Many Washington marijuana activists oppose legalization initiative

[sekio]

This law is just another attempt to corporatize a plant that will make them millions...
I for one would just like to see the power over production of marijuana in the hands of the people, not the Government we all know and hate

It's this kind of thinking that dooms the legalization movement quite often.
Big Tobacco/Paper/Pharma is evil for supressing cannabis, because it can't be patented and is a ready cure for social/economic/medical woes. But if they support legalization, then they're horrible for trying to make money. Either way you can blame the corporations.

Back when alcohol prohibition was repealed, only beer with less than 3% alcohol was legal initially. Over time, alcohol possession laws have evolved to where they are now. Don't expect cannabis to be much different.

Exactly. I know the ideal situation is that cannabis is totally deregulated and anyone can grow and sell it without penalties, but look at the situation of microbrews and homebrews today. Is that not an acceptable compromise? There are brews from all "walks of life" at my local liquor store - local microbrews, beer made by local companies, and imports too. And of course there's nothing stopping me from brewing my own, as long as I don't sell it. (*This is the same deal as not selling homemade baked goods for a living.) There's no tax on microbrew.

The people who want instant full legalization but no government control are in a pipe dream.

If by your prediction the price of marijuana will go up, start growing yourself when it's legalized and save money. Having it remain illegal makes reliance on expensive gray market drugs much more of a problem.

 

[Folley]

If by your prediction the price of marijuana will go up, start growing yourself when it's legalized and save money. Having it remain illegal makes reliance on expensive gray market drugs much more of a problem.

That's the problem though. For one, you can't grow under 502... at all. And I know you're going to say "oh but you can't grow now either!". True, but the penalties for doing so are VERY light currently, most people don't even mind the risk. It's not even a felony iirc.

If this law passes the penalties for growing become EXTREMELY stiff, like the same for producing hard drugs.



and that whole "weed is expensive because it's illegal" is bull shit... Medical weed is legal but it's like a third more expensive than the same quality of illegal weed

 

[sekio]

For one, you can't grow under 502... at all.

Part III establishes a license system for marijuana producers, processors and retailers. Initial licenses shall be $250 with an annual renewal fee of $1000. Rules prohibit producers and processors from having any financial interest in retailers, much like the three-tier system for hard liquor in control states.

You can still grow, but you need a permit. I don't see how having it *all* be illegal under the current laws makes it any better.
If you really think the feds will start giving people *more* shit for small scale closet grows when the law is passed you certainly have a grim outlook. How many arrests are there for unlicensed moonshining these days?

 

[Survived Abortion]

further legalization can come in another bill.

No one can guarantee this. Common sense says the Government will never give up control of the monopoly that will make them billions once they have it

But then...​

So congratulations, if you stop the passage of 502, there will be no 514! Or any other bill in Washington.
Nice job.

Lol.

No one can say this for sure, not with a serious face on at least.

See how divisively hypocritical your argument is? On the one hand, you're telling us all that "the people" will have endless opportunities for legalization no matter how often you turn them down. And on the other hand you're saying that once a bill passes "the people" will never be able to change it again. Come on mate, just listen to the bollocks you're talking.

Sure the government has a monetary interest in marijuana - you're never going to get around that no matter how hard you try because that is how civilization is run. If you think you are going to get a bill any time soon which effectively legalizes the use of a drug but which leaves the government penniless, then you are truly living in la-la land. It's not gonna happen, not until human beings stop worshipping the god of fiat currency.

Those of us who are heavy smokers are going to be paying a LOT more for weed (15 a gram usually), and you can add a hefty tax on top of that. Now all the sudden that gram is costing you almost $20... yeah, there's no way I could continue to smoke with those kind of prices.

Don't continue to smoke then. Or get it from someone who continues to grow it illegally - which they will. What's your complaint? You're accusing everyone of being too impatient and too eager to accept the first law that comes along, but actually it's people you who is too impatient; you're not willing to look at the bigger picture and see that full legalization takes time and that compromises must be made during that process.

And to shrug off the 'Dead Mexicans' issue just because of your claim that "most marijuana in Washington is home-grown" pretty much says it all. You don't really care about the rest of the world, only what suits you in Washington right now.

 

[$linky]

and that whole "weed is expensive because it's illegal" is bull shit... Medical weed is legal but it's like a third more expensive than the same quality of illegal weed

Medical cannabis is not legal, it is still a scheduled drug; even with a medical card it's not legal on a federal level. Dispensaries are naturally put in the eye of authorities, because they are legal at the state level. The risk of a dispensary getting raided by a federal organization is high, and as such you are going to pay for that risk. The quality of product is also very high, think about the price ranges of scotch, or other liquors. Also because a dispensary can only sell to those with an MMJ card, they are not in a position to undercut dealers at all. The patients buying from them are given this choice: Buy cheap schwag from a dealer; Buy expensive weed from a dealer; buy expensive weed from a dispensary.

If marijuana was legal, the market would undergo many changes. Supply would likely increase, and at first demand would spike. However as seen in the Netherlands, my prediction of usage is that it will actually decrease slightly below the current level. With lower demand, less risk, and higher supply the prices will decrease. When it becomes a legal business, the enormous drop in risk will result in less cost to growers, dealers and users. It will cascade all the way down to the prices.

Think back to the 1920's during prohibition. Bootlegged alcohol, was usually very watered down and made to maximize profits. They also charged many times more for bootleg than was ever charged before prohibition. Weed is currently being inflated exponentially by being illegal, because there are 0 controls on anything in a black market.

 

[killermunchies]

Medical cannabis is not legal, it is still a scheduled drug; even with a medical card it's not legal on a federal level. Dispensaries are naturally put in the eye of authorities, because they are legal at the state level. The risk of a dispensary getting raided by a federal organization is high, and as such you are going to pay for that risk. The quality of product is also very high, think about the price ranges of scotch, or other liquors. Also because a dispensary can only sell to those with an MMJ card, they are not in a position to undercut dealers at all. The patients buying from them are given this choice: Buy cheap schwag from a dealer; Buy expensive weed from a dealer; buy expensive weed from a dispensary.

If marijuana was legal, the market would undergo many changes. Supply would likely increase, and at first demand would spike. However as seen in the Netherlands, my prediction of usage is that it will actually decrease slightly below the current level. With lower demand, less risk, and higher supply the prices will decrease. When it becomes a legal business, the enormous drop in risk will result in less cost to growers, dealers and users. It will cascade all the way down to the prices.

Think back to the 1920's during prohibition. Bootlegged alcohol, was usually very watered down and made to maximize profits. They also charged many times more for bootleg than was ever charged before prohibition. Weed is currently being inflated exponentially by being illegal, because there are 0 controls on anything in a black market.

Exactly. You nailed it. Right now, the vast majority of every dollar that is spent on black market weed goes to risk compensation, ridiculously inefficient transportation and/or importation, and to inefficient distribution. All of these costs could be greatly reduced if weed was legal. Compare alcohol and weed. Right now, alcohol gets made in a large and efficient factory, gets shipped to a distributor in a massive truck, and then gets sold to liquor stores or bars. Weed, on the other hand, gets made in relatively small grow houses, gets shipped in someones spare tire well a few bags at a time, goes through a half dozen drug dealers who all want good money for their risk, and then finally gets to the people paying $20 for a gram. It isn't expensive to grow weed, but it costs a ton to distribute it through the black market.

 

[Folley]

Weed, on the other hand, gets made in relatively small grow houses, gets shipped in someones spare tire well a few bags at a time, goes through a half dozen drug dealers who all want good money for their risk, and then finally gets to the people paying $20 for a gram.

lololol what the fuck? Is this weed or heroin?


No, it get's grown by a guy who has probably been making a living off weed for the past 15 years, sold by the pound to a distributor who breaks it down into QPs and ounces and sells it to a dealer who sell it for usually $10 a gram..


So legal weed is cheaper then huh? What about in Amsterdam? That's a great example, is it not? They have no risk there... and they sell the weed for 13 Euro a gram. That's 16 USD, more expensive than the medical weed.
So everything you said is based on bull shit.

If marijuana was legal, the market would undergo many changes. Supply would likely increase

Supply would go down, as only Government licensed growers would be able to produce weed for the shops.. and those grows are likely to be Government run as well. Anyone else who decides to risk the new laws and keep growing (even medical patients who have been growing legally for years) could face up to 10 years in jail for growing a plant.

See how divisively hypocritical your argument is? On the one hand, you're telling us all that "the people" will have endless opportunities for legalization no matter how often you turn them down. And on the other hand you're saying that once a bill passes "the people" will never be able to change it again. Come on mate, just listen to the bollocks you're talking

Both of those quotes are saying the same thing, you have just yet to realize the argument I'm making. No matter how often we turn them down? You just pulled that out of your ass. I'm telling you that we don't need to settle for this law that is designed to use what we want against us. We are simply being too eager to give FULL power over marijuana to the government. Currently, we run this market, and it's been working fine for us. We all want it legalized, and the Gov. realizes this so they're using that eagerness against us so they can set up their Marijuana Monopoly

What I'm saying is that we have the power to "legalize it", and that we don't need to settle for the first ridiculous law to come by to realize our goals. 502 really clamps down HARD on marijuana, they just let the people who are only buying from the Government off free...




So you guys know that with this law, they will also be instating a new policy to check for stoned drivers... anyone who tests positive on a pee test can get charged with a DUS. That means even a MONTH after your last joint, you can get hauled to jail for being a danger on the road.

Did you guys also support that, or just the part where you can buy weed from a store..? Because if we vote for this, we get both.





This law does a LOT more than you people realize.

 

[sekio]

Did you miss the part where
* the government isn't growing all the weed?
* The piss/blood test is for THC only (NOT the metabolites that last forever! only active THC), and has a reasonably high cutoff.

I can assure you weed in amsterdam is cheaper than 13E/g in bulk - how do you think the coffee shops stay in business? Not tips.

Anyone else who decides to risk the new laws and keep growing (even medical patients who have been growing legally for years) could face up to 10 years in jail for growing a plant.

Federally they already are fucked, so anything is an improvement IMO. The DEA ain't exactly behind medical marijuaana programs.

 

[Folley]

This wouldn't change this fact that it's illegal on a federal level. The DEA can still bust people if they want.

and I didn't mean that the Government themselves would be growing weed, just that only Government licensed growers would be able to grow. That's a blatant attempt to gain full control over the marijuana economy.. Not something I support. If they want to tax weed, I'm OK with that.. but I'm not exactly excited to vote for a law that sets up a Government controlled monopoly.

The piss/blood test is for THC only (NOT the metabolites that last forever! only active THC), and has a reasonably high cutof

That's something I did not know, but THC itself can stay in the body for days especially after heavy smoking.




The main point that I'm trying to make here is that we have the power to be more selective and vote in a law that will get this right the first time.. instead of creating a flawed system that we need to fix later.

Just because this law legalizes marijuana does not mean that it's something that will be good for us as a whole. I think we should be especially wary of a law with such obvious monetary gains behind it instead of a law that's designed to reform Marijuana laws and finally create a just system under which people are able to grow and use a plant however they want

 

[killermunchies]

lololol what the fuck? Is this weed or heroin?


No, it get's grown by a guy who has probably been making a living off weed for the past 15 years, sold by the pound to a distributor who breaks it down into QPs and ounces and sells it to a dealer who sell it for usually $10 a gram..


So legal weed is cheaper then huh? What about in Amsterdam? That's a great example, is it not? They have no risk there... and they sell the weed for 13 Euro a gram. That's 16 USD, more expensive than the medical weed.
So everything you said is based on bull shit.

It depends on the distribution chain and who you know. It also depends where it is coming from. Some guy who runs a grow operation in Canada isn't smuggling it over the border himself. And weed isn't legal in the Netherlands. It is only decriminalized. They let coffee shops sell a few grams at a time, but how do you think those coffee shops get their weed? Through the black market of course. Shipping large amounts of weed in the Netherlands is still illegal. It doesn't show up to the coffee shops in a large truck with a pot leaf on the side. There is still plenty of risk involved, and people DO get arrested there for some weed-related crimes.

Supply would go down, as only Government licensed growers would be able to produce weed for the shops.. and those grows are likely to be Government run as well. Anyone else who decides to risk the new laws and keep growing (even medical patients who have been growing legally for years) could face up to 10 years in jail for growing a plant.





Both of those quotes are saying the same thing, you have just yet to realize the argument I'm making. No matter how often we turn them down? You just pulled that out of your ass. I'm telling you that we don't need to settle for this law that is designed to use what we want against us. We are simply being too eager to give FULL power over marijuana to the government. Currently, we run this market, and it's been working fine for us. We all want it legalized, and the Gov. realizes this so they're using that eagerness against us so they can set up their Marijuana Monopoly

What is wrong with growers being government licensed? It would make it cheaper and make the weed regulated, just like booze is now. And this market may be working fine for you, but there are plenty of people currently in jail that would argue otherwise. Just because the law may not be perfect now, doesn't mean that it couldn't be changed later. And also, if no one is stopping YOU from breaking the law now, I'm sure you'll be fine if it passes.

So you guys know that with this law, they will also be instating a new policy to check for stoned drivers... anyone who tests positive on a pee test can get charged with a DUS. That means even a MONTH after your last joint, you can get hauled to jail for being a danger on the road.

Did you guys also support that, or just the part where you can buy weed from a store..? Because if we vote for this, we get both.


This law does a LOT more than you people realize.

There are DWI laws that cover all illegal drugs currently in place in every state as it is. Nothing changes in that department. Although hopefully after they legalize it, they'll find a way to set a fair limit.

 

[Folley]

I'm just going to skip most of that, because honestly I'm high as hell on some great hashish and most of that is relatively unimportant to the arguments I'm making... but...

What is wrong with growers being government licensed?

Only a small number of growers WILL BE ABLE TO get licenses, it takes one man and a few trimmers to grow a couple hundred pounds of weed, a few Gov. licensed grows of a massive size could sustain the whole state... and put every other grower out of business. Currently smaller medical growers are able to make their living by selling smaller amounts (a few pounds) to the dispensaries every couple of months... this takes their lively hood away from them... you might not care about that, but those growers have treated us right for the past 40 years and it would sadden me to see us just turn our backs on them like that.



and you keep saying that people will continue to break the law, but would you risk that small time grow in your attic if it's going to put you in jail for 10 years? Hell no, or if you do, you're going to drive the price WAY up to compensate for the risks.



Again, all you people see is the "weed will be legal!!1!!11!!!2!" and you don't realize what this bill means to us as a whole. Sure, change MIGHT come later if for some reason the Government thinks their Monopoly isn't working (fat fucking chance), but wouldn't it be better just to get this shit right the first time and vote in the Homegrown law instead?

 

[sekio]

The authority under 502 that controls marijuana licensing and distribution is the state liquor control board. some government monopoly.

Only a small number of growers WILL BE ABLE TO get licenses,

Where do you see that? The text of the bill basically says that anyone can get a license to grow and produce marijuana with a few restrictions.

If you sell cannabis commercially in a store front, you can't grow or process it. (This is to stop Evil Monopolies.)

The LCB can inspect your premises, you have to be 21, no criminal background, and you get 'printed.

There's a 30 day period where the city or surrounding residents can petition to have a license denied, again decided by the LCB.

It looks no more stringent to me than getting a liquor license for a bar. Do you see a shortage of bars, alcohol, even homebrew in Washington? No? Go read the bill again, this time try to stop being a wet blanket.

As an alternative, perhaps you have some better way to tax and regulate cannabis that doesn't involve regulatory agencies.

 

[pete+carl]

face it the government isnt going to just legalize something without getting anything in return
alcohol and tobacco are currently heavily taxed yet remain relatively affordable

stoners are just to unwilling to compromise which makes them infuriating to have a discussion/conversation with

 

[choco1ate]

folley, you are only echoing the fear mongering of the dispensaries which is disheartening. the medical community in WA is a fucking joke and they're being very unreasonable in not seeing past their own self interest. it's not about them and it's not about you, it's about having a reasonable alternative to prohibition. the ONLY way this will happen is with heavy government involvment and a huge shift from how things work now. deal with that

 

[Survived Abortion]

Both of those quotes are saying the same thing, you have just yet to realize the argument I'm making. [Survived Abortion's Note: referring to my quotes in post #64 of the conversation between treezy z and Folley, and curioushat and Folley]

Oh I see, you're one of those who likes to make a forum debate a whole lot more complicated than it needs to be by using untruths and twisting what someone else said in order to dissipate the wrongness of your argument. No, the quotes I posted (which show that you are talking shit) are NOT saying the same thing. READ THEM AGAIN:

further legalization can come in another bill. [Survived Abortion's Note: in the context of the original post, treezy z was saying that further amendments and reforms can be made to this law once it has passed, and you knew this and responded thusly]

No one can guarantee this. Common sense says the Government will never give up control of the monopoly that will make them billions once they have it

In other words, you acknowledged that he was referring to reforms of the law once it had passed, and then went on to say that such a thing would never happen.

Next Quote:

So congratulations, if you stop the passage of 502, there will be no 514! Or any other bill in Washington.
Nice job. [Survived Abortion's Note: in the context of the discussion, curioushat is clearly voicing his/her concerns that there may not be another chance for full legalization in Washington for quite a while.]

Lol.

No one can say this for sure, not with a serious face on at least.

In other words, here you are challenging the idea that there will not be another such chance for legalization, reflecting what you have repeated many time during the course of this argument (that there will be many more opportunities for legalization).

My point in originally juxtaposing these quotes was to show what an idiot you are by, on one hand, arguing that you will have endless opportunities for legalization (and therefore we don't need to jump at the first bill which comes along), but on the other hand trying to argue that if this bill (502) passes there will never be any more opportunities to reform the law.

You are either unaware of the stupidity of your stance on this matter, or else you are purposefully using divisive argumentative tactics aimed at confusing those who are not fully paying attention. Either way, I am calling you out on it.

 

[Folley]

What the fuck are you talking about?

Both of those quotes are saying that NO ONE KNOWS what is going to happen after this law is put into power. You guys are saying that further legalization MAY come later... but I'm saying that no one can say if that's going to happen. If weed is "legal" in the eyes of the non-smoking population, than support for any further amendments is going to fade.


Then you go on to say that if we don't pass 502, than by default 514 will not pass... that's a damn fallacy if I've ever seen one.

arguing that you will have endless opportunities for legalization

Now your putting words in my mouth, and frankly that's complete fucking bull shit... and I'm sure you know it as well. My argument is saying that we don't NEED to pass this unjust law, because there is ANOTHER bill that will be MUCH better for us.

So yeah, you still have yet to understand what I'm saying.





You guys have even said yourself, if we pass 502 we will NEED amendments on it later to fix the corrupt system it is determined to make.....

So just tell, me.. Washington voters support marijuana legalization. We are on the verge of having FULL LEGALIZATION of marijuana in the next few years... what exactly would we gain in voting in this obviously ill-motivated law instead of taking the time to get this right the first time?

514 will be on the ballot next year, it's not like if we vote down 502 we won't ever have another shot...





The point I'm really trying to make here, is that we should be extremely wary of laws with such obvious motivations.... even if the law is seemingly for a just purpose, it can be used for very unjust reasons.


I'm pretty damn sure 502 is going to get voted in anyways, hell honestly, I would probably vote for it myself.... but take notice California and the other states that will follow, because they're going to try and pass these same bull shit laws all over the country...



I just don't want to see the entire countries laws to be based on a horrible system that was started here in Washington, again. I would MUCH rather we get it right the first time, rather then fucking it up for everyone just because we were too eager to make marijuana legal.



and frankly, it scares me a bit that even seemingly educated people are willing to throw their full support behind this without ever taking the time to REALLY find out what this bill does..

 

[choco1ate]

your reasoning only makes sense with a severely distorted view of reality. in your world full legalization is the only option and anything "imperfect" is a hinderance to that goal. in the meantime people in WA are still going to jail for pot but thats just fine with you because "full legalization is right around the corner guys!"

 

[sekio]

If 502 passes there is nothing preventing future bills from amending or altering it.

Again, please, show me where the 'corruption' in weed licencing is. Do you consider getting a liquor license to be an example of facist pigdog police state corruption?

 

[23536]

Anyone else who decides to risk the new laws and keep growing (even medical patients who have been growing legally for years) could face up to 10 years in jail for growing a plant.

You've made this claim a few times, so I assume it's part of the No on 502 campaign. Several sources report that it is false: that the ban on personal cultivation does not include medical patients.

Here is the text of 502 (pdf):

http://sos.wa.gov/_assets/elections/initiatives/i502.pdf

NEW SECTION. Sec. 9. For the purpose of carrying into effect the
provisions of this act according to their true intent or of supplying
any deficiency therein, the state liquor control board may adopt rules
not inconsistent with the spirit of this act as are deemed necessary
or advisable. Without limiting the generality of the preceding
sentence, the state liquor control board is empowered to adopt rules
regarding the following:

(12) Identification, seizure, confiscation, destruction, or
donation to law enforcement for training purposes of all marijuana,
useable marijuana, and marijuana-infused products produced, processed,
sold, or offered for sale within this state which do not conform in
all respects to the standards prescribed by this act or the rules
adopted to implement and enforce it: PROVIDED, That nothing in this
act shall be construed as authorizing the state liquor control board
to seize, confiscate, destroy, or donate to law enforcement marijuana,
useable marijuana, or marijuana-infused products produced, processed,
sold, offered for sale, or possessed in compliance with the Washington
state medical use of cannabis act, chapter 69.51A RCW.
.

My emphasis on that last paragraph.

 

[Folley]

If 502 passes there is nothing preventing future bills from amending or altering it.

Right, except the billions of dollars that they will be receiving yearly. I'm sure they will throw just as much support for future laws as the lobbyists are behind 502 even though it means they lose massive amounts of money... that's the part that really scares me, it's not just the people that want weed legal who support this, but the ones who made it illegal in the first place as well.

There are commercials on right now telling people to support 502, and the premise of the entire commercial is "Other people are making shit loads of money off weed, we should too!"





I'm glad that they aren't going after the medical patients right to grow, I guess I just assumed that would be going as well... because I mean, if weed is legal, what the point of medical marijuana? Medical smokers self medicate anyways, and it's not like there is a difference between weed smoked for medical reasons and weed smoked for recreational reasons.