Maybe 5HTP isn't the best idea?

[avcpl]

On another board this has been discussed, but here I see 5HTP recommended constantly without another thought. This is all speculation, but I think it makes enough sense to at least give it some consideration.

The body tries to maintain a state of homeostasis and it accomplishes this similar to the way a thermostat does, by monitoring levels and adjusting accordingly to that feedback.

When MDMA is consumed some of the resulting effect are that serotonin receptors down-regulate and tryptophan hydroxylase is inhibited.

Tryptophan hydroxylase is the enzyme that converts tryptophan (from your diet) into serotonin. This is why 5HTP works after MDMA, it doesn't need this enzyme to convert to serotonin, it uses a different one.

So since the receptors have down-regulated and tryptophan hydroxylase is inhibited, what feedback is being sent if more serotonin continues to be produced by way of 5HTP?

Ever get the "Tuesday blues", feeling a bit down after using MDMA on the weekend? Well, perhaps this is part of "paying the piper" and this is a natural state to send the body feedback that "ALL IS CLEAR! THE ATTACK IS OVER! UP-REGULATE THOSE RECEPTORS! START PRODUCING TRYPTOPHAN HYDROXYLASE!"

Sure 5HTP makes you feel better, but is it at a cost? What if the enzymes and receptors recover, but not quite to the 100% level and then you do MDMA again and continue to repeat the cycle?

Like I said, I don't know if this is the case, but I wanted to share for the sake of discussion because 5HTP is recommended so often.

The serotonin system takes a long time to recover naturally. That is why the Shulgins recommended MDMA no more than 4 times a year. But natural (time, exercise, healthy diet) just may be the best way, without the shortcuts….

 

[epic11]

Ive been wondering the same. I always take 5-htp the next day, but am i really doing any good?

 

[Hapomen22]

I also always take 100mg of 5htp the next day, sometimes the day after too but I never abuse it so I don't think it really interferes with the natural conversion of tryptophan (from your diet) into serotonin, 5HTP will only help you feel less down, one cap of 5HTP won't boost your serotonin levels back to a normal rate by itself, that's a long term recovery that takes a few weeks. Just eat healthy, get some fresh air/sunlight and exercise, that's what will really make a difference in your serotonin levels recovery time, not those 5HTP caps by themselves! I do see your point though and it's an interesting question.

 

[Dmytry]

5-htp is good, your body will still up-regulate the receptors with or without the 5-htp, but it prevents things like depression and brain zaps from not having any serotonin left in your brain. why put your brain under additional stress from lack of neurotransmitters if you dont have to?

 

[JWills20]

I tend to agree and disagree. I believe 5HTP is a great means to reducing the depression right after MDMA use but is not to be taken consistently. In my opinion, a few days of 5HTP post MDMA consumption is not damaging at all, especially when serotonin concentration is particularly low. Some studies have found 5HTP effective as an anti-depressant in depressed individuals. However, prolonged use may cause adverse affects, whether this is down to a homeostatic down-regulation response - I don't know. It is labelled as a food/nutritional supplement suggesting that it is in some effect 'natural', although it also suggests that it should not replace dietary needs.

Another theory I heard about consistent 5HTP use is that it can negatively affect dopamine, i'm not entirely sure why or how but its mentioned in the 'Supplements Megathread.'

 

[steingalkrs]

Interesting thread indeed, however as with all supplements and all drugs in general the problem is running out... I believe eating this supplement is as good as it gets, though I havnt gotten it yet. Just like if you are training you need more energy and eat more, add some proteins for good meassure. After doing serotonine heavy activities giving your body what it needs has to be the best thing possible to do - and if it messes with something at all the problem would only be running out of 5-HTP in the long run. The stuff can be prescribed by your doctor aswell.

As with tyrosin, this should not be eaten wothout consideration and not together with SSRI compunds as this may give unwanted experiences. Dont overdo, but I am no professor in catabolism and brain functions so only my personal gut feeling here. Hope its worth something, :D

 

[avcpl]

Glad to see some conversation on this! I think there will be some strong opinions both ways.

5-htp is good, your body will still up-regulate the receptors with or without the 5-htp, but it prevents things like depression and brain zaps from not having any serotonin left in your brain. why put your brain under additional stress from lack of neurotransmitters if you dont have to?

Will they still up-regulate at the same rate in the presence of more serotonin? And if that up-regulation rate is indeed slowed, will it be to 100% by the time of your next roll? And just how exactly can you be sure?

 

[Dmytry]

Will they still up-regulate at the same rate in the presence of more serotonin? And if that up-regulation rate is indeed slowed, will it be to 100% by the time of your next roll? And just how exactly can you be sure?

mdma stays in your system for a few days, during this time your receptors continue to down regulate while your body lacks the means to make more serotonin because of the toxic metabolites of mdma. this is the cause of the mid-week depression. the rate of up-regulation is about the same in my experience, but i have not had any brain scans to confirm this. i notice that with or without the 5-htp, i return to normal around one week after rolling. also, remember that a lot of the 5-htp doesnt make it into your brain before being metabolized to serotonin unless taken with carbidopa, and serotonin cannot cross the blood brain barrier, so it doesnt take much to help your brain.

if we can extrapolate regulation rates based on looking at psychedelic drugs, down-regulation happens almost immediately, in the order of hours, whereas up-regulation takes a few days before you can trip the same again. it will be 100% (unless you rolled so hard you gave yourself brain damage) with the proper amount of time between rolls, and taking care of yourself like darksidesam is always talking about. proper foods before and after a roll can increase the strength of the roll and prevent much of the comedown, so why not throw 5-htp into the mix?

 

[Achten]

Here in Belgium one can't buy 5HTP without prescription, but reading all this..

I always adhere by the Shulgin Standard of 4x/year, and only 1redose. Have never felt fried the next day, but I am interested in HR.

I'm definetly not an expert, but in the light of what 5HTP does... is it possible to "upregulate" with Alpha-O (5meo-aMT, nicknamed Alpha-O-Dimethyl-Serotonin - ie a synthetic tryptamine which was actually made as a serotonin replacer which can cross the BBB) ?

 

[Dmytry]

I'm definetly not an expert, but in the light of what 5HTP does... is it possible to "upregulate" with Alpha-O (5meo-aMT, nicknamed Alpha-O-Dimethyl-Serotonin - ie a synthetic tryptamine which was actually made as a serotonin replacer which can cross the BBB) ?

5-MeO-aMT will also cause down-regulation. if you want to up-regulate you need time or a 5-ht antagonist, but all the antagonists i know of are selective for 5-ht2c or so unselective that they also antagonize dopamine receptors

edit for clarification: 5-htp does not cause up-regulation, 5-htp only replaces the serotonin that was drained during a roll. useful for avoiding brain zaps and mid-week depression

 

[avcpl]

edit for clarification: 5-htp does not cause up-regulation, 5-htp only replaces the serotonin that was drained during a roll. useful for avoiding brain zaps and mid-week depression

If you are experiencing "brain zaps" or significant depression following MDMA use, isn't that a powerful message being sent about either your usage or your body's reaction to MDMA?

Following a moderate dose, with no redosing, I have only felt at the most a little "down" mid-week, which I consider a natural reaction to the intense, unnatural "high" I experienced a few days prior.

It just seems that the strongest advocates for 5HTP use are those that are either having intensely negative reactions to MDMA or those that need to recover quickly so that they can roll again. But replenishing serotonin is just one aspect of the SERT (and 5HTP is not found naturally in food in any significant amount like tryptophan is) and perhaps continued serotonin replenishment by way of 5HTP may in fact lead to diminished returns in the long run, being at the expense of something else. (and I'm talking extended, repeated use here)

the rate of up-regulation is about the same in my experience, but i have not had any brain scans to confirm this. i notice that with or without the 5-htp, i return to normal around one week after rolling. also, remember that a lot of the 5-htp doesnt make it into your brain before being metabolized to serotonin unless taken with carbidopa, and serotonin cannot cross the blood brain barrier, so it doesnt take much to help your brain.

Just feeling ok does not mean that receptors have up-regulated 100%.

As far as 5HTP and the blood brain barrier, on the wikipedia entry: "However, several studies have reported that 5-HTP is effective even without a peripheral decarboxylase inhibitor (e.g. carbidopa)."

 

[Dmytry]

If you are experiencing "brain zaps" or significant depression following MDMA use, isn't that a powerful message being sent about either your usage or your body's reaction to MDMA?

the only time i ever experienced a brain zap was with 500mg methylone and 50mg 5-MeO-DALT over about 4 hours, it woke me up, i took 5-htp, i never had another brain zap. usually i dont get depressed, just highly unmotivated.

It just seems that the strongest advocates for 5HTP use are those that are either having intensely negative reactions to MDMA or those that need to recover quickly so that they can roll again. But replenishing serotonin is just one aspect of the SERT (and 5HTP is not found naturally in food in any significant amount like tryptophan is) and perhaps continued serotonin replenishment by way of 5HTP may in fact lead to diminished returns in the long run, being at the expense of something else. (and I'm talking extended, repeated use here)

some people have negative reactions to regular mdma use, some people dont. you would have much bigger problems resulting from extended mdma use than 5-htp could ever cause. in some countries 5-htp is a prescription medication for depression. people take it every day safely, and with minimal side effects and almost no withdrawal. if youre worried about messing up your serotonin system with too much 5-htp, maybe you should look more closely at how much mdma you take.

the idea behind 5-htp is to return your neurotransmitters to normal levels as fast as possible, not to have them shoot up only to have them drop off to nothing

 

[avcpl]

the only time i ever experienced a brain zap was with 500mg methylone and 50mg 5-MeO-DALT over about 4 hours, it woke me up, i took 5-htp, i never had another brain zap. usually i dont get depressed, just highly unmotivated.



some people have negative reactions to regular mdma use, some people dont. you would have much bigger problems resulting from extended mdma use than 5-htp could ever cause. in some countries 5-htp is a prescription medication for depression. people take it every day safely, and with minimal side effects and almost no withdrawal. if youre worried about messing up your serotonin system with too much 5-htp, maybe you should look more closely at how much mdma you take.

the idea behind 5-htp is to return your neurotransmitters to normal levels as fast as possible, not to have them shoot up only to have them drop off to nothing

I think you continue to misunderstand my point. I'm not worried at all about taking too much 5HTP because I don't take it at all and I never indicated that I think it causes neurotransmitter levels to shoot up.

Your point that it is a prescription drug in many countries is a good one and perhaps should be further considered before being haphazardly recommended to everyone to take it following MDMA use as some kind of "cure" (not you, but that is the impression from several posters). Especially if it gives a false sense of security to frequent MDMA users who use it as a justification to use more frequently than a maximum of 4 times a year.

 

[Dmytry]

I think you continue to misunderstand my point. I'm not worried at all about taking too much 5HTP because I don't take it at all and I never indicated that I think it causes neurotransmitter levels to shoot up.

Your point that it is a prescription drug in many countries is a good one and perhaps should be further considered before being haphazardly recommended to everyone to take it following MDMA use as some kind of "cure" (not you, but that is the impression from several posters). Especially if it gives a false sense of security to frequent MDMA users who use it as a justification to use more frequently than a maximum of 4 times a year.

my main point is that 5-htp should not be depended on to prevent mdma-related mental issues, only that it is good for your brain to take after a roll. much like some people take a prozac a couple of hours into a roll to prevent any neurotoxicity, 5-htp can be taken to help prevent the mid-week depression. only time (and maybe the right antagonist) can up-regulate serotonin receptors. ive heard some good things about st. johns wort

 

[Renz Envy]

my main point is that 5-htp should not be depended on to prevent mdma-related mental issues, only that it is good for your brain to take after a roll. much like some people take a prozac a couple of hours into a roll to prevent any neurotoxicity, 5-htp can be taken to help prevent the mid-week depression. only time (and maybe the right antagonist) can up-regulate serotonin receptors. ive heard some good things about st. johns wort

Honestly using any SSRI would slow the healing process as far as I am concerned. It would be best to exercise, eat, sleep and treat your body well as a means of recovery. If the come down is bad enough that you cannot handle it, then you are using the drug too often.

 

[Genetic Freak]

Honestly using any SSRI would slow the healing process as far as I am concerned. It would be best to exercise, eat, sleep and treat your body well as a means of recovery. If the come down is bad enough that you cannot handle it, then you are using the drug too often.

I had read taking 5-HTP 3-4 hours after MDMA could address the effects of neurotoxicity.... And could be used specifically for that purpose.... Rather than taking the day after or several days after as for what has previously being discussed, thus occurring problems of down-regulation/receptor downgrade....

 

[Renz Envy]

Unless I'm mistaken, 5-HTP isn't an SSRI

 

[THC2LSD]

I've tried 5-HTP and it didn't seem to do anything besides give me a stomach ache and diarrhea. It seems a lot of it is converted to serotonin outside the brain.

Some have speculated that it might cause pulmonary hypertension since fenfluramine and aminorex may cause this from increasing serotonin in the blood beyond what's normal, causing a reaction that leads to PH later. But I don't think this has ever been reported with 5-HTP.

Carbidopa prevents the conversion to serotonin outside the brain, probably would make it safer and more effect. Unfortunately it's prescription only.

I'd like to try plain old tryptophan, seems safer. See if it works even with that enzyme being blocked. Too bad that impurity fucked some people up and caused the US to ban it. A similar impurity has been found in some brands of 5-HTP, don't think it's caused problems AFAIK.

 

[F1n1shed]

Imo 5htp makes me feel real weird and spacey when using it recovering from mdma. Don't even bother with it as far as im concerned, vitamin B complex how ever does WONDERS. That with tryptophan, healthy foods rich in serotonin and fish oil. Exercise to and you should be recovered fairly fast, leave 5htp out.

 

[Genetic Freak]

Unless I'm mistaken, 5-HTP isn't an SSRI

It isn't.....