Manchester Arena explosion: 22 killed in 'terror attack by suicide bomber' at concer

[Wolfsangel 88]

Just because these individuals reside in this country does not mean they are truely British citizens. 100 years ago this kind of nonsense would be regarded as treason. We've become so soft its embarrassing. It truely is. Rights and freedoms are granted to citizens who believe in our value system, even those who have issues with it as most of us do, but those who actively wish death and destruction of the innocent from a clearly alien value system? We should not tolerate that. They are not arguing from a place of logic or reason, or to actively improve our values or nation.. they intend the opposite, the subversion and replacement of it with a foreign system.

Friend, thank you. This is exactly what I attempted to communicate on the European forum and I was accused of being a Hitlerist. I fear your comments will fall on deaf ears but for what it is worth I agree.

 

[spacejunk]

To be fair, the "hitlerist" label is something you've created all on your own.
It's not only boneheads that know what "88" means. Or wolfsangel, for that matter.

It's cute that you guys think Big Brother will protect you. Surprising that anyone believes in benevolent government oppression any more, but maybe that's just me.

 

[swilow]

SS, I agree that something needs to be done. I've no idea what but I personally don't think that Trumps attmpts to block Muslims from entering the US are the right way. I'm not sure if that is your idea though.

What would you propose to stop terrorism?

 

[-=SS=-]

It's cute that you guys think Big Brother will protect you. Surprising that anyone believes in benevolent government oppression any more, but maybe that's just me.

What would you rather have: a government that protects its citizens, or vigilante groups dispencing blind justice? You can't keep pretending there is no problem and rehashing cliche left-wing sound bites. This issue is not going to go away, sooner or later it has to be resolved. Either the gov does its job or the public will do it for them. Don't kid yourself mate, we are rapidly approaching that point and not just in the UK.

Monitoring has prevented multiple terror attacks, so your point is moot anyway, but even then the 9 billion we've spent and laws passed still isn't enough.

What's your solutions to this? Do you even have any? Or do you simply prefer to defer the issue and moan about how oppressed we all are by the man. This isn't 1969, that free floating idealism is not going to cut the mustard, or anarchism or what ever it is you actually believe in.

 

[spacejunk]

I've explained to you multiple times that i don't think there are any easy solutions.
Here's a couple of thoughts though - cut the racist scapegoating of muslims, stop western military interference in the middle east.

That's just a start. I think it's too late in many ways - our governments helped create this problem, and more of the same isn't going to fix it.
Terrorist attacks can happen anywhere. State repression has never prevented it entirely.
That's why this cowardly jihadi went for such a soft target - all the more predictable targets are more monitored and secured.
We can throw all the taxpayer funds available at surveillance, monitoring, censorship and other types of state intelligence snooping - but if some cunt wants to make a bomb and set it off in a crowded space, there are times when all the big data and state surveillance is going to make no difference.

We are all vulnerable to terrorism, because that's how it works. Undermining peoples' sense of security.
But that's also why we shouldn't yield to it, and allow our governments and law enforcement to erode our human rights.

The only solution i can see to this problem is taking steps to decrease the resentment felt in the muslim world towards the west.
But that's a complex issue. I'm not so naive as to think there is some quick fix to this nightmare.

You really need to lay off the judgemental ad-homs. It's not a good look.

 

[-=SS=-]

What would you propose to stop terrorism?

I've proposed a couple of ideas already in this thread. But I'll throw out another. We need to vet all migrants coming from the ME or African nations. We should have been doing that anyway really.

I don't understand the hysteria regarding Trumps travel ban decision. This is a serious issue that requires decisive action and that seems like a good sensible first step. Some people may lose out, but tough shit. Again why should the citizens care.. this isn't an arbitrary call or unjustified action.. it is a proportionate response to a very real threat.

You can't keep deferring the problem because any potential solution offered offends your delicate sensibilities. Half the reason Trump won is precisely because of that.. people were fed up with ineffectual politicians with no balls. Difficult decisions have to be made, that's what politicians are there for.

People are too soft and are acting like children. Meanwhile the men with no fear of death continue to advance.

 

[-=SS=-]

I've explained to you multiple times that i don't think there are any easy solutions. Here's a couple of thoughts though - cut the racist scapegoating of muslims, stop western military interference in the middle east.

What you're basically saying is you don't agree with the proposed solutions offered because they offend your delicate sensibilities.

The only solution i can see to this problem is taking steps to decrease the resentment felt in the muslim world towards the west.
But that's a complex issue. I'm not so naive as to think there is some quick fix to this nightmare.

Right. Again its all the Wests fault and this has absolutely nothing to do with inherent defects in Islam itself. You are right, you are being naive because even a cursory examination of the Islamic faith shows quite clearly it has major incompatibility issues with our liberal western values.

Why are you so desperately trying to avoid confronting the truth about Islam?

Our military intervention didn't cause the rise of 'extremism' in Islam. It was already there. Islam is already extreme by our 21st century values. All we did was provide a focus for the primitive energy bubbling beneath the surface.

Your solution is a joke. I'd really love to see you try to argue and placate muslims in the ME. No combination of words is ever going to convince them to evolve their paradigm, and you are incredibly naive to even believe that is possible. Just listen to what ex-muslims say and you'd understand why. Sorry SJ, you just aren't perceiving this correctly.

 

[spacejunk]

You don't read very carefully, do you?
Comprehension skills could use some work.

 

[-=SS=-]

You don't read very carefully, do you?
Comprehension skills could use some work.

I responded to the content in your post sufficiently. The idea that we can talk down or 'educate' these people is not going to work. Neither is stopping military activity going to work, though that should be done anyway.

Simply saying there is nothing we can do to stop this is the same defeatist logic that Sadiq Khan uses. That's not going to be accepted by the majority of the public and rightly so - the governments first job is our security. Tolerating continued terrorism is unacceptable - we have no obligation to host individuals or groups who perpetuate this crap.

The muslims who raped and continue to rape young white girls around this country has zero connection to military events. None. This is the bare face of Islam showing through. What's your excuse for that behaviour?

 

[spacejunk]

Oh, so british men don't rape? That's a good one.

My problem with your attitude towards islam is that it is ill-informed, stereotyped, disingenuous rubbish.
I have no problem with muslim people. I do have a problem with people that take any opportunity they can to justify their bigotry and lead the cheer squad urging us all to start goose-stepping for the Man down the high street.
It's muslims now, and it's been many other groups of people in the past that have been singled out by demagogues and racists.

I have some lovely muslim friends, but i would never associate knowingly with some "omg white genocide" chauvinist.

Islamo-fascism (as christopher hitchens called it) is no reason to embrace any other incarnation of fascism. I don't trust anyone who uses these sorts attacks to argue that we need to give more power to governments and agents of the state to "keep us safe".

As you said - quite a few planned terrorist attacks have been prevented, but to argue that we always need more "action" from government/spy agencies/law enforcement is the epitome of a knee-jerk response to terrorism.

I'd love to see you showing concern for women's rights more often, but interestingly you only seem to talk about rape when blaming it on muslims.
Of course, it's all about "young white girls", isn't it?
The same patriarchal posturing - and possessiveness - shown by racists through history.
Sorry to use the "r" word - i know that that isn't kosher (uh, halal?) in right wing political correctness circles - but it's really the only thing that comes to mind when you throw around phrases like "the muslims who raped and continue to rape young white girls".

Seriously - take it to stormfront. Racist bullshit isn't welcome here.

 

[-=SS=-]

Oh, so british men don't rape? That's a good one.

Where did I say that. You throw around the word racist later in your post but completely overlook the fact that these muslim rape gangs picked specifically on young white girls. I don't even know where to begin here really, it's quite indicative of your perspective to just completely over look this factual series of horrific events, which are on-going by the way, and try to throw the ball back and somehow claim I'm in the wrong for not mentioning the fact that british men don't rape.

There is nothing like this selective and widespread raping of young girls by british men and you damn well know it.

My problem with your attitude towards islam is that it is ill-informed, stereotyped, disingenuous rubbish.

Unfortunately it's not. It is well informed. You just can't accept the truth about Islam and what it stands for because it doesn't fit your worldview of what how you would like the world to be.

It's muslims now, and it's been many other groups of people in the past that have been singled out by demagogues and racists.

Yawn. There are real tangible causes in this scenario. This isn't some vague campaign of hate directed against the Jews for no justified reason, for example. This is not based on blind hatred or racism as you insinuate. Terrorist acts, raping, failed integration, anti-semitsm, homophobia, there is a long list of failures under the name of Islam. This is nothing like past history at all, you can't use that as an excuse for non-action.

I'd love to see you showing concern for women's rights more often, but interestingly you only seem to talk about rape when blaming it on muslims.
Of course, it's all about "young white girls", isn't it?

Are you for real? You are aware of the utter incompetence and failure of Islam in regard to its treatment and view on women, right? Islam has the most backwards mentality when it comes to women out of any of the major religions or cultures.

Women won their rights in the West decades ago. It is a total non-issue now except in the minds of young impressionable college aged feminists. There isn't much to say on that, though plenty to say on the very real failures of feminism itself. I will be responding on this very topic in another existing thread here soon.

Racist bullshit isn't welcome here.

Nothing I've said is racist. Nice try though. The last resort is to pull that card and shut down debate. Not going to work anymore because that card has been over played to the point of meaninglessness now. Again, nice try.

 

[GaryGlisten]

[video]https://youtu.be/_gy7lPSb9Rg?t=23m23s[/video]

 

[alasdairm]

Your whole attitude towards these things makes me believe you are weak people.

that is an opinion to which you are entitled but i disagree.

alasdair

 

[swilow]

We are all vulnerable to terrorism, because that's how it works. Undermining peoples' sense of security.
But that's also why we shouldn't yield to it, and allow our governments and law enforcement to erode our human rights.

Exactly. We should not change the values we have fought to uphold because a tiny subset of the Muslim community are jihadist. That is a victory for terrorists.

I've proposed a couple of ideas already in this thread. But I'll throw out another. We need to vet all migrants coming from the ME or African nations. We should have been doing that anyway really.

I don't understand the hysteria regarding Trumps travel ban decision. This is a serious issue that requires decisive action and that seems like a good sensible first step. Some people may lose out, but tough shit. Again why should the citizens care.. this isn't an arbitrary call or unjustified action.. it is a proportionate response to a very real threat.

I agree in part. Immigrants do need to be vetted- but this is not always possible. If someone is fleeing a country in upheaval, it seems improbable that they will have documentation. In this situation, what do you do? We have the concept of innocent until proven guilty. IMO, this can be extended to immigrants with some comfort, as most of the recent terrorist attacks have been perpetrated by 'homegrown' jihadis. Given that most immigrants are not terrorists- the vast, vast overwhelming majority- I think you can allow people into your country without too much fear.

I mean, the Manchester bomber was born in Manchester- so stopping immigration would not have stopped this. But, stopping immigration is a great way to further push people to radicalism.

This situation is no-win. There is no solution that can guarantee the Islamic terrorism will stop.

I would suggest that assisting in the actual homelands, the places of origin, of these immmigrants may be effective. You are unlikely to flee a country that is safe. But, again, I do not know how to do this outside of using military force; which, in the case of Syria, is probably the only option.

You can't keep deferring the problem because any potential solution offered offends your delicate sensibilities.

People are too soft and are acting like children.

As I've said countless times, giving in to the innate racial bias that all humans exhibit is NOT powerful or manly or strong. It is easy as piss. Anyone can do that. Using reason to overcome this innate bias takes courage and strength. Basically, you guys keep telling us we are weak, but I honestly think you need to look in a mirror and see reality.

Only allow other Europeans to immigrate. And of course no messing around in the middle east.

Your suggested restriction is absurd and racist and I do not want a world like that. When people need help, give it to them regardless of their colour or origin. We are all humans, all shitcunts. I don' know, I don't feel much of a connection with most people, but I believe in trying to help people who ask for it, no matter how difficult it is.

As I alluded to in my last PM to you, some places are even having problems with migrants defecating in places they shouldn't be. In showers, in the streets, etc. We don't need that!

Yeah, that's pretty disgusting. Meaningless though- I've known of white people- friends of mine- who have taken a shit in public. Its antisocial and pretty fucking horrible, but doesn't mean anything. I don't believe that most immigrants are doing this; it is not widespread.

Logically, you cannot use isolated incidents to condemn an entire group of people. It simply doesn't work. Most Muslim immigrants are not doing these things.

 

[Soso78]

This has got fuck all to do with immigrants. My opinion on muslims doesn't change because of terror attacks.
My best pals are still Muslim regardless of how many bombs go off, he's intelligent enough to know I'm not dropping bombs in Syria or Iraq and I know hes not bombing anyone here. I judge people on their actions.

All my comments in this thread have been directed at terror suspects not muslims.

 

[swilow]

^Well, you did talk about jihadists (by definition they must be Muslim).and deporting people (by definition these will be immigrants). It seemed like you were talking about these things you're now saying you didn't.

The solution to this needs to come in the form of education and deradicalisation and it does need to come from Islamic imman and elders And, I daresay, better attempts by the 'native' community to welcome and integrate Muslim immigrants. You're probably less likely to blow up innocents if you have a decent standing in society.

 

[Soso78]

My point is I don't hold all muslims responsible.

Jihadis in the uk should be locked up or if possible deported but because they are jihadis not because they are Muslim.

I don't think a warm welcome will help reduce terror attacks, like you say this guy was born in uk and still did this.

 

[swilow]

.
I don't think a warm welcome will help reduce terror attacks, like you say this guy was born in uk and still did this.

True, but perhaps a more integrated community would help. Of course, that is up to both the 'native' and migrating peoples.

I would say that any mosque preaching jihad should be shut down, however I would be concerned that this could get out of hand and inadvertently galvanise any nascent jihadis.

People returning from specific countries, like Libya, need to be watched but I think this could also end up oppressing the wrong people and creating future radicals.

I dunno, I can't really see an adequate solution to islamic terrorism.

 

[-=SS=-]

I agree in part. Immigrants do need to be vetted- but this is not always possible. If someone is fleeing a country in upheaval, it seems improbable that they will have documentation. In this situation, what do you do? We have the concept of innocent until proven guilty. IMO, this can be extended to immigrants with some comfort, as most of the recent terrorist attacks have been perpetrated by 'homegrown' jihadis. Given that most immigrants are not terrorists- the vast, vast overwhelming majority- I think you can allow people into your country without too much fear.

Innocent until proven guilty is applicable to subjects or citizens of the nation, not to people outside that realm of jurisdiction.. our laws apply to our citizens and within our jurisdiction. People coming in from outside territories, with the exception of tourists who essentially become temporary subjects whilst here, are not automatically equal with those who have been born and raised within our borders.

This is the inflexible approach again. In an ideal world we could be happy with limited or no screening, but not when there is an actual threat. Surely you must understand this point? Yes it may make life more difficult for those wishing to come here, but so what.. their 'right' to come here is nowhere near the actual right of citizens actually living here to be protected from harm.. we pay our government taxes and give them power to protect us, it's one of their top priorities.

I mean, the Manchester bomber was born in Manchester- so stopping immigration would not have stopped this. But, stopping immigration is a great way to further push people to radicalism.

That is slightly disingenuous Swillow - his parents were Libyan migrants, so actually it may have done in this instance. Secondly, saying if we get tougher on immigration will cause more radicalism.. so wait, if we take proactive measures then we are to be blamed for the failings of those who decide they want to cause us physical harm because they disagree with our system? You're basically apologizing for their immoral behaviour in advance whilst simultaneously blaming us for it, which is nonsense.

If they got more radical then that is their fault, not ours.

As I've said countless times, giving in to the innate racial bias that all humans exhibit is NOT powerful or manly or strong. It is easy as piss. Anyone can do that. Using reason to overcome this innate bias takes courage and strength. Basically, you guys keep telling us we are weak, but I honestly think you need to look in a mirror and see reality.

Yeah, and what if racial bias is a natural tendency. People predominantly prefer to be with their own kind, the observational evidence clearly indicates this and there is nothing wrong with that behaviour at all! Your intellectual reasoning on this issue does not supersede innate biological programming - despite how you'd like things to be, they aren't.. you need to adjust to that fact of reality, not me adjusting to your belief on what the world should be.

Denying what we are and failing to embrace that is weakness. It's self-hatred and masochistic tendencies that you have willingly accepted in your own personal journey through academia, through modern culture and other forms of programming. Other nations and cultures do not have this issue, they embrace who they are and are happier for it. The West has allowed itself to be poisoned internally by academics and sociologists who don't know what the fuck they're talking about.

 

[-=SS=-]

True, but perhaps a more integrated community would help. Of course, that is up to both the 'native' and migrating peoples.

No amount of funding or pressure on natives is going to create more integration when these communities don't want to integrate in the first place. We've been waiting for years and its just not happening, and it is specific to this particular community.

They don't want to integrate because at the end of the day they don't truely care about this country. They will happily leech from it with a pleasant smile, but Islam is top for them.. they just do not truely share our cultural value system.

Listen to the Douglas Murray talk I posted earlier Swillow, and then come back to these points again.