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Maybe 5HTP isn't the best idea?

Honestly using any SSRI would slow the healing process as far as I am concerned. It would be best to exercise, eat, sleep and treat your body well as a means of recovery. If the come down is bad enough that you cannot handle it, then you are using the drug too often.

using an SSRI does nothing for helping you up-regulate, but it blocks neurotoxicity when taken at the right time after dosing. it prevents alpha-methyldopamine from entering the SERT and frying the axon.
erowid has some good info on this subject:
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_neurotoxicity1.shtml#timecourse

I had read taking 5-HTP 3-4 hours after MDMA could address the effects of neurotoxicity.... And could be used specifically for that purpose.... Rather than taking the day after or several days after as for what has previously being discussed, thus occurring problems of down-regulation/receptor downgrade....

taking 5-htp 3-4 hours after a roll does not block neurotoxicity, but can contribute to serotonin syndrome. 5-htp should not be taken the night of a roll, it should be taken the night or two after a roll

Imo 5htp makes me feel real weird and spacey when using it recovering from mdma. Don't even bother with it as far as im concerned, vitamin B complex how ever does WONDERS. That with tryptophan, healthy foods rich in serotonin and fish oil. Exercise to and you should be recovered fairly fast, leave 5htp out.

5-htp should be taken directly before bed. during the day you need to eat right and exercise
 
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taking 5-htp 3-4 hours after a roll does not block neurotoxicity, but can contribute to serotonin syndrome. 5-htp should not be taken the night of a roll, it should be taken the night or two after a roll

There's quite a bit of info out there that might contradict that.....
 
However, prolonged use may cause adverse affects, whether this is down to a homeostatic down-regulation response.

If our diet is high in any nutrient, our body produces a homeostatic response to get rid of the excess. It gets used to processing X daily amount of all amino acids, vitamins, minerals, and other nutrients. It gets used to 'wasting' the excess.

If we take 5HTP for a month straight, your body gets used to depending on the 5HTP to maintain serotonin. So if we suddenly stop taking it, the body goes into withdrawl, because our body actually needs only a very tiny amount of tryptophan/5HTP to make serotonin. When we take excessive amounts, your body's homeostatic response is to get used to getting rid of an excessive amount.

Believe it or not, only 1-2% of converted serotonin crosses the blood-brain-barrier. There is absolutely no need for 5HTP aside from the day or two afterward. After that, it's time for diet/exercise to take over.
 
mdma stays in your system for a few days, during this time your receptors continue to down regulate while your body lacks the means to make more serotonin because of the toxic metabolites of mdma. this is the cause of the mid-week depression. the rate of up-regulation is about the same in my experience, but i have not had any brain scans to confirm this. i notice that with or without the 5-htp, i return to normal around one week after rolling. also, remember that a lot of the 5-htp doesnt make it into your brain before being metabolized to serotonin unless taken with carbidopa, and serotonin cannot cross the blood brain barrier, so it doesnt take much to help your brain.

if we can extrapolate regulation rates based on looking at psychedelic drugs, down-regulation happens almost immediately, in the order of hours, whereas up-regulation takes a few days before you can trip the same again. it will be 100% (unless you rolled so hard you gave yourself brain damage) with the proper amount of time between rolls, and taking care of yourself like darksidesam is always talking about.

5HTP will not cause any up-regulation. Time, and exercise cause up-regulation. Some studies suggest an SSRE like tianeptine

proper foods before and after a roll can increase the strength of the roll and prevent much of the comedown, so why not throw 5-htp into the mix?
Your body should make plenty of serotonin from potatoes, beans, bananas etc. 5HTP should never need to be "thrown into the mix" before rolling, or for any long-term usage.

Again, 5 HTP is converted to serotonin in the liver, and only 1-2% crosses the BBB. So that means 98-99% does not.

Don't forget, serotonin is a neurotoxin in excessive amounts. It's one of the chemicals found in bee and wasp venom..
 
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There's quite a bit of info out there that might contradict that.....

there is one paper i found that states
Perhaps the most commonly reported supplement taken with MDMA is 5-HTP, a serotonin precursor. There are numerous anecdotal reports that taking 5-HTP alone or in combination reduces both unwanted side effects and day-after effects. One paper found that very high doses of injected 5- HTP block MDMA neurotoxicity and 5-HTP has been shown to be an antioxidant, but 5- HTP's neuroprotective effect may have nothing to do with its being a mild antioxidant.20,2122 It may be that 5-HTP is particularly suited to the task of reducing MDMA's physical impact by both providing some oxidative protection and supporting the replenishing of serotonin. Unfortunately, it is also possible that 5-HTP could increase the risk of serotonin syndrome and research needs to be done to determine whether this is a practical concern.
Citation: Erowid, Earth. "Do Antioxidants Protect Against MDMA Hangover, Tolerance, and Neurotoxicity?" Erowid Extracts. Dec 2001; 2:6-11.

if you eat 5-htp you run the risk of serotonin syndrome for no proven effects. if you inject it, you run the risk of dying to prevent oxidative stress that could be better and more safely blocked by an SSRI. once again, 5-htp is for the night or two after the roll.


5HTP will not cause any up-regulation. Time, and exercise cause up-regulation. Some studies suggest an SSRE like tianeptine

see
edit for clarification: 5-htp does not cause up-regulation, 5-htp only replaces the serotonin that was drained during a roll. useful for avoiding brain zaps and mid-week depression

Your body should make plenty of serotonin from potatoes, beans, bananas etc. 5HTP should never need to be "thrown into the mix" before rolling, and on any long-term usage.

also, mdma metabolites are inhibitors of TPH, the enzyme that makes serotonin from tryptophan. 5-htp is the only way your body can make serotonin immediately following a roll
source: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_neurotoxicity1.shtml#oxidative

Again, 5 HTP is converted to serotonin in the liver, and only 1-2% crosses the BBB. So that means 98-99% of the extra sertonin is being shat and pissed out, after roaming around your bloodstream. Don't forget, serotonin is a neurotoxin in excessive amounts. It's one of the chemicals found in bee and wasp venom..

serotoinin is also responsible for causing blood to clot. thats why its in bee venom source:wikipedia
 
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didn't realize that on dancesafe.org they are at least offering caution about 5HTP in regards to "speedy recovery":

A Word of Caution: Taking 5-htp may make you feel normal again more quickly after taking Ecstasy. This may tempt you to take ecstasy more often than you would have otherwise. The beneficial effects of 5-htp supplementation (restoring serotonin) could then be offset by the more frequent depletion of serotonin. In other words, 5-htp is not a substitute for moderation. If you find yourself taking 5-htp in order to enjoy ecstasy more often, consider slowing down. Remember, more frequent use of ecstasy increases your chances of depression regardless of how healthy your brain is. LESS IS MORE.
 
Sure 5HTP makes you feel better, but is it at a cost? What if the enzymes and receptors recover, but not quite to the 100% level and then you do MDMA again and continue to repeat the cycle?

That is the only problem. Maybe people think that it adds serotonin permanently or long term? 5HTP is a complete short term fix to the 'Tuesday Blues" but it does nothing to upregulate receptors. Your tolerance is going to be the same after you took the 5HTP.


The moral of this story:

Just wait a fucking month at least.
 
also, mdma metabolites are inhibitors of TPH, the enzyme that makes serotonin from tryptophan. 5-htp is the only way your body can make serotonin immediately following a roll
source: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_neurotoxicity1.shtml#oxidative
This is false. the action is only slightly inhibited, not completely. And I'm pretty sure the metabolites also cause a decrease in other enzymes also, such as aromatic L-amino acid decarboxylase, which breaks down 5HTP into serotonin.

Another thing to consider is just because the enzyme is inhibited, doesn't mean it doesn't do its job. It does; it just takes longer to happen.

Light plays a huge roll in how much serotonin makes it over the blood brain barrier. Exercise causes up-regulation of the receptors.

Despite enzyme inhibition, I still favor good ol' dietary tryptophan + sunlight to get serotonin. I like to drink a couple glasses of milk and eat SHIT LOADS of sweets, take B vitamins, eat potatoes, beans, and bananas and go in the sun the next day after rolling. I feel the slow, steady conversion to 5HTP and then serotonin is more natural than the instant serotonin pills, especially since they don't help down-regulation of receptors and very little serotonin even goes over the BBB
 
This is false. the action is only slightly inhibited, not completely. And I'm pretty sure the metabolites also cause a decrease in other enzymes also, such as aromatic L-amino acid decarboxylase, which breaks down 5HTP into serotonin.

Another thing to consider is just because the enzyme is inhibited, doesn't mean it doesn't do its job. It does; it just takes longer to happen.

Light plays a huge roll in how much serotonin makes it over the blood brain barrier. Exercise causes up-regulation of the receptors.

Despite enzyme inhibition, I still favor good ol' dietary tryptophan + sunlight to get serotonin. I like to drink a couple glasses of milk and eat SHIT LOADS of sweets, take B vitamins, eat potatoes, beans, and bananas and go in the sun the next day after rolling. I feel the slow, steady conversion to 5HTP and then serotonin is more natural than the instant serotonin pills, especially since they don't help down-regulation of receptors and very little serotonin even goes over the BBB

while you are correct that mdma metabolites only slightly inhibit TPH, the metabolites do destroy the enzyme, making it inactive

Reduction in Tryptophan Hydroxylase (TPH) Activity

The activitv of TPH, the rate limiting enzyme in the synthesis of 5-HT, has been shown to decrease both in vivo and ex vivo following MDMA treatment (Schmidt and Taylor, 1987; Schmidt and Taylor, 1988; Stone et al., 1987; Stone et al., 1986). MDMA is reported to decrease the Vmax for TPH without an apparent change in Km for either the substrate or any of the enzyme cofactors (Schmidt and Taylor, 1987Stone ct al., 1989a). MDMA decreases TPH activity at both neurotoxic and non-neurotoxic doses (Schmidt and Taylor, 1987; Stone et al., 1987). The S-enantiomer of MDMA is a more potent inhibitor than the R-enantiomer (Johnson ct al., 1987; Schmidt ct al., 1987).

One mechanism that has been proposed for the MDMA-induced inhibition of TPH suggests a role for oxidative stress. Stone ct al. (1989b) demonstrated that hthiothreitol and reduced iron could reverse the MDMA induced inhibition of TPH 3 hours, but not 18 hours after treatment with MDMA. The results suggest that the acute decrease in TPH activity may result from oxidation of thiol groups within the TPH molecule. However, the source of this oxidative stress is unknown. That report is consistent with an earlier observation that TPH is an extremely labile enzyme (Kuhn ct al., 1980), where it was shown that the sulfhydryl groups within the TPH molecule are sensitive to oxidation, including that by molecular oxygen. in vitro studies have shown that MDMA does not directly inhibit TPH (Schmidt and Taylor, 1987) suggesting either that a metabolite of MDMA may be responsible for this inhibition, or that inhibition only occurs in the context of the neuron existing in a functional environment.

Another mechanism suggested for lowered TPH activity is that the 5HT released by MDMA activates a 5HT feedback system, resulting in a down-regulation of PH. Support for this hypothesis has been generated by data showing that 5-HT uptake inhibitors such as fluoxetine not only block the short term depiction of 5-HT but also attenuate the inhibition of TPH by MDMA (Schmidt et al., 1987; Schmidt and Taylor, 1987; Schmidt and Taylor, 1990). Ketanserin, the 5-HT,,,_ receptor antagonist, and methiothepin, the 5-HT autoreceptor antagonist, also have been shown to attenuate the inhibition of TPH when given three hours following MDMA treatment (Schmidt and Taylor, 1987).

There appears to be a time-dependent nature to the reversibility of TPH inactivation, it can only be completely restored within 3 hours following MDMA treatment. Between 3 and 6 hours, enzyme activity can only be partially restored; and after 6 hours, the loss of TPH activity cannot be reversed (Stone ct al., 1989b). The long term irreversible reduction in TPH activity is thought to reflect axonal degeneration and the short-term reversible phase is thought to be an indication of enzyme inhibition.

In summary, three potential mechanisms have been proposed for the inhibition of TPH by MDMA: (1) some form of oxidative stress within the neuron may oxidize functional thiol groups within the TPH molecule; (2) a toxic metabolite of MDMA may be responsible for TPH inhibition; or (3) activation of the autoreceptor by released 5-HT may decrease TPH activity. Of the three possibilities, the first appears most consistent with the current evidence.

source: http://www.druglibrary.eu/library/research/mdma/archive/25/default.htm

also, you mentioned that mdma can reduce aromatic L-amino acid decarboxylase activity. which can be seen as a good thing when taking 5-htp, it allows more of it to cross the blood brain barrier before it is decarboxylated and unable to pass the barrier
 
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can taking 5-HTP (and vitamin B6) beforehand be beneficial? For a couple of days before for example?

Supplementation of B-6 with 5-HTP isn't recommended..... 5-htp is a direct precursor to serotonin and passes the BBB with ease acting as a pure legal SSRI essentially. However if you supplement with B6 at the same time it converts the 5-htp into 5-ht within the blood stream before reaching the brain. The problem is 5-ht itself cannot pass into the BBB smoothly like its precursor which inevitably results in free serotonin radicals circulating the blood stream causing hypertension, tarchardia and other serotonin toxicity symptoms.
 
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Supplementation of B-6 with 5-HTP isn't recommended..... 5-htp is a direct precursor to serotonin and passes the BBB with ease acting as a pure legal SSRI essentially. However if you supplement with B6 at the same time it converts the 5-htp into 5-ht within the blood stream before reaching the brain. The problem is 5-ht itself cannot pass into the BBB smoothly like its precursor which inevitably results in free serotonin radicals circulating the blood stream causing hypertension, tarchardia and other serotonin toxicity symptoms.

B6 & B12 are used in just about every metabolic function the body/brain has. they are practically neurotransmitters (not quite, but you get the picture)

I was under the impression 5HTP is turned into serotonin with light, and I was not under the impression B6 affects the ability to cross the BBB
 
B6 & B12 are used in just about every metabolic function the body/brain has. they are practically neurotransmitters (not quite, but you get the picture)

I was under the impression 5HTP is turned into serotonin with light, and I was not under the impression B6 affects the ability to cross the BBB

i know sunlight increases serotonin, but not quite sure of the mechanism behind that. it may be indirectly a result of sunlight on vitamin d production. vitamin d looks like its responsible for quite a few important functions, notably dopamine production by increased expression of tyrosine hydroxylase in the brain.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0169328X9500314I
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D#Mechanism_of_action
 
i know sunlight increases serotonin, but not quite sure of the mechanism behind that. it may be indirectly a result of sunlight on vitamin d production. vitamin d looks like its responsible for quite a few important functions, notably dopamine production by increased expression of tyrosine hydroxylase in the brain.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0169328X9500314I
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D#Mechanism_of_action

i believe it has to do with light or darkness, serotonin or melatonin is produced from 5HTP

agreed vitamin D3 plays a very significant role in biofunction in humans. some studies even indicate it correlates with depression.
 
B6 & B12 are used in just about every metabolic function the body/brain has. they are practically neurotransmitters (not quite, but you get the picture)

From what I understand: 5-Hydroxytryptophan is decarboxylated to serotonin (5-hydroxytryptamine or 5-HT) by the enzymearomatic-L-amino-acid decarboxylase with the help of vitamin B6. So some B-6 is needed as part of a healthy diet but not directly consumed together....
 
i believe it has to do with light or darkness, serotonin or melatonin is produced from 5HTP

agreed vitamin D3 plays a very significant role in biofunction in humans. some studies even indicate it correlates with depression.

I believe serotonin is primarily methylated in the synthesis of melatonin..
5-HT is biosynthetically derived by two enzymatic steps: ring hydroxylation of the essential amino acid tryptophan by tryptophan hydroxylase, and side chain decarboxylation by aromatic amino acid decarboxylase.. http://www.people.vcu.edu/~mreimers/SysNeuro/Nichols - Serotonin receptors.pdf

Melatonin is synthesised from serotonin in a 2-step process that takes an acetly group from acetyl-CoA and a methyl group from by SAMe (S-Adenosyl Methionine).
Melatonin release is inhibited as a result of the response of the SCN (SupraChiasmatic Neucleus) to light. The SCN is richly innervated by serotonergic input from the dorsal raphe nucleus. Serotonin inhibits the responsiveness of the SCN (and thus the circadian rhythm) to light.[ANNALS OF MEDICINE 31:12-33 (1999)].
 
I've tried 5-HTP and it didn't seem to do anything besides give me a stomach ache and diarrhea. It seems a lot of it is converted to serotonin outside the brain.

Yeah, it gave me an upset stomach to the few times I tried it. It is supposed to be taken on an empty stomach and especially without any proteins, otherwise it won't even get absorbed.

I wonder how many people actually take it that way...
 
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