long term recreational heroin users

[PapaverPrisoner]

Re: Sigh...

I suggest you offer more than your opinion. The "importance" of my statement is to show that as a science, "addiction" is still a new and largely unexplored field. If you offer something more substantial than "I have never seen..."

You haven't said anything yourself but what you have seen...Your talk about addiction research has nothing to do with - and certainly not proves - the fact we are discussing - that it's not possible for physically hooked IV users who has been shooting everyday for more than 2 years - to only do it on weekends thereafter, and saying no to all opiates that may be offered to them during the weeks.

Rivered made it - but his everyday use were only for 2 months, and others with years of hardcore addiction have made it for weeks and months, but if you cannot do it forever, whats the point? And that is impossible. I am saying that sooner or later - or rather sooner - you will have to stop, go back to everyday use, or you find yourself using it whenever you can, even if that is more seldom. Are you trying to tell me that those blokes have bags of heroin and syringes in their homes, but they won't take any until friday ever!

Or perhaps you and your friends used such lowgrade crap that it hardly counts. In Sweden we have never - even in the streets - had anything as low as 5-25% purity as I believe you had in the US in the old days. We have always had high prices but people from all over Europe have for 30 years been astonished at our high quality here. That's have been our only comfort living in the hellhole of drughysteria. But nowadays I had the impression that the heroin was pure in US...

Or maybe you are living straight under a high-power electrical field, sitting in front of computers 24/7 with switched-on cell phones taped around your head. I believe there is plenty of new research that states that magnetic fields will ease WD..........

 

[rivered1]

Your impression of heroin purity in the US is correct... its became much purer. Thats about all I ahve to say to your posts, I dont feel like addressing the rest.. I'm in no mood to think and argue.

 

[kemikals]

my story

i've been using dope for more than 3 years. the first couple months i idid it a couple of times. then it eventually turned into 3x week for about 2years. during that time i suffered wd's 2-3 times because i broke my cycle of going every two days.

now, my life was pretty chaotic at the time and the dope never really hurt me, but rather helped het through a painful period. i managed to keep it low key and the only permeant effects i notice be it physiological, ect. was one possesion conviction. i was going to school while doing this, took breaks for awhile, seemed to be under control.

however after meeting the needle my habit turned into something alot more dangerous. from the first time iv'ing a went on a 3month binge of almost daily use.then there comes a point where you realize your going too far, i realized i had a problem, went in for treatment and got clean. for the past 4 months ive kept usage down to 1-2x a month, enough not to fuck with everyday life. thats my long term recreational heroin user story. dope is one of those drugs you can not let it go too far cause thats when you just keep going downwards.



PapaverPrisoner, your veiws and expiriences may differ from rachim's is geographical reasons. ive spent time in both europe and the us, and there is truth in they are different. Also, dont catagorize Europian heroin, most places i know of England and Poland as well as most of Russia, have infirior dope to the us. most of europe's heroin is the brown(no.3) which pales in comparisent to the white(no.4) that most americans get.

 

[aloowishus]

I had an addiction to H from 18-21 then methodone for 8months then back on the gear for 6months,things went very bad ad this point,basically if i didn't get off H(clean tests) i had to serve an 18month prison term that hadbeen suspended....so i did quit for about 10months,not a single taste and no methadone.
After 10mths i went back to "chipping",about 1/2g every second weekend,this actually worked out really well until i moved back to the city this year,previously i lived a 500km round trip from H,all of a sudden it was a 10minute tram ride,too tempting for me(and the city sucks) so i moved back to the country and haven't had a taste for 9weeks,although it took $700 a week and a fractured eye socket to realise i was fucking up again.
Anyway i'm 26 now so that was about 4years of chipping with no problem,and i'm sure i'll go back to chipping now that i'm in the country,infact i get paid tomorrow and have tuesday off

 

[PapaverPrisoner]

Re: my story

...from the first time iv'ing a went on a 3month binge of almost daily use....for the past 4 months ive kept usage down to 1-2x a month, enough not to fuck with everyday life. thats my long term recreational heroin user story...

... Also, dont catagorize Europian heroin, most places i know of England and Poland as well as most of Russia, have infirior dope to the us. most of europe's heroin is the brown(no.3) which pales in comparisent to the white(no.4) that most americans get.

I am happy that you have been able to take control over your use. But as you yourself states - you haven't used daily intravenously for more than 3 months, and you only take it now 1-2 times a month, and you have only been doing that for four months. Thats a big difference - we were arguing about shooting everyday IV for more than 2 years, and then using every weekend which would be at least 4 shots, probably more, each month. And doing this year after year. However I certainly hope that you can go through with this without too much agony.

Yes i know that the dope in certain countries in Europe is not always good - but I was only speaking of Sweden. If you are an addict, Sweden is a terrible country to live in. The prices are high, the country is hysteric - we cannot even buy needles in the pharmacies, all other europeans can do that - but the smack has always been surprisingly good. We used to joke that you got better quality buying from an unknown in a Stockholm street, than from people you knew in apartments in drugliberal Copenhagen or Amsterdam.

Contrary to many other European countries we have almost always had access to white heroin here, often of strong purity. The immigrants take in a lot of brown, but they have their own smoking customers. I have heard so many times since 1976 astonished people from other countries asking us how we can have so high quality here in this far-off little country. There certainly are reasons for that - but I cannot go into them here...

Swedes staying in the US coming back, never failed to remark on how much better our smack was then in US. But that was in the 70's and 80's, I do not hear that anymore nowadays - you seem to have very good quality overthere now. At least on the eastern coast. And I certainly envy you the possibility too buy new sharp needles whenever you want to...

 

[rachamim18]

To each his own...

Actually Papaver, not to toot my own horn, but I have done heroin on 5 continents so I am fairly well versed on all types [not that it matters]. One thing I have learned is that users and addicts do not fall into any one category. Everyone is different. I am sorry that you have found things the way you have but I know for a fact that your statement is incorrect. You challenge me on the matter of scientific references but I was not the one who tried to offer a definitive answer, you were. You stated that it was one way, no exceptions. In order to make such a conclusive statement you would have to have some kind of objective scientific proof...again, all you have is your opinion.

About living under magnetic fields,etc. Whatever man, you sound pretty much how I thought you would after reading your initial "opinion."

 

[PapaverPrisoner]

I have been busy on the phone and on the e-mail, trying to get someone I know just tell me of anyone who has been successful in the way you describe. But they all laugh, or say never ever. Oh everyone have HEARD ppl brag about it - that they WOULD, SHOULD, HAD DONE etc etc. But when you rushed into them you always found out - sooner or later - that what they meant by "weekend shooting" was getting their hands on opiates (codeine, subutex, metadone etc)whenever they could, whatever the day of the week. Wives guarding it, written promises notwithstanding the "weekend-only-shooting" could be done for weeks, months and in one case, almost a year. But never longer....

How many people do you know that have been smoking 20 cigarettes a day, and then switched to friday-saturday-sunday smoking? I actually succeeded in this for about 4 years. But that child's play compared to heroin - because the lack of nicotine only makes you irritated etc. It's more a psychological addiction, but heroin is a physiological one.

I do not confuse this with joypopping for years. I knew a guy who actually shot intravenously for 7 years without ever getting physically hooked.

But thats another story, because he had never been physically dependent. I don't know how many addicts i have met during my heroin life. I got my first IV morphine shot 1974 (or 1973 it's hard to remember) just before the heroin started to arrive on a big scale in Sweden. And some of the folks that I have asked, have been going on opiates even longer. Together we have known thousands of other opiate users. And yet I cannot come up with one example of what you are referring to.

Could it be a race thing? Most of those I asked including myself is of the germanic race, but certainly not all of them. And many including myself have used coke and speed with discipline. but not heroin...But this is fruitless. maybe you know people who have done this. I simply cannot believe that they are "many". And thats the main thing - because if it so rare that nobody I know has heard of anyone succeeding, then one can at least say that it is very very difficult, and joypoppers on the brink of everyday addiction shouldn't ever count it as a possible solution to go back to...

 

[rachamim18]

Semantics...

Many is a relative terrm but I would say that it is an apt description. You might know alot of users in "Sweden" but I think I have you trumped on a per capita basis...Try and "Google" "Heroin in the South Bronx" and see how many addicts live in my neighborhood alone. The U.S. has the highest rate of heroin addiction of any nation in the world. Within the U.S., New York City has the highest rate. Within NYC, the South Bronx is tops. Within the South Bronx, Mott Haven is the overall winner...So I tend to believe my own eyes on this one. Forgive me for doubting you but I have already caught you giving potentially fatal advice in another thread concerning opiates ,so do not be too disappointed if I brush your opinion off.

 

[PapaverPrisoner]

Re: Semantics...

Many is a relative terrm but I would say that it is an apt description. You might know alot of users in "Sweden" but I think I have you trumped on a per capita basis...Try and "Google" "Heroin in the South Bronx" and see how many addicts live in my neighborhood alone. The U.S. has the highest rate of heroin addiction of any nation in the world. Within the U.S., New York City has the highest rate. Within NYC, the South Bronx is tops. Within the South Bronx, Mott Haven is the overall winner...So I tend to believe my own eyes on this one. Forgive me for doubting you but I have already caught you giving potentially fatal advice in another thread concerning opiates ,so do not be too disappointed if I brush your opinion off.

It's not very interesting how many addicts live here and there. The interesting thing is how many addicts you know so well, so that you go to their houses, talk to their friends and relatives, visit them - or have them visit you - so that you can actually check up on them. I mean I have said that I have heard these things said before many times by many people - but it has either been lies, exaggerations, or finally they didn't make it.

Granted that I was mistaken in the heron boiling field - although as I said I didn't think that anyone would take that literally - this is entirely another matter. It's a thing that has before my eyes for decades; it has been my dream for many years, to be able to do this, so you can safely believe me when I tell you that I have always watched out very carefully when something of that matter comes ahead. And i have always been disappointed.

I forgot to tell you that I spoke also with a fantastically unpredjudiced worker in the methadone programs - she also worked for many years in rehabilitation programs - and she said the same; although this dream was always talked about among addicts, she had never seen it work. Perhaps you take for granted what people are telling you, can that be so? Also you do not sound as a very experienced IV junkie in another context. All heroin users who have been using for many years are always putting more and more emphasis on the physical addiction. The willpower talk usually goes out through the window, because for every year you are hooked, you are being more and more defenceless against your own physiology.

All experienced heroin shooters have had countless WD's and started again etc etc and every time you quit your WD will get worse. To disregard that physiological component - so central in heroin addiction - is very unusual to say the least. maybe you have some kind of unusual physiology that make it very easy to do a thing like that. I have read some of your other posts, and they do not sound as if they come from a heroin addict, plagued by many years of constant withdrawals and rehooking.

I would have stopped this discussion long ago - but talking about killing and danger to others - that is the reason why I am answering you again and again. Because joypoppers at the brink of addiction, have two alternatives. They can stop. Or they can go on to everyday use - if they do not hold out and go on joypopping. But if they read your senseless statements, they must get the notion that it's relatively simple to go back to "weekend shooting" since you know "so many" who does just that. And that is where you are much more dangerous than my slip about acetic anhydr. Because only one in a thousand - not even that - will succeed with it...

 

[ebeneezer_geeza]

First off the highest nation of heroin addicts goes to Iran not America. It has 1 in 20 addicts.

Opium and addiction to opiates is thousands of years old.

SOME Doctors have and still freely prescribe opiates/opiods without knowing the consequences. Some cuz they think they are helping, others cuz it brings in money.

Addiction and the study of it was being conducted in the 1800s and at the end of this era heroin was actually said to be a cure for morphine addiction.

As for the reasons as to how and why ppl get addicted they are far more complex. It might be boredom for one and a lack of endorphins for another, where as in someone else they may need to eleviate their depression and get used to the dopaminergic effects. The reward deficet syndrome also accounts for some, while there are a few who may end up accidently addicts they would be more in their minority.

However, once the complexity of addiction: pyshcogical/physical components are in place it takes more than just "unlearning" to get rid of it. We do not fully know how we learn - at the physical,cellular level yet, so how can we fully understand addiction? however, we all know that for most ppl constant use of an opiate over a long period of time will usually lead to addiction, there are a few exceptions.

Once someone has had a habit, due to the processes that happen in the body and mind, it is virtually impossible to go back to casual use. I know only of one person - who goes on this board - who has done this. For most, inc me, just one hit will usually put me back to addiction, though i managed 5 years using casually. The same with me is true of smoking (nicotine addiction), there is no such thing as rec use after years of having habits unless you fall into the small number who can exercise excellent self control/discipline but the fact they we ended up addicted to start with precludes the rec use for the future. By the same token i now cannot smoke a cigarette again.

 

[rachamim18]

Uh...

Sorry Ebeneezer we were only comparing our respective homes . In any event there is very little i.v. use in Iran as smoking is the preffered method so the point is moot. Ebeneezer all you are doing is stating your subjective experience. Noone questions what pattern of behavior the MAJORITY of users/addicts follow. The point of contention is that Papaver stated unequivocally that it was IMPOSSIBLE. You yourself have just stated that a portion of addicts can use recreationally after overcoming active addiction...thus defeating his point. Thank you also for concurring that the SCIENCE of addiction is a new and relatively uncharted field.

Papaver: I have no doubt that a methadone clinic worker agreed with your assertion. That is part and parcel of their abstinence mantra...Sadly though ,they also usually claim that an addict cannot go straight without the benefit of a 12 Step program ,and most would not even bother to argue that point...

You are right...I am a fraud. I have never even seen heroin. I am a wannabe junkie because I think that heroin is chic and rebellious. Whatever...just more fantasizing like your post insinuating that I was actually posting under different names...

You make an interesting point in saying my advice is "dangerous." Even if that were somehow true they would not lose their life and blow up their neighborhood like they would with your previous "educated opinion."

Stick to taking polls in the mean streets of Sweden and stop trying to tear someone down [unless of course you can do it by providing SCIENTIFIC facts].

 

[ebeneezer_geeza]

well forgive me rachamim18 i didnt know the rules of the game, in that you just meant the USA. As for being subjective I dont see much in the way of scientific evidence coming from you so far. Very little of what you are saying that holds much scientific validity - it is afterall, mainly your own beleifs from what i can see, while i agree with some of them i cant help get the feeling that you cannot be wrong even if you are - perhaps you just dont like the thought of losing.

I too can maintain everything i say is the truth - IT IS, well to me it is. But alas i am not a match for you game playing abilities as i just know you will move the goal posts to suit your outcome.

I fail to see where you are going to obtain much in the way of scientifc facts for the subject of addiction when you say yourself its a new science. i have yet to see many scientists agree on much, as they do not in other fields too.

Most of us know that the vast majority of addicts just cannot use again recreationaly - common sense dictates this even if scientific facts fail to confirm it!

As for your remark about papaver's methadone worker, well they would tend to say that here in the UK, and most dont agree with the 12-step here. I think you just want to argue black is blue. Which, if true, isnt really worth anyones' energy.

 

[adradmin]

How many people do you know that have been smoking 20 cigarettes a day, and then switched to friday-saturday-sunday smoking? I actually succeeded in this for about 4 years. But that child's play compared to heroin - because the lack of nicotine only makes you irritated etc.

child's play compared to heroin? wow, nicotene had a stronger psychological grip on me in that it was IMPOSSIBLE to quit. the fact that it's legal, socially acceptable, and around me all the time made it hard. after i had a heroin habit i was using on the weekends like that, and during the week i would just be irritable. Using on the weekend (2x in my case) is NOT long enough to cause a physical addiction in most people. Sure, you might think about it during the week, but if you keep yourself busy and have a life it really won't tie you down. What it boils down to is that it's all mental.

 

[David]

Re: Uh...

Papaver: I have no doubt that a methadone clinic worker agreed with your assertion. That is part and parcel of their abstinence mantra...Sadly though ,they also usually claim that an addict cannot go straight without the benefit of a 12 Step program ,and most would not even bother to argue that point...

You are right...I am a fraud. I have never even seen heroin. I am a wannabe junkie because I think that heroin is chic and rebellious. Whatever...just more fantasizing like your post insinuating that I was actually posting under different names...

You make an interesting point in saying my advice is "dangerous." Even if that were somehow true they would not lose their life and blow up their neighborhood like they would with your previous "educated opinion."

Stick to taking polls in the mean streets of Sweden and stop trying to tear someone down [unless of course you can do it by providing SCIENTIFIC facts].

Hmm, you preach scientific facts when it comes to heroin use, but not the histroy of your own people?

I hate to tell you addiction is a condition of craving. It doesn't matter how mant times you do it, or don't do it, it's all the damn same. I used it for three fucking months, at first it was only on the weekends, and within two weeks it was every fucking day. It's that quick, and I'm not a person that takes to any one substance like that, that quickly.

I still almost a year after stopping, have the cravings, I can't help but to want it still to this day, and I only snorted the stuff, I'd hate to think what would happen if I IV'd it, and kept using for even a little longing.

 

[ebeneezer_geeza]

history of own people


^ what do you mean by that? all addicts and users are for example like american indians and belong to a similar group?

 

[PapaverPrisoner]

child's play compared to heroin? wow, nicotene had a stronger psychological grip on me in that it was IMPOSSIBLE to quit. the fact that it's legal, socially acceptable, and around me all the time made it hard. after i had a heroin habit i was using on the weekends like that, and during the week i would just be irritable. Using on the weekend (2x in my case) is NOT long enough to cause a physical addiction in most people. Sure, you might think about it during the week, but if you keep yourself busy and have a life it really won't tie you down. What it boils down to is that it's all mental.

Perhaps it was unfair of me to call it's childs play - for most people it is certainly not. I just wanted to point out that it CAN be done. People laughed at me ofcourse, and said I would never succeed with heroin, but I said "how many people have you seen do like that" with cigarettes? If I can do that I can do it with heroin. I was so very wrong. It IS hard to do what I did with nicotin - but it is not impossible, because it is mainly a psychological addiction. With heroin it is BOTH. (It is a LITTLE physiological with nicotine some ppl say - well that may be, but you will not be drenched in sweat.)

I say it again: I have seen many ppl chip even with intravenous addiction of heroin - one guy 7 years, before he had to stop. He liked it very much - in fact it is to have the best of the drugworld AND the normal world. I myself have never come across anyone doing that longer, but I have a friend that swears that he knew a guy that held out for 10 years, with intravenous use, shooting only at weekends (or rather one day; saturday.)

And I have known several people who after hardcore everyday addiction, realised that they couldn't possible stand the chase, the life etc. So they only take when someone offers them something, when they have enogh money etc. Some of those are taking several times a week, others only 1 or twice in a month or even more seldom. Those who take several times a week will of course be sick most of time, those who take only once a month can stand it much better. But that is another story - it is not what we are talking about. We are talking about being physically hooked for many years by IV use, and THEN go back to shooting at weekends. I assumed that it was every weekend, and since rachamim hasn't corrected me, I take it that he also means every weekend.

I have admitted that it could be possible, that perhaps one in a thousand, or even more seldom could do it - but in fact racham won't go that far. He implies that it isn't seen so very seldom, that he in fact know of "many"...
I don't doubt that David contin has done it for a while - but if he has had a very hardcore everyday IV addiction for more than 2 years it will be extremely difficult for him - although I SAID in my post about him, that maybe he was some kind of superhuman in that field.

If someone should say that "Look, with 2 years it's just possible, that is the limit", well it could be. To be honest most of those who failed that I had heard of had much longer addictions. And I thought of Sovietcontin as Davesoviet - but perhaps they are not the same guy. With Sovietcontin I know that he had the same kind of heroin use as most people, as he clearly stated that before. But I have also taken it for granted that racham was speaking of a bunch of different people, with everyday use from 2 years and upwards, as they were so "many"as he has never mentioned that 2 years was just the amount of time they had been shooting. So I assume that he means a whole bunch of different junkies with from 2 up to 20 years of addiction.

Let's take Bobby for instance. He started to chip (snorting) when he was 17, took his first IV injection when he was 19, chipped with these until he was 21. Then he went into a hard everyday addiction - with pauses thrown in, and WD's - but on the whole he was shooting every day these years. He longs for the day when he can go back to weekend shots. At 27 he actually detox, waits for 3 months and then he starts. He will allow himself, let's say 2 shots on friday afternoon, one in saturday morning, one in saturday evening and perhaps one in Sunday. No, let's forget the Sunday. He will be clean that day. So he starts - for safetys reason, he has stashed a big amount at his brothers house, and his brother will only give him some on friday and saturday. He walks away to his brothers house, happy. What will happen? Why will he fail? (Because he will?)

 

[rachamim18]

Ebeneezer,etc.

Ebeneezer: You are right. It is not a scientific argument. I said so myself more than once in this very thread. I said: "If you cannot back up your position with scientific evidence then it is merely subjective or conjecture." Papaver made a statement that it is IMPOSSIBLE to do something that a few people here [including me] already know is possible. He argues in absolutes, I said that unless you provide scientific proof than your position is not absolute. Papaver said that it is a fact because "it is part and parcel of the science of addiction" where I maintained that the science of addiction is new and uncharted [not to mention that it does not make an assertion like his].

You very well may be right that the argument is not worth much energy but I do feel that when a person makes absolute statements they SHOULD be debunked in the best interest of the many inexperienced people that peruse these boards in search of guidance. If he had said "It has been my experience"instead of "this is how it is and anyone that says different is a liar" I would have not said a peep [well at least a contentious peep].

I agree with Adrads assesment 100%.

David: First of all this is not "Politics and Current Events" so keep your post on the subject at hand...although I find it interesting that a person who considers drug users such disdainful creatures [actually the word you used was "scum"] would be a user himself. It points to a real self esteem issue but this is not the time or place to adress that.

David, we are not arguing the nature of addiction. We are discussing casual use after a periods of heavy use and whether ones behavioral history predicates them to repeat the same negative behavior as before. Even if your use has led you to your conclusion I do not see how you [or anyone else] can assume the same would be true for everyone.

I like candy. I eat it every day. I go on a diet for 6 months. I eat a breath mint after every Sunday dinner. I am now going to become absolutely obese? Come on...give me a break. There are no absolutes here. Are all heroin users pocketbook robbing Granmothers purse pilfering scumbags? People come in every stripe you can imagine.

Geezer: He means that he believes that the Holocaust did not kill 6 million Jews. Being that I am a Jew he feels that I do not know my own peoples history because I call him on it. It is his way of trying to get an ad hom in while pertending to add something to the discussion.

Papaver: Not only do you give dangerous advice [as in boiling glacial acetic acid and morphine] but you are now officially a liar. You did not say that it was possible. You said impossible...as in absolute. You said that my [and others] claim that it was possible to use recreationally after periods of heavy use was a lie. you did not mention"a friend of 7 years yada yada..."
If you had this thread would have had a quiet death. Whatever though, because now you have illustrated my point. But then at the end of your most recent post you go right back into absolutes...Which is is Papaver?

 

[adradmin]

^^rachamin has a good point. saying that it is impossible, and then giving an example? it's difficult without very strong willpower, yes... impossible, no.

 

[fastandbulbous]

Sorry this is a bit off topic, but it will eventually lead to a (sort of) relevant point

He means that he believes that the Holocaust did not kill 6 million Jews

rachamim18;

Is there a post where he actually says the text in dark red above. My wife is Jewish, and never had any great aunts or uncles because of the Holocaust. I know this is purely subjective, but how the fuck can you take a person seriously, or not doubt their ability to be able to form a coherent arguement if they believe shite like that above. Anybody who is a Holocaust denier is, in my opionion, someone who is incapable of inferring a logically correct supposition when presented with facts. If they can be so wrong about something like that, how can you take their opinion as having anything to do with facts when it comes to drug use.

Please point to where he made that statement, as I wouldn't like to start treating someone as an ignorant fuckwit without proof of their beliefs.

I'll stop after this last couple of sentances, as I know it's off topic, but anyone that can deny something so fucking blatently obvious, doesn't deserve to be taken at their word when it comes to any other topic

 

[elysees]

Most of us know that the vast majority of addicts just cannot use again recreationaly - common sense dictates this even if scientific facts fail to confirm it!

Lots of great thoughts in this thread, after reading through most of it, I think this quote basically sums it up perfect.