Benzos lorazepam (Ativan) seems much 'harder to handle' than other benzos

[4DQSAR]

@Syntherize - Good point well made. around here we have a hospital ward where alcoholics who pass out in public are sent to. In essence all the hospital does is to feed them Librium until their hand's stop shaking, give them something akin to Stoss therapy (huge doses of IV vitamins), feed them up and after 24 hours of observation, push them out of the door.

It's always sad to watch someone you care for drink themselves to death. Upsetting when it's someone young enough to be your own child. MGTG did just that and Tom was just a kid. We got him a TV, bought him food, took him to the cinema and other places where alcohol wasn't available & ensured he always had someone to phone 24/7 - but all we know is that on one Friday evening he bought 1.5L of cheap whiskey, drank the lot in a few hours and his body wasn't discovered until the following week. I believe it took a couple of white-lies to get the Police to perform a welfare check. His GF was in bits. Both were lovely people. I mean two of the nicest people it's ever been my privilage to know.

For many years there was a [P] benzodiazepine only used in Spain (bentazepam/Tiadiona™), similarly in Russia phenazapam (феназепама™) and in India eitzolam (Etilaam™) and from what I can gather, in each case the idea was that a pharmacist could suggest them for the treatment of alcoholism. I don't think for a moment that an inebirated person would ever be served. It seemed more like a concerned family member or friend could buy them on the basis that they wouldn't provide the patient more the stated dose. Certainly a friend who visited Spain related how they had to have the medicaton explained to them, provide ID and so on - I assume this was intended to prevent smurfing. A bit like how Valoid™ (cyclizine) was sold in the UK.

Now, I've never tasted phenazepam but I suspect onset is quite slow and it isn't much fun. The other two I have tasted and really cannot imagine anyone thinking them 'fun'. Again, can's speak for phenazepam but the other two both have a plateau dose i.e. taking more may increase duration but will not subjectively be 'stronger'.

In a better world clobazam would become a [P] medication. It's an odd one. Uniquely it's a 1,5-benzodiazepine; all the others are 1,4-benzodiazepines. So by defintion clobazam cannot bind to the α1 or α5 subunits. The former subunit being the target of the Z-drugs, both subunits being targetted by alcohol i.e. clobazam is no 'fun' at all if alcohol-like intoxication is the goal. But far more importantly, alcohol doesn't 'amplify' it's effects AND clobazam demonstrates a plateau at 40mg/day which is 20mg [BID] i.e. even if someone ate a whole box, it may sedate for many days but will not render them unconscious.

The LD50 of clobazam has been measured as 100mg/kg in canine models and 6,000mg/kg in rodent models. However you look at it, it's the safest benzodiazepine in use. In a study of patients with refractive epilepsy, so called 'supertheraputic' doses of clobazam were prescribed and from every metric, the patients prescribed 160mg/day were no more sedated/disoriented or liable to physical side-effects than the patent prescribed 40mg/day. The cohort size was 241 patients i.e. 80 were given a placebo, 80 were given the official maximum dose of 40mg/day and 81 given 160mg/day.

It's even the case that neither clobazam nor any 1,5-benzodiazepine would be attractive targets for someone developing novel RCs. It seems no amount of complex modification produces a compound much more potent than clobazam itself. I belive CP-1414S is no more potent than clobazam - it's simply more sedating, but more akin to how first-generation antihistamines sedate i.e. in no way pleasent.

 

[notsmokeymcpot42088]

ativan never hit hard for me. I do remember tales of it being the only benzo you could hallucinate off of --- I do not know if there is any truth to this however

*edit* ^ I can vouch for phenazepam not being much fun and I think that is a good system to have. Of course as americans we try and import both as of course we do... but that could be fixed if we had the same system.

I can also vouch for how much it sucks to watch someone young drink themselves to death ... lost a close friend at 34. Very talented musician but had a very crazy life that I am sure drove him to drink..

 

[Jnowhere]

I have a fair bit of experience with a variety of benzos. Fortunately, I have only become dependent once (and the WDs from that scared me so much I never allowed myself to get in that deep again).

Anyway, this post concerns some experiences I have had (both in recent weeks and also when taken years ago) with lorazepam. I have a bottle of 2.5mg Ativan tablets. I also have a bottle of Pfizer (alprazolam) Xanax, which means I've got a convenient point of comparison.

To get straight to the point, I have found the lorazepam to be 'tricky' to use. Generally, half of a 2.5mg tablet provides a reduction in anxiety and some useful sedation at bed time. However, a full 2.5mg tablet can cause significant balance issues and blackouts. This is not consistent (if it was, I woudn't keep taking a full tablet). Sometimes a full tablet just feels like more of the same effect as a half tablet, as you might expect. However, other times it leads to symptoms of minor benzo OD, with things like balance impairment which is sudden and strong enough to send me head first into closets, door frames, or backwards into ... whatever is behind me.

Additionally, a full tablet at night before bedtime often leads to "morning surprises" such as a full plate of food prepared nicely and then left on the kitchen floor, untouched. Or food and other consumables "disappearing", where I've presumably taken them in a blackout. I've also built up a collection of some nasty looking bruises, mostly on my limbs, presumably from doing the Ativan waltz and then having no memory of it.

At this point, some readers are probably thinking "yeah dipshit, you're taking too much than you can handle, so just stick to the half tablet, you dumbass, stupid cunt, piece of shit, I'll fucking kill you..." ahem

However, I'm somewhat familiar with benzos and have over the years built up some idea of my tolerance and reaction to certain types of benzos. As mentioned I also currently have a bottle of 2mg Xanax bars (real ones), and these I can consistently take 4 -6mg without any issues. Over many years, I've taken tonnes of diazepam, etizolam, temazepam in the past without issues, and also navigated moderate doses of some heavier benzos like flubromazepam, bromazolam, phenazepam, phenazolam, and others without waking up naked in a jail cell (or any issues, really - except for one time where I woke up with a dodgy haircut I had no memory of getting).

I understand that benzos can be highly unpredictable and it would be foolish to think I'd "mastered" them or could predict the outcome of dosing every time. But I am just wondering if anyone can relate to my situation specifically with lorazepam or perhaps know one of its particular mechanisms of action which might be causing these unexpected midnight food making (and abandoning) incidents, and crashing into walls and furniture like a gridiron player, from what seems to be a very standard dose (2.5mg - a single tablet).

"Lo-raz-e-PAM!
Baby don't hurt me,
Don't hurt me,
No more"

I guess you are not in America. I used 2mg lorazepam 3x a day for years and no problems and even after losing my temper and going into a rage I took about 4 or so 2mg Ativan tablets and they only mild calmed me down.


You have experience with benzos, I find it very odd that only 2.5mg would do anything but keep you emotional sort of numb,( as in no aniety).

I like Diazepam better. Weaker, but very relaxing. Or it was.

I find it odd that you would have that kind of reation if you can handle a fair amount of xanax.


I never, even at first, had any issues with the types of things you say they do. Yeah, only 2mg ones here but even 2x2mg at first never made do anything like that. That was on top of two strong opiods( all prescribed)
Morphine and oxycodone.

Are you only on just taking one? Because it should at the most sedate you. I had 3 family members also prescribed it and well they, at least 2 were using more than you are and non of that happened.

What else are you taking? Also are you mixing it with xanax?


I personally felt gypted, and that 2mg was not enough, even when naive to benzos and opiods( sort of for the opiods)

Are you drinking with them? They are best on an empty stomach and even for a while I drank a bit while on them and never had an issue.


So, what else do take with them? I also opiods and mixed with alcohol a few times and nothing like that happened.

Is this just a case of ones own bodily chemistry reaction being different?

 

[Dextro .45]

ativan never hit hard for me. I do remember tales of it being the only benzo you could hallucinate off of --- I do not know if there is any truth to this however

*edit* ^ I can vouch for phenazepam not being much fun and I think that is a good system to have. Of course as americans we try and import both as of course we do... but that could be fixed if we had the same system.

I can also vouch for how much it sucks to watch someone young drink themselves to death ... lost a close friend at 34. Very talented musician but had a very crazy life that I am sure drove him to drink..

How much did u take? ….did u eat prior…..any other substances? Little coke? Some factors can alter effects

After accurately gauging its potency, I must say its impressive.

I just took 2mg Lorazepam on a fasted state, 2 weeks no sedatives, and it hit hard, but manageable….I would take 4mg of Lorazepam MAX and that might be too much…..in 35min everything hit instantly, nicely. 0.5mg & 1mg tab are common…..so I took Ativan 2mg and Wow……for 240lbs 6’ empty stomach & baseline. I give Lorazepam an A

I have Alprazolam 0.5mg tablets coming Monday and more Lorazepam ha ha ha

I honestly wouldn’t take more than 4mg …..I’d be Rocked !

I’m going to take 1mg of Ativan and 1.5mg of Xanax together and see those effects lol. The Alprazolam will add a pleasant mood-lift on top of Lorazepams tranquilizer dart like effects l …then the rest I’ll hoard away…..ya, until I bar out and it’s all gone lol. Fuuuuuk

 

[Jnowhere]

Really you got hit hard by one 2mg Ativan. Huh. I never hardly even noticed them. I Got off them and onto 10mg Valiums 3 x a day. My plan was to quit using benzos but that was almost 3 years ago, opps.

I always took them on an empty stomach. I admit that when I was first prescibed benzos when there there was a whole lotta bad things going on in my life which was supposed to over.( I just passed the 1 year mark doctors had given me to live, opps the doctors were wrong). I didn't even really quit drinking till after being put on Ativan. At least for a while. Not really my choice,lol.


I was also on Morphine and Oxycodone but I didn't die and I still am on benzos which kinda sucks but valium I suppose might still relax me.

I am amazed because most have said Ativan( lorazepam ) is rather mediocre.

I have never mixed benzos except maybe, valium and a leftover Ativan and well after years I got what expected, basically nothing. On an empty stomach.

I know of one or two people who switched to k-pins or clonazepam( mis?) and said it was the best.


But then again they tend to become benzo, lifers and I actually intend on getting off Valium. It just has been scary, being on even a relatively moderate dose for so long.


Hopefully the Xanax is real. I have read stories of fake shit being passed off as Xanax. Well good luck, bro and be safe.

Sincerely
J

 

[notsmokeymcpot42088]

How much did u take? ….did u eat prior…..any other substances? Little coke? Some factors can alter effects

1 mg usually. No other drugs - well pot. But that was the first benzo I was ever took actually. (Was like 13-14). Lol once cuz hockey practice was at like midnight to 1 AM and school was 7 am --- and another time cuz I was trippin balls and had to get to school and just broke down and was honest about it. Than a handful of times after that but not really much since I got ahold of about any other benzo.

Maybe it is just me -- something strange may be going on with my system regarding benzos. I remember just about being a damn case study for awhile there.

All you guys said go directly to the hospital youll never survive blah blah blah --- scared the shit out of me. Thank you for that.

I did end up fine and never went to no damn hospital as that felt like sure death.....but the scare is appreciated anyways.

After accurately gauging its potency, I must say its impressive.

I just took 2mg Lorazepam on a fasted state, 2 weeks no sedatives, and

it hit hard, but manageable….I would take 4mg of Lorazepam MAX and that might be too much…..

How much xanax do yo take max? I always figured lorazepam at about 1/2 potency.

in 35min everything hit instantly, nicely. 0.5mg & 1mg tab are common…..so I took Ativan 2mg and Wow……for 240lbs 6’ empty stomach & baseline. I give Lorazepam an A

I have Alprazolam 0.5mg tablets coming Monday and more Lorazepam ha ha ha

I honestly wouldn’t take more than 4mg …..I’d be Rocked !

Is lorazepam still prescribed sublingually? I remember I thought that was neat, only drug (at the time, way before sub) that had 'melt under tongue' on the bottle that I ever saw.

I’m going to take 1mg of Ativan and 1.5mg of Xanax together and see those effects lol. The Alprazolam will add a pleasant mood-lift on top of Lorazepams tranquilizer dart like effects l …then the rest I’ll hoard away…..ya, until I bar out and it’s all gone lol. Fuuuuuk

Hope you enjoyed your evening! Perhaps incomplete cross tolerance is what *Why* is happening with the lorazepam hitting harder.

I should prolly switch my benzo up but I dont think my shrink would love me being concerned about getting a little more out of an equivalent dose of something else lol

PS - Does lorazolam exist? Sounds like a banger based on what (NOTHING) I know

PPS - Jnowho has a decent point, about half (if not more havent checked lately) of the xanax being sold on the street is bromazolam. Which by almost all accounts is not as 'good' as alp but about equipotent.

 

[notsmokeymcpot42088]

@Syntherize -

The LD50 of clobazam has been measured as 100mg/kg in canine models and 6,000mg/kg in rodent models.

This matters -- the LD50 I always get is in mice. How do you find canine LD50's!? and are they generally more accurate if so?

Not that I want to approach the LD50 of anything but I had a friend come over talking about how they were thinking about doing that thing we dont talk about by taking a bottle of benzos --- knowing the person and that was not what they really wanted I told them to look up the LD50 of they benzo and it was a similar # ---- happened again recently on BL (or maybe there was a different reason someone asked) different benzo, both in thousands of mgs/kg IN MICE.

Nitrazepam is the benzo that people can feasibly overdose and die on correct? By feasibly I mean like under 100 pills of the largest size. (just so there is some standard for ya)

However you look at it, it's the safest benzodiazepine in use. In a study of patients with refractive epilepsy, so called 'supertheraputic' doses of clobazam were prescribed and from every metric, the patients prescribed 160mg/day were no more sedated/disoriented or liable to physical side-effects than the patent prescribed 40mg/day. The cohort size was 241 patients i.e. 80 were given a placebo, 80 were given the official maximum dose of 40mg/day and 81 given 160mg/day.

It's even the case that neither clobazam nor any 1,5-benzodiazepine would be attractive targets for someone developing novel RCs. It seems no amount of complex modification produces a compound much more potent than clobazam itself. I belive CP-1414S is no more potent than clobazam - it's simply more sedating, but more akin to how first-generation antihistamines sedate i.e. in no way pleasent.

Addiction potential aside, in my humble opinion 1.4 benzos are some of the safest drugs prescribed. I do love that you are looking for ways to make them safer for those damn supertheraputic users though!

PS - Dont take 100 benzos, you MAY DIE. You DEFINITELY will not enjoy it any more than 5.

 

[BadBoy377]

This matters -- the LD50 I always get is in mice. How do you find canine LD50's!? and are they generally more accurate if so?

Not that I want to approach the LD50 of anything but I had a friend come over talking about how they were thinking about doing that thing we dont talk about by taking a bottle of benzos --- knowing the person and that was not what they really wanted I told them to look up the LD50 of they benzo and it was a similar # ---- happened again recently on BL (or maybe there was a different reason someone asked) different benzo, both in thousands of mgs/kg IN MICE.

Nitrazepam is the benzo that people can feasibly overdose and die on correct? By feasibly I mean like under 100 pills of the largest size. (just so there is some standard for ya)



Addiction potential aside, in my humble opinion 1.4 benzos are some of the safest drugs prescribed. I do love that you are looking for ways to make them safer for those damn supertheraputic users though!

PS - Dont take 100 benzos, you MAY DIE. You DEFINITELY will not enjoy it any more than 5.

What's your favourite benzo?

 

[4DQSAR]

It seems all of the nitrobenzodiazepines are more toxic than the others. When designing a novel benzodiazepine (pyrazolam) one thing that was looked into was any examples of fatal overdoses involving benzodiazepines alone. We happened upon the Swedish government's data on suicide and nitrazepam, nimetazepam and flunitrazepam were all leading methods with a few cases involving clonazepam. The important bit being that in over 70% of cases, no other drug was found in body fluids.

Now we couldn't get the appropriate data to know if clonazepam was less toxic or if it was simply prescribed less frequently but what struck us was that flunitrazepam being far more potent than nitrazepam should in theory have made it safer because the amount prescribed and thus the amount imbibed would be much lower. But the opposite was true.

There are two toxic metabolites of nitrobenzodiazepines AND all nitrobenzodiazepines increase extracellular serotonin levels but which (if any) of these is responsible for the fatalities isn't clear.

But what we do know is that every nitrobenzodiazepine used medically is potentially fatal in overdose in the absence of other drugs.

There are quite regularly case studies of individuals who have consumed frankly insane amounts of diazepam (20 GRAMS in one case) and the important bit it that all survived. I'm sure there are examples of people passing out and dying from exposure, drowning, falls and so on but unless consumed with other drugs, they are incredibly safe. Certainly a 28 day supply of them would not provide a dose that could be fatal.

Sadly, the trials with 'supertheraputic' doses of clobazam didn't last long enough to test if physical dependence became an issue. Yes, it's still entirely possible to develop physical dependence to clobazam but from limited experimentation, it does seem that above the plateau, increasing the dose does not increase physical dependence. Clobazam is generally listed as being around half the potency of diazepam so assuming a person takes the maximum dose i.e. 20mg [BID], that's akin to 20mg of diazepam/day. Nasty, but the extreme half-life of clobazam (36-42 hours) and that of it's active metabolite norclobazam (71-82 hours) will at least mean that any reduction is easier than with short-acting benzodiazepines.

It just strikes me that of all the benzodiazepines, clobazam is the most benign by a large margin. Being no fun, it seems unlikely someone would continue to take them for long enough for physical dependence to become an issue as the anxiolytic activity only lasts about four weeks and of course taking more won't alter that fact.

We DID design a frustrated α1 ligand to test if a nitrobenzodiazepine that ONLY increased extracellular serotonin was possible. It was and it's action was nigh on identical to unrelated compounds that increased extracellular serotonin. None of us was keen to discover what 'supertheraputic' doses might do but we did wonder if it might be used as a novel antidepressant - one that simply bridged the gap between a patient presenting with unipolar depression and a typical antidepressant actually working i.e. only to be prescribed for upto 28 days. Not a profitable business model, but it could have been of value.

I look back and realize that as a rule benzodiazepines really are not much fun when consumed alone. When young we would mix dexedrine and diazepam (a sidewinder) which initially makes the user alert but the longer duration of the diazepam means that as time goes on, the subjective effects change from being stimulating to being sedating. Never more than two dexedrine and two blues - we were still quite conservative.

 

[notsmokeymcpot42088]

What's your favourite benzo?

Clonazolam. But flubromazolam was twice as potent and almost as euphoric --- and at the time the same price.

passing out and dying from exposure, wandering into the road etc I dont consider an overdose as much as a cautionary tale of why not to leave the house on too many benzos --- Kind of like acid / any pyschedelic (almost) a true OD is pretty far fetched but dying while one it....maybe less so depending on you

I remember stories of people drowning in PUDDLES on qualudes -- Scare tactic or something you have heard of / consider a possibility?

 

[4DQSAR]

Methaqualone was an odd one. Before MDMA became popular, ER clinicians referred to Quaaludes as 'disco biscuits' and from what I've read, taken to excess, it lowers the seizure threshold so anywhere with lights, noise and people could trigger a seizure.

In fact the reason why the far more potent dimethaqualone and nitromethaqualone were never used medically was because with the increased potency (para substitution) went an increased tendency to cause seizures. Last year one brave BLer carefully tested dimethaqualone and noted that while 14mg was the optimal dose for them, 24mg was enough for tremors and other signs of impending seizure to become apparent. A TI of ONE is obviously far, far too small.

So I suspect that in sufficient doses, methaqualone could kill BUT a person with tolerance could consume quite a few. The problem is, if methaqualone is anything like the barbituates, a person can become tolerant to the sedative/hypnotic effects BUT not tolerant to the toxic side-effects.

I'm a little surprised that no dubious vendors in the US have offered kavain (found naturally in the Kava plant). If they can get away with claiming that the 7OHM they sell is extracted rather than synthesized, why not kavain?

Interesting to note that clonazolam is likely to share the unusual property of being a frustrated α1 ligand and would explain the lower potency and the euphoria. It isn't like researchers in the 1960s and 1970s didn't test every single homologe of the benzodiazepines even going to quite ridiculous lengths to get around active-patents but although we have no records of any human trials (and why I support www.alltrials.net), the fact that only ONE triazolo benzodiazepine found medical utility might hint at deficiencies noted in the others.

Of course, unless you pay for instrumental analysis, it's another 'mystery powder game' and it would not surprise me one bit if vendors estimated the effects of a more synthetically demanding example by mixing two or more cheaper examples.

Mastering that triazolo-ring formation took a lot of work. Worth it because we really did try to find the LEAST toxic example. I have yet to hear of a fatality in which pyrazolam alone was responsible.

 

[Dextro .45]

Really you got hit hard by one 2mg Ativan. Huh. I never hardly even noticed them. I Got off them and onto 10mg Valiums 3 x a day. My plan was to quit using benzos but that was almost 3 years ago, opps.

I always took them on an empty stomach. I admit that when I was first prescibed benzos when there there was a whole lotta bad things going on in my life which was supposed to over.( I just passed the 1 year mark doctors had given me to live, opps the doctors were wrong). I didn't even really quit drinking till after being put on Ativan. At least for a while. Not really my choice,lol.


I was also on Morphine and Oxycodone but I didn't die and I still am on benzos which kinda sucks but valium I suppose might still relax me.

I am amazed because most have said Ativan( lorazepam ) is rather mediocre.

I have never mixed benzos except maybe, valium and a leftover Ativan and well after years I got what expected, basically nothing. On an empty stomach.

I know of one or two people who switched to k-pins or clonazepam( mis?) and said it was the best.


But then again they tend to become benzo, lifers and I actually intend on getting off Valium. It just has been scary, being on even a relatively moderate dose for so long.


Hopefully the Xanax is real. I have read stories of fake shit being passed off as Xanax. Well good luck, bro and be safe.

Sincerely
J

Well, shucks…..how about that then lol

I’m on Methadone 100-125mg daily, Ritalin 50-70mg IR daily…..and before were moderately doses of benzodiazepines like Avizafone (Pro-Diazepam) IM administered 60-80mg = 30-40mg Valium injection but because it’s a water soluble pro drug, it reaches much higher concentrations than diazepam equivalent, hits hard & fast

But when I took this Lorazepam 2mg tablets I was Benzo free for 14 days…..and hadn’t eaten yet, I wanted a true baseline to gauge its effects….and Ya man, 35min fast onset, hit me all at once…..a proper benzodiazepine dose

I was ok, obviously….but I wouldn’t take 4mg of Ativan …..2mg touched me Nicely

My Alprazolam is coming tomorrow so I’ll most likely try 1mg of Ativan (longer lasting) and 1.5mg of Xanax (maybe 2) short acting anxiolytic with antidepressant/ mood-boosting effects ….and see how this combo goes.

I’ve had plenty of Diazepam 10mg tablets which are my favourite Benzo

Buy Ya, Ativan 2mg is a proper anxiolytic benzo

Clonazepam (Klonopin) 0.5mg peach tablets I had were more potent anticonvulsant….Lorazepam better anxiolytic, muscle relaxant, sedative, etc

Valium & Xanax would be my choice plus Pregabalin

 

[AlwaysHasBeen]

I have a fair bit of experience with a variety of benzos. Fortunately, I have only become dependent once (and the WDs from that scared me so much I never allowed myself to get in that deep again).

Anyway, this post concerns some experiences I have had (both in recent weeks and also when taken years ago) with lorazepam. I have a bottle of 2.5mg Ativan tablets. I also have a bottle of Pfizer (alprazolam) Xanax, which means I've got a convenient point of comparison.

To get straight to the point, I have found the lorazepam to be 'tricky' to use. Generally, half of a 2.5mg tablet provides a reduction in anxiety and some useful sedation at bed time. However, a full 2.5mg tablet can cause significant balance issues and blackouts. This is not consistent (if it was, I woudn't keep taking a full tablet). Sometimes a full tablet just feels like more of the same effect as a half tablet, as you might expect. However, other times it leads to symptoms of minor benzo OD, with things like balance impairment which is sudden and strong enough to send me head first into closets, door frames, or backwards into ... whatever is behind me.

Additionally, a full tablet at night before bedtime often leads to "morning surprises" such as a full plate of food prepared nicely and then left on the kitchen floor, untouched. Or food and other consumables "disappearing", where I've presumably taken them in a blackout. I've also built up a collection of some nasty looking bruises, mostly on my limbs, presumably from doing the Ativan waltz and then having no memory of it.

At this point, some readers are probably thinking "yeah dipshit, you're taking too much than you can handle, so just stick to the half tablet, you dumbass, stupid cunt, piece of shit, I'll fucking kill you..." ahem

However, I'm somewhat familiar with benzos and have over the years built up some idea of my tolerance and reaction to certain types of benzos. As mentioned I also currently have a bottle of 2mg Xanax bars (real ones), and these I can consistently take 4 -6mg without any issues. Over many years, I've taken tonnes of diazepam, etizolam, temazepam in the past without issues, and also navigated moderate doses of some heavier benzos like flubromazepam, bromazolam, phenazepam, phenazolam, and others without waking up naked in a jail cell (or any issues, really - except for one time where I woke up with a dodgy haircut I had no memory of getting).

I understand that benzos can be highly unpredictable and it would be foolish to think I'd "mastered" them or could predict the outcome of dosing every time. But I am just wondering if anyone can relate to my situation specifically with lorazepam or perhaps know one of its particular mechanisms of action which might be causing these unexpected midnight food making (and abandoning) incidents, and crashing into walls and furniture like a gridiron player, from what seems to be a very standard dose (2.5mg - a single tablet).

"Lo-raz-e-PAM!
Baby don't hurt me,
Don't hurt me,
No more"

Honestly, if 2.5 mgs of a benzo is making you blackout wasted, making you fall over into walls and damage yourself, the LAST THING you should be taking is this drug.

 

[4DQSAR]

moderately doses of benzodiazepines like Avizafone (Pro-Diazepam) IM administered 60-80mg = 30-40mg Valium injection but because it’s a water soluble pro drug, it reaches much higher concentrations than diazepam equivalent, hits hard & fast

Moderate?

The MW of Pro-Diazepam is 430.93 and that of diazepam is 284.74. Now given that the former is deprotected and dehydration converts it to the latter in a few minutes (mean 4.2) means the conversion is almost exactly x0.66 so more like 40-53mg which is a LOT.

If memory serves, it's non-specific blood enzymes that are responsible for the hydrolysis of the lysine and obviously it has to be fast as it was developed to treat ogranophosphate poisoning where time matters. So I think it's still diazepam that crosses the BBB.

I admit, I'm somewhat surprised that 2.5mg of lorazepam did anything notable although to be fair, benzodiazepines with a '2 substitution don't appear to be completely cross-tolerant with those lacking the modification.

It does seem that with benzodiazepines, YMMVAL in that some people don't note any effect from clonazepam or lorazepam but DO feel diazepam.

I'm pretty sure diazepam was the benzodiazepine with the largest theraputic index - it's when a person is physically dependent on large doses but cannot obtain more where it's potentially fatal.

 

[Halif2]

I find it odd that you would have that kind of reation if you can handle a fair amount of xanax.

Yeah, me too! That's why I made this thread. I just seem to have really strange and unpredictable reactions to therapeutic doses of lorazepam. I have actually taken a great number of benzos over the years, and lorazepam was the only one that gave me symptoms of having taken too much without taking more than one 2.5mg tablet. I did have a bottle of Xanax at the same time as I had the Ativan, but I did not mix them. I would take one or the other on any given day.

Honestly, if 2.5 mgs of a benzo is making you blackout wasted, making you fall over into walls and damage yourself, the LAST THING you should be taking is this drug.

No more lorazepam for me. Luckily, there are loads more choices of benzo out there so it's no issue for me to just never take an Ativan again. I was just curious to know if anyone else had had these strange effects from lorazepam despite tolerating other benzos without problems.

Alprazolam is great, effective, and predictable. Diazepam, temazepam, etizolam are all great too. Clonazepam is fine and normal in its effect, but I personally don't enjoy it.

Pyrazolam was great. Bromazolam is fine. Phenazolam is good (but demands respect). Same thing with phenazepam. Oxazepam I was quite fond of.

And lucky last, my favourite benzo of all time was flubromazepam.

When it comes to benzos, the maxim "Your mileage may vary" is probably the only constant.

 

[notsmokeymcpot42088]

Methaqualone was an odd one. Before MDMA became popular, ER clinicians referred to Quaaludes as 'disco biscuits' and from what I've read, taken to excess, it lowers the seizure threshold so anywhere with lights, noise and people could trigger a seizure.

In fact the reason why the far more potent dimethaqualone and nitromethaqualone were never used medically was because with the increased potency (para substitution) went an increased tendency to cause seizures. Last year one brave BLer carefully tested dimethaqualone and noted that while 14mg was the optimal dose for them, 24mg was enough for tremors and other signs of impending seizure to become apparent. A TI of ONE is obviously far, far too small.

So I suspect that in sufficient doses, methaqualone could kill BUT a person with tolerance could consume quite a few. The problem is, if methaqualone is anything like the barbituates, a person can become tolerant to the sedative/hypnotic effects BUT not tolerant to the toxic side-effects.

Okay I am going go guess scare tactic -- unless someone had a seizure in a puddle... which more death by misadventure. Still anything that leads to seizures I am staying the hell away from.

Speaking of MDMA, could you tell me a bedtime story about the theoretical MDMA'esque molecule with sedative properties again! But seriously I am VERY interested in that one. (who wouldnt be I suppose)

I'm a little surprised that no dubious vendors in the US have offered kavain (found naturally in the Kava plant). If they can get away with claiming that the 7OHM they sell is extracted rather than synthesized, why not kavain?

Interesting to note that clonazolam is likely to share the unusual property of being a frustrated α1 ligand and would explain the lower potency and the euphoria. It isn't like researchers in the 1960s and 1970s didn't test every single homologe of the benzodiazepines even going to quite ridiculous lengths to get around active-patents but although we have no records of any human trials (and why I support www.alltrials.net), the fact that only ONE triazolo benzodiazepine found medical utility might hint at deficiencies noted in the others.

Interesting. The one being Triazolam I have to presume? Def a top tier benzo in my book. Only had it once though so not like I am well versed. Versed midazolam. *rimshot*

Of course, unless you pay for instrumental analysis, it's another 'mystery powder game' and it would not surprise me one bit if vendors estimated the effects of a more synthetically demanding example by mixing two or more cheaper examples.

Mastering that triazolo-ring formation took a lot of work. Worth it because we really did try to find the LEAST toxic example. I have yet to hear of a fatality in which pyrazolam alone was responsible.

Seems horrible out there right now; i clearly missed the best window of opportunity. I can confirm what I had was clonazolam and flubromazolam, with about 95% confidence. I did not send out for lab reports. Hypothetically they did come with lab reports (which doesn't mean anything I know) and in some cases helped pay for the synth. (Which also means nothing I know) but it did give me some closer access to what was going on. The lab reports did go up and down by about 3-5% and show various inconsistencies which a smart vendor would do anyways..... I am pretty sure though.

Again now days I wouldnt know where to go as everything has changed completely -- the clearnet legal shit seems to be dead. (no im not asking anyone for a vendor/plug - im too tech illit to use crypto anyways)

Yeah, me too! That's why I made this thread. I just seem to have really strange and unpredictable reactions to therapeutic doses of lorazepam. I have actually taken a great number of benzos over the years, and lorazepam was the only one that gave me symptoms of having taken too much without taking more than one 2.5mg tablet. I did have a bottle of Xanax at the same time as I had the Ativan, but I did not mix them. I would take one or the other on any given day.

I was just curious to know if anyone else had had these strange effects from lorazepam despite tolerating other benzos without problems.

Back when BL was much crazier I remember there being a few threads about 'hallucinating' on lorazepam (May still be searchable not sure) but it was usually pretty heroic doses, like 10mg's plus. Im thinking this was around when all the ambien sleepwalking stuff first broke --- than again my memory is what it is

 

[4DQSAR]

Okay I am going go guess scare tactic -- unless someone had a seizure in a puddle... which more death by misadventure.

No - the seizures could kill outright. It's rare but it happened. The problem is that while a coroner can state the amount of a drug found body fluids, there is no way to state after-the-fact what happened. Most were people who had taken large doses and the few more logical researchers did use hair samples to conclude a user was tolerant. So as I said, users became tolerant of the sedative effects but not to the toxic effects, specifically tonic-clonic and complex seizures (from ER reports).

But there certainly were vastly more deaths due to accidents than to toxicity of the medication alone. Mixed with alcohol, it seems some users lost all sense of danger and died in frankly bizarre ways. I suggest it was because most of these deaths were in public (car accidents, falls and even the proverbial drowning in a puddle) so that the media made each one a headline thus it became a VISIBLE problem - since most were under 25, it gained the whole 'their whole life in front of them...' narrative as well.

BUT there clearly YES, there was a scare campaign in some nations.

Fun fact - Lemmon stopped producing Quaaludes due to the constant bad press but because the brand-name had got into the public consciousness, they employed a lawyer to find every headline that used their brand-name and isssued corrections. Over fifty a week!

 

[4DQSAR]

@notsmokeymcpot42088 - I found the thesis of a post-graduent student at Pretoria University and of about 120 samples of Mandrax tablets seized by the police, something like 20 different homologues were identified.

But here is the important bit - not one of those homologues had a para substitution. Dimethaqualone is around three times the potency and nitromethaqualone around five times the potency of plain methaqualone but this seems to demonstrate that those potent but toxic examples simply were not accepted by the market.

So it CAN happen. Users simply can descide not to buy products they know to be dangerous.

 

[notsmokeymcpot42088]

@notsmokeymcpot42088 - I found the thesis of a post-graduent student at Pretoria University and of about 120 samples of Mandrax tablets seized by the police, something like 20 different homologues were identified.

But here is the important bit - not one of those homologues had a para substitution. Dimethaqualone is around three times the potency and nitromethaqualone around five times the potency of plain methaqualone but this seems to demonstrate that those potent but toxic examples simply were not accepted by the market.

So it CAN happen. Users simply can descide not to buy products they know to be dangerous.

Yea I would never buy mandrax considering the whole sordid past with apartheid and all that. Not too surprised as ppl dont seem to know how many mg's are suppose to be in those to begin with. More akin with US "Heroin" than any one pure product.

Of course it can happen --- happens all the damn time.

I would not buy a product I did not trust -- back in the day these people were legit and cheap. Fairly easy to find or I just got lucky --- RC's are RC's and people should accept they are basically guinea pigs and all due dilligence is kind of on the buyers end because ppl will ship anything.

my larger concern was the synthesis resulting in byproducts that were flat illegal -- making me a criminal unknowingly

 

[Dextro .45]

Moderate?

The MW of Pro-Diazepam is 430.93 and that of diazepam is 284.74. Now given that the former is deprotected and dehydration converts it to the latter in a few minutes (mean 4.2) means the conversion is almost exactly x0.66 so more like 40-53mg which is a LOT.

If memory serves, it's non-specific blood enzymes that are responsible for the hydrolysis of the lysine and obviously it has to be fast as it was developed to treat ogranophosphate poisoning where time matters. So I think it's still diazepam that crosses the BBB.

I admit, I'm somewhat surprised that 2.5mg of lorazepam did anything notable although to be fair, benzodiazepines with a '2 substitution don't appear to be completely cross-tolerant with those lacking the modification.

It does seem that with benzodiazepines, YMMVAL in that some people don't note any effect from clonazepam or lorazepam but DO feel diazepam.

I'm pretty sure diazepam was the benzodiazepine with the largest theraputic index - it's when a person is physically dependent on large doses but cannot obtain more where it's potentially fatal.

Avizafone 22.5mg is equivalent to Diazepam 10mg

I administer IM injection about 60-80mg of Avizafone, which is equivalent to Diazepam 30-40mg

For a 240lbs / 6’ tolerant male…..it’s nothing to be concerned about. I consider it a moderate dose. And yes Avizafone is a pro-drug, which requires an enzyme (Trypsin) in your red blood cells to cleave the pro-drug molecules, liberating Lysin, and the drugs API being Diazepam…..exactly the same delivery system as Vyvanse (Lisdexamfetamine) 20mg = 5.9mg d-Amph

IM administration of Avizafone (Pro Diazepam) was nowhere near as pleasurable as oral Lorazepam 2mg, sorry. Only Kern Diazepam 10mg compared

Spanish brand Kern Diazepam 10mg tablets…..Best Valium on planet earth. Canadian generic Apo-Tex Diazepam are complete trash.

….and these Lorazepam 1mg tablets are incredible…..I take 2…..30min rapid onset, and Boom. Potent rapid acting benzodiazepine for certain

But ya…..Avizafone 60-80mg is a moderate dose. 20-40 is a low therapeutic dose……80-120 would be high.


Waiting for my 30 Alprazolam 0.5mg to come by delivery truck…..I’m eager to take 1.5mg of Alprazolam compared to Lorazepam 2mg

Oh ya…and these Lorazepam 1mg are Soooo tiny. Round white, clean 1 imprint, non scored….Tiny as Fck…..Potent as Fck…..Id kill for several pillow cases full (a million tablets lol) …..I’m talking soooo fckn tiny 1mg Lorazepam and 50mg excipient ….on your pinky finger nail you could fit 10-12 tablets. Really. a white spec. Over 100,000 + could fit in a pillow case, shit, maybe half a Mil.

Most amazing Lorazepam 1mg tablets I’ve had…..amd Soooo potent & pleasant lol, just took one waiting for my Xanax truck to come lol