends who do not do the drug. Take a little initiative and change your own situation rather than wishing that others to change their's.

If more people did that, we wouldn't have yet another new generation of "drug nazis" going around telling others what they can and can not do. Huh?

 

[Kul69]

This whole "drugs are evil/poison" is your own personal issue, and is a value judgement. It's not science.

I don't think they're evil, the original point I was trying to make is that the reaction you have to a drug isn't that you're seeing god, it's your brain reacting to a chemical.. a "poison". I just had to respond to someone who had to take that out of context and use a definition of poison to try to prove me wrong and someone else who said many recreational drugs aren't harmful.

Any recreational drug isn't intended to be consumed as part of a healthy diet and they're hard on the body, this is a fact it's not something that is a personal opinion of mine.

Does anyone actually believe there is a recreational drug out there that doesn't cause stress to your body or is completely neutral in it's physical effects on the body?

Anyway, like I said.. I don't think drugs are evil, I was talking to someone about this same issue while on a very intense mushroom trip in the woods, that we basically poison our bodies and enjoy the reaction our bodies have to it. Mushrooms have the chemicals they do as a defense mechanism against being eaten, it is only humans that eat just enough of it to get high and have a good time because it IS a poison in the end.

 

[Red Earth]

Hmmm.. when i first got into psychedelics, I wasn't a very deep, or spiritual person. I knew there must have been something, but all that mainly came to me from listening to a band called Tool, which I am sure a lot of you will be familiar with. Their music is art, and listening to a few songs will let you know very quickly that there's more to reality than what we're originally lead to believe.

So this band led me into psychedelics. I tried mescaline, and bingo... everything i ever thought, but could never express, because i was told it ain't real, exists, and it's always right here. This was not enough to really turn me into a guru of any sort, or even get me to meditate. A year or so down the track, I hit a totaly new level of awareness, and things got deeper. After a while, yoga and various spiritual practice merged automatically. These days I do various spiritual practice, including the Eightfold path of Patanjali yoga. If you know anything about this, you'd know that the highest level of this practice, furthest point, is called Samadhi, also known as God Union. Total surrender of ego for the universal consciousness. Before I started doing yoga, I knew nothing about the theory of it. Then one day I was browsing through random material passed onto me by someone who was just getting into it, and it had a bunch of stuff on yoga. It didn't take long to realise that the effects produced by this practice were the same as the effects produced by some of my profound psychedelic experiences. So, I gave it a go. A proper one too. It wasn't that half assed " I might do yoga, or I might watch TV", attitude. I really got into it. Going down the park every morning and sitting there until sunset for months, combining various spiritual practices with yoga, and realising the inter-connectedness of everything. It didn't take long to realise that what happens after ego death during the psychedelic experience, when you merge with all there is, was exactly what was described by the state of samadhi. I can honestly, and truthfully say to you, that you can talk to god/see god/ realise that you're god through psychedelics.

But intergrading this state into your every day life, that's where you have to do some work

Love & Light

 

[Red Earth]

Whoa, you found a dictionary discription of drug and poison.. great.. uh.. go eat a handful of iboga and let me know what situation you find yourself in.



You can get bufotenine from a toad and extract 5-MeO-DMT from it, smoke it and get high like never before.



You can die from ingesting too much caffeine.

Does this mean that caffeine is a poison and bufotenine is a drug?

Were talking about QUANTITY here and that is all, quantity as in how much it takes you to experience ill effects and quantity as in how much you actually take. Just because you choose one or the other doesn't mean that it can't fall into both categories.

Pure nicotine can be VERY lethal to someone but millions of people ingest it many times a day, does that mean it's not a poison anymore just because someone chooses not to take a lethal dose?



Oh yeah, I'm sure someone read my post and went out to the store to get high on some rat poison or is afraid to drink coffee now cause it might kill them.

I'm just pointing out that recreational drugs can easily be a poison as well, and the reaction they cause is in effect poisoning your system.

Since you like to pull out definitions from dictionaries so much like they're some kind of holy book that contains the secret incantations of word that forbid using these holy words in another context, here is another one for you:



If I gave someone cocaine all night until they died, wouldn't you say I poisoned them? ..or would you say that they were given an "accidental medication error in the form of an overdose of drugs"? Doesn't matter because in the end it amounts to the same thing and reaffirms what I said before, recreational drugs are a poison, even if you don't take enough to have an adverse effect the possibility for poisoning still exists.

I bet if you took a non-lethal dose of cyanide you'd feel some pretty intense physical reactions without dying, but I don't think many people abuse it because it doesn't produce an enjoyable experience at any level of dosage. Just because something is "fun" doesn't mean you aren't hurting yourself with it.

Also, I knew someone would say something about chocolate or sugar or caffeine, thanks for filling that roll.

I'm waiting to see if someone mentions the other thing I'm waiting for.. we'll see..

Sorry, drugs aren't good for you physically, no matter what, I think YOU should stop trying to confuse the fuck out of people.

You can die from overeating. that's quantity. Does that make food a poison? It seems, like according to you everything is poison.

What about Iboga ? I hear it's totaly fucken euphoric as, and the experience is so profound, that it gets people off heroin. I just read somewhere recently that they have clinics especialy designed for this, but you have to pay heaps of cash to undergo such treatment.

Fair enuff, based on your personal experience, you consider drugs a poison. But don't try push your beliefs on others. It's just YOUR personal interpretation.

 

[Kul69]

You can't die from the chemicals in food, you die form having too much physical "stuff" in you. I referenced things you can die from chemically not just cause you exploded your stomach with it.

 

[qwe]

Take mushrooms for example, we eat just enough of the poison that it makes us hallucinate and all that but not so much that we spend 10 hour throwing up everywhere and thinking the world is ending.

I'd say the later is pretty harmful and causes the desired effect which is, "don't fucking eat me.. bitch".

I think it would make more sense to say that if you want a huge trip, go into it with the right mindset (so you don't "think the world is ending") and don't eat so much that you get nauseaus. You made a little irrational leap there when you said that, just because you take a huge amount of something and it bothers you, that means you cant take a small amount. you must be on a drug much less insightful than mushrooms....

The effect that you get when you do ANY drug is your body reacting negatively to it

It's not necesarily a "reaction." Your body uses endogenous drugs all the time, your body works mechanically. Chemicals that you can ingest that change the way your body works temporarily are called drugs, and the changes can be beneficial, negative, neutral, or combinations in different areas

and it causes you to have such a strong reaction, you just poisoned yourself.

So if you have a religious experience, that means you've gotten injured? What definition of poison are you using!?

Sure, we all do it and say the hell with a little degredation of our physical selves, but it doesn't mean it's not hurting you a little bit.

Depends on the drug. With weed, oral use or vaporisers will eliminate physical harm. With psychedelics, physical harm usually shouldnt be a worry. this is one of the most common flaws when thinking abuot drugs. ie: meth is an illegal drug. meth is bad for the body and brain. [insert drug here] is an illegal drug thus it is bad for the body and brain. its just silly how people still think pot kills brain cells etc

The reason you feel like shit after you do pretty much any drug isn't because your body is like, "Aww.. the party is over..", it's cause you just put yourself through a lot with the poison you took, and your body in most cases feels like shit DURING the experience but is reacting with the drug in such a way that your brain enjoys it.

Most people don't seem to get comedowns from "almost any drug," stimulants often do cause them but stimulants are known to be harmful to health

When you take Ecstacy, your body pumps you full of serotonin, you feel great, but does it mean your body isn't being put into overdrive dealing with all these chemicals? Same for all drugs.. don't even get me started on meth.

The overdrive is more due to its stimulant properties (norepinephrine, dopamine)... same with meth. what's your point? So meth and ecstasy can harm your body. That means any drug that increases the activity between neurons "puts you in overdrive"? no--many drugs are actually GOOD for the body when they eliminate any stress and stress's effects on the body (ie, some depressants)

 

[qwe]

back on topic
going with my previous explanation, drugs alter the mechanics of your body

how does this allow you to have a spiritual experience? because a spiritual experience depends on the mechanics of the body(brain) to act in a certain way, whether with exogenous chemicals or endogenous chemicals, a spiritual experience (or ANY experience) is essentially a chemical-information experience, simply due to the way the brain works

even if its not as physical as this, if its mostly psychological--changing the physiology of the brain will still produce profuond changes in teh psychology, so it is still possible

when you say "drugs cant let you see god" you are assuming this communication using drugs would be vastly different than communication with him when sober, which isnt true--some drugs can influence your mind inw ays that allows the mind to "open up"

 

[Kul69]

I think it would make more sense to say that if you want a huge trip, go into it with the right mindset (so you don't "think the world is ending") and don't eat so much that you get nauseaus. You made a little irrational leap there when you said that, just because you take a huge amount of something and it bothers you, that means you cant take a small amount. you must be on a drug much less insightful than mushrooms....

I didn't say that at all, I said that we CAN take a small amount and that is why you guys are sitting here saying, "omg it's not poison" cause we don't take the levels that would be overly toxic to us but that doesn't mean it's not still a poison, and just because you decided not to take an amount that was a bad experience doesn't mean you didn't ingest a small amount of poison...

You missed the entire point I made which is that we use stuff that is intended to harm us to have a good time, and that doesn't mean it's not still harmful just because you enjoyed it.

Let me give you an example..

If someone were to cut their arm off it would obviously be a serious injury and they wouldn't enjoy it at all. However, if someone were to make a small cut on their arm to enjoy the endorphins their brain releases from it, it wouldn't be a serious injury BUT IT IS STILL AN INJURY and they would enjoy it.

Now, does that mean that the knife isn't still a weapon intended to cause injury and that the wielder decided a certain amount of injury would be enjoyable? No, it is still a weapon capable of killing someone.

The reason you are hallucinating in my opinion is because of your bodies reaction to the chemical you ingested, and that reaction is obviously not a normal feeling, your body isn't intended to exist in the state you're putting it in and I doubt you can experience "god" by altering your brain chemistry. You're literally just shocking your system.

I'm sorry that people are incapable of admitting to themselves that they purposfully ingest toxic things to alter the way their body is supposed to function and that doing that is harmful, very obviously in fact. You can at least admit you're not taking "God Vision" or some other stupid name like that where you try to dress it up and make it sound all mystical, there is nothing special about it, it's just cold hard reality and that is the point that I'm making.

Anything you can get out of an experience with drugs is nothing more than your mind reflecting on experiences and images created by your mind, it's the same as people who think dreams hold special meaning. Sure, I don't KNOW for a fact that I'm right but it all sounds a little bit like witchcraft and voodoo to me, just get over it and have fun with the pretty pictures =P

 

[qwe]

"You missed the entire point I made which is that we use stuff that is intended to harm us to have a good time, and that doesn't mean it's not still harmful just because you enjoyed it."

oh i saw that point. and it's ridiculous, i explained why in my paragraph about how drugs don't give a "negative reaction" they simply change our bodys mechanics

how do mushrooms harm us? we arent harmed if we don't take so much that the substance harms us. anything can "harm" us in excess, your seperation of drugs from everything else in this respect is irrational

 

[Kul69]

Cause the reaction they cause is our body being unable to deal with and break them down normally.

 

[qwe]

"Cause the reaction they cause is our body being unable to deal with and break them down normally"

whaaat????? just because our bodies metabolize complex chemicals, and do so at a rate sufficient to allow us to be altered by teh chemicals for a period of time (whether the chemical is endogenous or exogenous) doesnt make it "bad" LMAO

break them down normally? someone who wouldnt be able to "break them down normally" would be the exception not the norm anyway. you are seriously ignorant on the biology of drugs, and some logical reasoning skills too it seems (e.g. using meth as an example when claiming that "drugs" (drugs in general, all drugs) are neurotoxic or toxic or "poison")

 

[Red Earth]

how do mushrooms harm us? we arent harmed if we don't take so much that the substance harms us. anything can "harm" us in excess, your seperation of drugs from everything else in this respect is irrational

Good Point. That's what I was getting at, but he missed it entirely.