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long term recreational heroin users

Re: Ebeneezer,etc.

rachamim18 said:
David: First of all this is not "Politics and Current Events" so keep your post on the subject at hand...although I find it interesting that a person who considers drug users such disdainful creatures [actually the word you used was "scum"] would be a user himself. It points to a real self esteem issue but this is not the time or place to adress that.

David, we are not arguing the nature of addiction. We are discussing casual use after a periods of heavy use and whether ones behavioral history predicates them to repeat the same negative behavior as before. Even if your use has led you to your conclusion I do not see how you [or anyone else] can assume the same would be true for everyone.

I like candy. I eat it every day. I go on a diet for 6 months. I eat a breath mint after every Sunday dinner. I am now going to become absolutely obese? Come on...give me a break. There are no absolutes here. Are all heroin users pocketbook robbing Granmothers purse pilfering scumbags? People come in every stripe you can imagine.

Geezer: He means that he believes that the Holocaust did not kill 6 million Jews. Being that I am a Jew he feels that I do not know my own peoples history because I call him on it. It is his way of trying to get an ad hom in while pertending to add something to the discussion.

Papaver: Not only do you give dangerous advice [as in boiling glacial acetic acid and morphine] but you are now officially a liar. You did not say that it was possible. You said impossible...as in absolute. You said that my [and others] claim that it was possible to use recreationally after periods of heavy use was a lie. you did not mention"a friend of 7 years yada yada..."
If you had this thread would have had a quiet death. Whatever though, because now you have illustrated my point. But then at the end of your most recent post you go right back into absolutes...Which is is Papaver?
Click to expand...

My post was on hand. It was only about my experience, and the criticism of your reponses here. As you have shown in the past clear distaste for educational information, and scientific facts, that do not co-incide with your own beliefs. Yet here you berate someone over the same thing. That's ridiculous, and why should anyone even take your seriously other than fellow religious fanatics, and supporters of fascist regimes. Now I did go OT, because you dragged it that way, just like every thread I read your replies in.

I also see drug users as normal people, but I don't trust tweakers, or crack heads, and no one should. You are a self confessed tweaker. I've been in this drug game for a very long time, and know how people act on most things. 10 years of drug culture has it's way of imprinting you on what to stay away from, and who to trust, and how much.

BTW last time I looked I was able to post anywhere I wanted to, and I was actually requested to come in here, and debate this crap you are spewing forth here, as I have experience with the Heroin game that is quite comprehensive. Not through my own use, but a former girlfriend, that fought through addiction all the way until she commited suicide, because she could not stay clean even after moving away from the area she was getting it from. I saw it from a lover, and spectator how bad it can get.

I never declared to not believe in the holocaust. I say the numbers are way the fuck off. I can't see how those two can equate to each other, other than in some strange drug induced delusional state.

I've called you on your history not the other way around, and I personally hate the fact, that you go around spreading BS, and lies about people on this board. I'd hate to meet you in real life, actually I think you'd hate to meet me. I don't take that shit from anyone. My whole way of posting is because you spread your misinformation, and lies all over this board, that is for honesty, and truth.

I dare your so called "friends" to quit now, cold fucking turkey, and see if they have withdrawals. I know for a fact they will.
 
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please keep this thread on topic and free of flames. it was relatively so until the second page. also, please keep your differences in other forums in those respective forums.

thank you,
mgmt

PS: if you wish to debate (or, for that matter, respond to) my post, do not do it in this thread. remember, on topic, flame free.
 
i dont mean to change topics but withthe information in here i feel itsrelative.

Im finding myself less of a recreational user these days although im trying to limit my use during the week especially for money reasons.
i really cant pull off being totally junk free, and honestly,i dont much want to. I feel even though I'm using daily and averaging 6 bags a day (not saying thats a lot) that I'm a rec user since I'm not too financially drained to support this, and I know if i want to or am forced to stop the wds arent totally bad

Maybe im just blinded by addiction but i feel my morning shot helps make me a better worker, frees my back pain, im calm and more polite and courteous. anyway, sometimes i cant get enough money up for the week and i go through this moderate w/d and a lot of depression. The body pain i can deal with but its the depression like most of you im sure can relate is the motherfucker.

anyway, if our country provided a prescription heroin program do you think it could aid the rec users also as opposed to the serious junky who's been in and out of jail, is stealing forhis shit, has a really expensive habit...etc?

I feel it has a lot of positive qualities and could really be a positive thing if my use could be monitored by a doctor and i could be given clean pharmaceautical grade dope and sterile solution and needles, especially if my insurance could pick up the tab and I could save most of my paycheck that I'mspending now, and avoid more legal issues in the future which could potentially ruin/setback my life even though the only crime i commit is possession as i dont rob and steal to support myhabit.

Hell I know this is a fairy tale I'm writing but honestly I think it could truly change my life for the better. I'm sorry for the long post, and being off topic, and repeating a much covered topic.
 
Fast...

Fast: More than one...There is currently an active thread where he says that verbatim. As well he has said: "I don't like Jews. They are all cheap and materialistic. I know what I am talking about. I worked in a body shop repairing their cars. They all had Jaguars and Benzes. They even wanted to be called cheap. They took pride in it." I will post the thread titles and post numbers when I have a bit more time. The sad thing is though, that he claims to be part Jewish. I will not bother with all the anti Zionist rants et cetera because he argues that has nothing to do with any bias...

For the record David: [Not that others have not already told you this many,many times] I am a heroin addict who has not used heroin in almost a decade. I am on METHADONE...not METHAMPHETAMINE. People that use methamphetamine are the people characterised as "TWEAKERS," not METHADONE patients. Your ignorance in this forum , as in all others, is astounding.

David: By [seriously] discounting the casualties, as well as saying that the crematoria do not exist, you qualify as a Holocaust denier... as many have already told you elsewhere.

David: Now you have the audacity to imply a personal threat? You have described yourself as a soaking wet 140 lb man who stands at 5 foot 6. I do not think that you would like to meet me but if you are serious I have listed enough of my personal info to be easily located...In fact you need not look any further than this very thread. I enjoy meeting new people so anytime you would like to mosey on down to the South Bronx...

Now to restore [hopefully] the true nature of this thread [not to mention this forum]...Why would my "so called friends" suffer withdrawals from going "cold turkey" if they do not have a physical habit to begin with? David you are not making sense [as usual]. To undergo withdrawal you have to first be habituated...which is the whole reason this thread exists...Try reading it in its entierty instead of just following my name around.
 
JerseyDrape...

Pharmaceutical heroin is prescribed in the U.K. for serious [i.e. cancer level] pain. As far as a degenerative orthapedic condition I think that heroin will never be freely prescribed for it.

I do feel that it should be available for addicts in much the same way methadone is now available. In terms of half life,etc. heroin is less of a "threat" than methadone ever was. Methadone is their way of not really dealing with the problem although things could always be worse...I could move to Moldova where I still have family and not be provided any narcotic therapy. There are plenty of places where people are left to their own devices.








[Edited to change the word heroin to methadone in the 3rd line of the last paragraph-2 words after the word "threat"]
 
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Whether or not rachamin believes there was a jewish holocaust is irrelevant. But it is strange you dont hear people talking about the MASSIVE christian genocide (far larger than that of the jewish genocide) that took place in communist russia, you certainly dont see movies made any christian genocide. But whatever, none of this applies to this thread.....
 
Whether or not rachamin believes there was a jewish holocaust is irrelevant. But it is strange you dont hear people talking about the MASSIVE christian genocide (far larger than that of the jewish genocide) that took place in communist russia, you certainly dont see movies made any christian genocide. But whatever, none of this applies to this thread.....
 
Back to the topic. I think it is possible to revert to rec use depending on circumstances. Sometimes things in ones life changes in such a way that one is willing to endure the transitional period. I think it would be extremely difficult but I have done so with benzos. I can now use 2-4 times a week and not get w/d where previously 1 day and I would be electric shock , ready to convulse city.

I also think things such as duration of addiction , amounts used, availability and cash flow would have a bearing on it. Quite a complicated topic,with obviously widely varying opinions.


I have never been a daily opioid user but have had a few episodes of w/d after frequent heavy intermittent use. I now use what would be considered by most as recreational-weekends only. Psychologically though, I am hooked both on benzos and opioids.

No science. Just my experience and thoughts.
 
I'll try and keep this on topic. With the issue of recreational heroin use i can point to certain areas of interest but I'm not getting into a personal debate on any side. In a Scotland prison daily 'hardcore heroin addicts' switched to weekend use to avoid drug tests. Obviously, there was a lot of pressure on them to alter their pattern of use. On the other hand, and I would include alcohol and other drugs in this, if you have used a drug to its extreme - and everything else that comes with that - then it is very difficult to go back to controlled or recreational use. But it is not impossible. More importantly, stating that subjective experience puts everything into context is misleading - and I don't mean that in a bad way - as a lot of subjective experience is based on science and anecdotal information.

Also, keeping it on subjectivity, by telling somebody that it's going to be terrible experience i.e. withdrawals for instance, doesn't that make their situation worse? When people come out of hospital who have been on diamorphine, they feel sick, but a lot of them don't associate that sickness to the diamorphine. Does 'knowing' play a part? And if it does, why do we say heroin is physically addictive and not psychologically addictive?
 
^Other than pallative care, a few "addicts" (less than 1000) are prescribed pharm heroin. Though the numbers are low they are expected to increase. though its only in London and liverpool mainly.

There was a psychiatrist who used to work in Liverpool and specialized in treating people with dependancies (can't remember his name) who did his best to prescribe diamorphine for stable long term addicts who had jobs, stable home life etc., but kept getting dropped from methadone programs for failing urine tests. He eventually left working in Liverpool (and the UK I think) because despite the fact that he'd shown that these people were, not counting their drug problems, productive citizens the Dept. of Health and the Home Office were strongly opposed his treatment methods. I think their thoughts were somewhere along the lines of "it's giving drug users what they want" and that idea appalled them.

I'm not surprised that it eventually got to him (the fact that he might as well be banging his head against a brick wall). The people he was treating benefitted, society benefitted, but the politicians in Westminster are still operating with Victorian morality. He proved it could work, and everybody benefitted; what the fuck more do politicians want (other than a huge collective kick up the arse)?


bagof

I think the expectation of WD is almost like a "reverse placebo" effect (wanted to be a smartarse, but couldn't think what latin for "I will disappoint " was, being that placebo means "I will please") as over Christmas & New Year about 12 years ago, my father was prescribed Diconal 3 x daily for 2 weeks (he used them for about 12 days 'till the pain had subsided) and when he stopped, the only thing that in any way bothered him was that he had a couple of nights where he had problems sleeping. Had it been me taking them for 12 days, I would have had a lot more dustress than that.

PS after the ones left had sat in a cupboard for a couple of months, they "mysteriously" disappeared over the space of three weeks!
 
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Bag ofs question...

Bag of: A good deal of it is in fact psychological. That said, there are definite physical symptoms. I will not bore you with the mechanics of addiction but it is safe to say that a habitual users body undergoes a metamorphosis. The body then needs the substance to maintain some semblance of normalcy.

Fast: I will p.m. the threads and various post numbers...it does make for some entertaining, albeit frustrating reading.

Negro: I do not want to hijack this thread with a topic that does not even belong in this forum...but...The differences are many,but the main ones are
these: In the Soviet Union people were not the victims of genocide. They were the victims of a calculated political persecution. For the most part the victims of the gulag were worked instead of summarily executed like the Jews [and many others]. The reason why you hear so much about it is because of a few things: Its relatively recent occurence, its speed and efficiency [aaah German efficiency], and its thorough documentation. The reason Jews are talked about so much in the context of "victimhood" is that out of all the persecuted groups in the Holocaust [communists, homosexuals, Roma and Sinti [so called "gypsies"], dissidents, common criminals, handicapped, and the terminally ill] it was the Jews that suffered the highest loss - not to mention the dispoportionate count on a per capita basis. The Holocaust virtually destroyed a vibrant and ancient culture.
 
adradmin said:
^^rachamin has a good point. saying that it is impossible, and then giving an example? it's difficult without very strong willpower, yes... impossible, no.
Click to expand...

I have not given any example...I said that the longest time I knew somebody "chipping" intravenous heroin was for 7 years, then he had top stop, and a friend of mine knew of a 10 year ditto. But neither of those had ever been a hardcore everyday user for years, and therefore had not had terrible WD's. I am talking - the whole time - about disciplined I.V use at weekends, and not any other opiates at any other days, and only with people who before had been addicted to everyday I.V shooting for years (with - of course - painful WD's).

This whole discussion started when I asked DaveSoviet how long he had succeeded in this, that I had never even heard of anyone that had succeeded in doing this for years. Even so, I said that perhaps he was some kind of superhuman, or he was different from all junkies I ever had met - and they are plenty, believe me. I said to racham that we could at least agree on that even if one or two really had succeeded in this, it was so extrememly unusual that you must count the possiblilty of anyone else succeeding in this, as almost nonexistent. But no....He knows "many"....
Well perhaps the addicts in South Bronx are of a certain kind, not getting WD's...
 
Zzz...

Good grief! Give it a rest already! You want a concession before you cease and desist? O.K....South Bronx Junkies ARE superhuman. We are the best of the best...Whatever man. Move on...please.
 
An interesting view is to look at WD as a process in which the body is rebalancing itself. I don't want to go into the pharmacology but that's what's happening within the brain. We talk about the process of getting off as 'detoxing', however, the drug as left the body within 3 days. I know that addiction, dependency, whatever you want to call it, both rely on psychological and physical components, but their is an overwhelming bias towards this concept of physical addiction when it comes to heroin. I've known heroin users who have gone through cold turkey saying they can't move...until you put money in their hand and then they're skipping down the road to see their dealer. If money to get the drug can do that...shouldn't we start by informing heroin users on how the drug is actually affecting their minds and bodies... so you don't give them this sense of 'powerlessness'. You say something long enough and hard enough people eventually believe it and internalise it, like 'you're going to go through a shit time mate,' 'getting off it is really hard, really hard.' and 'once an addict always an addict' - ....what chance are you giving the individual??
 
Bagof: I agree with you about informing people about whats happening to their body, as I've found that there's nothing more frightening and distressing than not knowing what's happening to your body or your mind. That said though, I've known some junkies that are "professional victims" - they've discovered that if they really play on the unpleasantness of WD, that people who care for them will give them money to stop their suffering, but they end up taking that approach with everyone. It's the bit about "they say they can't move until they get money in their hand" that prompted my memory.

I know from personal experience how unpleasant WD can be, but the professional victims sound worse 8 hours after their last hit than normal people are at the 36 hour mark; and because it sometimes works (hence re-enforcing their behaviour) they just go on and on and on. I couldn't stand by and watch someone that I thought was genuinely suffering without trying to help in some way, but the whingers just bring out all the nasty bitter emotions in me; so much so that I have to bite my tounge, or else I'd turn into my grandad (his favourite phrase," stop whinging or I will give you something to bloody cry about").
 
Ditto...

Not to discount the actual horror of genuine withdrawal agony but it is interesting to delve into just how much of it is actually psychological.
 
Fast and Rachamim

It is worthwhile looking at the psychological aspect of heroin use because at the end of the day everything is processed through the mind. But is such dodgy ground when we talk about heroin. Some professor once said that when someone is into a thing we don't like we call it addiction. If someone is a complusive player of the violin we call it dedication. The view is scant from its foundation, and the reason why is, because if it is an addiction, compulsive behaviour - and lets face it what's the difference between Obsessional Compulsive Disorder and addiction? - then the individual is seen as powerless.
The cure? Well look how many opioids are prescribed, Drug Companies are doing just great out of this predicament. I think the heroin user is psychologically backed into a corner right from the start. Choices and responsiblities are taken away.i.e. I can't get out of this because I'm physically addicted to heroin. I'm powerless over the drug.

The best way to build your immune system is to first start believing in yourself.
 
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