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Maximizing Absorbtion and Length Of Peak

Originally posted by 1badrabbit
So if MDMA dosage isn't linear would you mind explaining exactly how the dosage works in relation to the amount taken to the effects you feel. Thanks for the help thus far I have learned a shitload.
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If you take a look at this study abstract http://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?ID=382
(Non-linear pharmacokinetics of MDMA (`ecstasy') in humans
de la Torre R, Farre' M, Ortu�o J, Mas M, Brenneisen R, Roset PN, Segura J, Cam� J
Br J Clin Pharmacol, 2000; 49(2):104-9)

It indicates that the liver enzyme which metabolises MDMA (CYP2D6) becomes 'saturated' at certain MDMA doses. Above such doses MDMA remains in the body longer as the liver basically can't keep up with the process of breaking down MDMA to it's inactive metabolites (HMMA & HMA - at least I think they are inactive).

If you open up the full study (PDF) you will find on page 5, graphs (Fig. 2) which represent this. (I will see if I get can a pic of these up here later today or tomorrow).

When comparing a dose of 100mg to a dose of 150mg of MDMA there is more than double the plasma concentration in the higer doses - even though the actual does is only 50% more.

Just a quick table of dose vs plasma concentration.

MDMA (mg), Plasma Concentration (ugl-1)
50, ~90
100, ~195
150, ~440

Anyhow I think that's how it works. V-X and Bliz0r will be able to explain and interpret that a lot better than I can and correct any mistakes I have made.

Also while sucking info on MDMA if you haven't read the MDMA FAQ I would highly recommend it. You will learn heaps of practical knowledge.
 
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Great thread! Although all this information is probably already available, its a nice recap. I wasn't aware about the plasma concentration bit...

Also if two at once increases the intensity and duration of the peak is taking 1 and 1 later just a waste of pills essentially?
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Good question.... I would have thought you could stretch the roll out a little longer by taking singles over time. But now that I've seen that plasma concentration table I would be inclined to think differently...
 
The graph that depicts the information described by doodle (nice job man) can be seen here.

The graph shows that doses of 50 through 125mg the plasma concentration increases linearly, but note that the major metabolite of MDMA which they call HMMA, doesn't increase at all really.

Then there is a large increase in concentration from 125 to 150mg. With each 25mg increase in dose, there seems to be a rough 50ng/mL plasma increase in MDMA. But from 125 to 150 theres nearly a 200ng/mL increase in MDMA.

And you can see that this plasma increase is also mirrored by the blood preasure, which is used as an objective measure of how "high" the person is.
 
Now I am curious how much MDMA would it take to cause toxicity to a point of permanent damage or serious risk of death? I weighed my pills using a digital scale and they weigh 199mg each. The test results on them came back as 83.3% MDMA and 16.7% MDE. I would figure at 199mg there probably isn't more then 90-100mg of active ingredient max. Last time I took one I peaked for about 1-2 hours max and it wasn't terribly intense. Do you guys have any suggestions on how to determine if I am at risk for developing toxicity from taking both pills at once? Also if I decided to take 1.5 pills initially what would be the best time to take the other half pill to get the maximum effect from it?
Also thanks to doodle and BilZ0r for the the graph and explanation it sheds a good amount of light on the subject.
 
hehehe unless you have some sort of heart or blood pressure condition, then two pills wont put you in any danger at all, unless your not 'water wise'

youll just be off your face and loving it :)

and bilzor, why do you say not to take pills sublingually? is it just a tatse thing or is there a chemical reason? becuase i used to take pills this way, and they hit you hard and fast. harder and faster than snorting them imho. both snorting, plugging and sublingual bypass the first pass metabolism right? while parachuting just does the job of breaking the pill down for you, your not getting anymore MDMA than if you swallow it...

i think the best way is snort a whole pill, and when your rolling nicely drop the second, you get the best of both worlds that way.
 
I wish I could comment more on the human toxicity, and the make up of your pills, but there's something weird about what those percentages mean; and I always forget what.

Why do I say forget sublingual? For several reasons. As you say, the taste is foul. Also, when you put powder under your tounge, you salivate like crazy, meaning that you end up swollowing heaps, and as you salivate, you decrease the concentration of MDMA, which means that the absorption isn't that much faster... yeah, all of those things.
 
^ I think the term toxicity is getting muddled here. The article refers to toxicity as in that the MDMA is the toxin (i.e. your liver is try to get rid of it).

It is not related to the issue of neurotoxicity or brain damage.
At least that is how I am reading it.
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So would you agree that there is probably very little chance of doing any sort of long term damage to my body by dropping 2 of the pills I mentioned at the same time? I realize its impossible to say for sure, but you both seem to be extremely informed on the subject so just a quick expert opinion from both of you would good for me.
The sublingual thing wasn't really all that bad taste wise, but it seems that there really aren't that many atvantages to doing it this way. If the general opinion is that I won't be at any great risk from dropping 2 at once I will probably swallow them both or dissolve one and swallow the other.
Also when doing the baking soda you were talking about 45 minutes before I eat the pill and 45 minutes after I ate the pill correct?
Once again thanks to you guys I am sure I will have a much better experience because of the information I have gained in this thread.
 
1badrabbit I don't think your going to do yourself permanent damage by double dropping. But if your pills do contain 100mg of MDxx as you suspect double dropping could be hardcore intense. 100mg is a pretty decent biccy these days. It could be so intense that it is overwhelming.

Personally I would give 1 & 1/2 a go first. Thats a dose of a suspected 150mg, which according to the study we have been looking at will get around the area where you plasma concentration will go through the roof (of course the exact dose for this to happen will vary from person to person).
 
Well I figured they weigh 199mg so they probably don't have 100mg of MDMA in them. Plus when I took one it wasn't terribly intense which leads me to believe the dose is somewhat lower. I mean I doubt 50% of the weight of the pill is MDMA. That doesn't seem very likely to me what do you think?
 
It could be very likely. A lot of pills "receipes" I've seen use 70-80% active ingredients.
 
Seeing your pretty determined to have an intense roll I would take the last 1/2 as soon as peak has lost it's edge. Or if the peak isn't as stong as you thought it would be drop it at the peak.

I have a feeling that you will be rolling complete balls from 1 & 1/2.
 
You are correct I do wanna roll my balls off. I just took one full pill last time and the comeup very intense, but the peak wasn't as intense or as long as I would have liked. So I figure dropping 1.5 or 2 pills next time will ensure I will get completely fucked off my ass lol. Thanks for all your help so far its definitely made me a lot more comfortable about the whole situation.
 
yeah ive often found that one pill wont make me peak properly, but 1.5 will get me off my face. then drop the last half a couple hours later to lengthen it a bit. a recipe for fun :)

do you guys who dont like sublingual just pop a pill under your tongue? this is *not* the way to do it. crush your pill into a fine powder first, put it on a piece of paper thats folded to make a spout and pour it under your tongue. use sheer willpower NOT to swallow anything, and after about 10 mins ive found that theere is noithing but a tasteless powdery substance left...
 
if u want ur roll to last longer then have some speed too. definately works. then have a little bit more when u start to some down.
if i was u, id take 1 whole, then half an hour later and the other half an hour later again. the halves wont make u roll harder just longer.



or just try to get ur hands on some real good beans
 
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