Long term LSD abuse

[Ismene]

You are clearly just trying to protect MDMA, a very hard chemical.

Can you explain what you mean by the totally non-scientific term "a very hard chemical"? Do you have any idea what you are talking about?

This is the problem - when you're clueless about something and you hear your mate say "It's a very hard chemical brah" you tend to believe him because that's the best information you have. Tell me what you understand by the term "very hard". One more thing - presumably you used the word "chemical" because you thought it sounded more dangerous than "drug"? Let me tell you something..water is a chemical - did you know that?

Here's Professor David Nutt - the main scientific expert on drugs in the UK at the moment:

"I always assumed that, when properly designed studies were carried out, we would find ecstasy does not cause brain damage" - Professor David Nutt

Now, that's not my opinion remember - that's the opinion of the leading expert on drugs in the country.

after many valid and respectable research papers

That's the problem mate - as Professor Nutt is telling you - there arn't many valid and respectable papers.

 

[Ismene]

just to point out that pills and mdma were the cheapest back in 2006/2007 that i've ever seen them and there was great quality round then. mdma has come back in the uk in a big way and is still cheap and pure. meph explosion was just a temporary mdma supply blip around two years ago not five in the uk anyway...

Nah, latest research done in 2011 said Ecstasy use was practically none existent in 2011 and use had fallen massively over the last decade. And genuine ecstasy certainly isn't cheap - someone was probably selling you pips.

Ecstasy, the third most popular drug after cannabis and cocaine, now usually contains no ecstasy at all. "It's a rare drug now, MDMA," says Aimes. "There are hundreds of thousands of tablets in circulation in the UK that look like ecstasy tablets, but which actually contain piperazines [a formerly uncontrolled class of compounds that includes BZP]. . . Piperazines have a similarly euphoric effect, but not to the same degree that ecstasy gives you."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/feb/24/british-drug-use-falling

 

[Ismene]

I'm dumb and don't understand.

^
This

 

[Okami]

I take quotes out of context because I'm really wrong and can't handle criticism from strangers on the internet without resorting to being petty. One would really assume that if I can't have intelligent discussion without the need to make myself feel better by being a dick, that I wouldn't be able to make an informed decisions of what substances I should be taking.

^ This

I have various family members that are biologists, one being specifically a biochemist during postdoctoral research. Its common practice to discard results that don't back your hypothesis and redoing the test until you find evidence that does. They don't forge any results they merely only report the ones that suit them. If this can be done by anti drugs researchers it can be done by pro-drug researchers as well... Do some tests of your own and then and only the

Anyway lets get back on topic....

 

[Folley]

Can you explain what you mean by the totally non-scientific term "a very hard chemical"? Do you have any idea what you are talking about?

Do you?

OK, so you realize that MDMA releases serotonin, correct? And you realize that serotonin is nessicary to keep our moods positive and in balance, and to make our body function the way its supposed too. Still following me?

So then, how is it that MDMA causes no damage to the brain, when it releases the most important chemical in the brain, and destroys the receptors that receive it and make it work? And how is it that the neurotoxic metabolite of MDMA, Alpha-Methyldopamine, does no damage? And how is it that people who abuse MDMA can have comedowns that lasts for weeks? And how is it that certain people have had severe downregulation of their receptors thats lasts for years?


Just because the omnipotent Isameanie hasnt heard about, doesnt mean it doesnt happen.


ANYWAYS BACK TO THE SUBJECT OF LSD

Someone said that it could cause down regulation on the 5HT receptors, this is true. I heard about that, but didnt see the study to back it up. Chronic use of LSD will harm the axons it is activating

 

[Ismene]

And you realize that serotonin is nessicary to keep our moods positive

No, as I've already told you the most recent antidepressants are based on drugs that DECREASE the amount of serotonin in the brain. Are you actually reading anything I post? You keep posting the same ideas that you had at the start of the thread even tho I've proved you wrong countless times.

Just because the omnipotent Isameanie hasnt heard about, doesnt mean it doesnt happen.

Professor David Nutt hasn't heard about it either. Neither has the biggest study ever done into Ecstasy research. We should listen to the great Folly? Sure.

Someone said that it could cause down regulation on the 5HT receptors, this is true.


LSD? I don't think so.

Chronic use of LSD will harm the axons it is activating

What do you mean by "chronic" use? Do you know that LSD stops working if you try taking it all the time?

 

[Ismene]

I have various family members that are biologists

Great man. I'm happy for you. Family get-togethers must be fun.

Now go back and read the link to the biggest study ever done in Ecstasy research and then get back to us. Then read what Professor David Nutt said.

One more thing, don't take things so personally. I didn't have anything to do with that study or Professor Nutt. It's not my fault they think you're wrong. Try and make arguments based on the evidence rather than personal likes and dislikes. It's a much better way to finding the truth.


Anyway lets get back on topic

Great. Once again, for anyone wanting sensible information on E, read the study on the biggest research ever done into Ecstasy and what conclusions it came to.

 

[Folley]

Yes, thats why antidepressants are extremely bad and should never be prescribed, but they still are. You think that means they are safe? Hell no. Like I already said, SSRIs cause this damage over periods of years with everyday use. MDMA can do this at a higher level, with weekly, or even monthly use.



What Mr. Nuttjob was talking about, is that when MDMA is used safely there is no damage. Thats using harm reduction supplements, proper spacing, low dosage, no redosing, with plenty of water and everything else you need, for a harm reduction study, that is. Do you know anyone that rolls like that? There arnt many.

People roll every week however, and that constant flood of serotonin out has no time to regenerate back, so the damage adds up, as people take more pills every week to deal with their tolerance.



And now you havent heard of LSD causing problems, so you just deny that with no reason why, too. You can keep dosing LSD everyday, by the end you might not even notice a high anymore but you can still place a blotter in your mouth. Just because you dont get high, doesnt mean the chemical isnt working and making changes to your brain.


Chronic use is at least weekly, or more.




What makes this study so good, and all other ones fake? You would think someone who took psychedelics would have a more open mind.

 

[Ismene]

What Mr. Nuttjob

Oh I get it - anyone who disagrees with your pet theories is a nutjob. It doesn't matter what anyone says does it - you know more than Professor Nutt. Right.

And now you havent heard of LSD causing problems

No, causing brain damage..to the "axons" as you put it.

You can keep dosing LSD everyday

Sure, but realistically how many do? Why not try and talk about reality instead of your personal fantasies?

Chronic use is at least weekly, or more

Is it? There's plenty of people who dose weekly for many months at a time and feel perfectly fine. Are you saying they are brain damaged?

What makes this study so good, and all other ones fake?

Because it looked at ALL the other studies and examined their methodology,data and conclusions. Why are you so resistant to the idea that MDMA is a pretty benign drug?

You would think someone who took psychedelics would have a more open mind.

I have an open mind - I used to believe just the same as you. Then I read a few studies, read up on their methods (like injecting 6g into a brain within 4 days and claiming it was a casual recreational dose) and I started to question things. You should too.

 

[Folley]

Wow. You still cant understand?


Use and abuse are two different things, what Nutt wanted to show is that
when used responsibly
MDMA is safe. If it is not used responsibly however, it will still cause high levels of damage, as proved by other studies.

Just because a study comes along that says a drug is safe, when used a certain way, doesnt mean that its safe. This doesnt disprove other major studies, its the exception that proves the rule. Its true with amphetamine, its true with caffeine and vitamins, even your precious water; if you use any drug once, at low levels, with plenty of safety guidelines, there is no damage. But with repeated use, your brain adapts to the changes being made to it every week, and if your releasing mass amounts of serotonin, it will adjust to that. Which is not necessarily a good thing.

Is it? There's plenty of people who dose weekly for many months at a time and feel perfectly fine. Are you saying they are brain damaged?

You should know that Im not. Are you saying that its impossible for LSD to cause negative changes, AKA, damage to the brain?




Thats what this thread is about. Are you ADD? Because in any thread you post in, it turns into a completely off topic and random argument with seemingly no point to the original question.

I dont give a fuck how often most people take acid, I dont give a fuck that most people receive no perceivable damage to their brains (other than HPPD), Im talking about possible damage that can occur.

Once again, if we know what causes conditions like HPPD and the delusions of grandeur caused by LSD, than we can create treatments and find supplements to help. To say this drug is completely, 100% safe for your brain is totally ignorant. Caffeine isnt completely safe for your brain. Neither is that sugar that you love so much.

So why is one of the most powerful psychedelics, that causes obvious changes in the way we think and perceive reality/the world around us, just A-OK to use as often as you want, as long as your tolerance doesnt get in the way?


Just answer that. Think it over before you do.

 

[Jesusgreen]

Guys can we please stick to the topic of LSD abuse rather than MDMA? I do have a few thoughts of my own to add, but I don't want to send the conversation further off track, so if you guys ever take it over to Ecstasy Discussion drop me a link.

I personally don't think it's likely that psychedelics would cause the kind of receptor down-regulation due to oxidative stress that MDMA is thought to produce. I do feel with anything, enough use can be damaging, but I think the question of how or why when it comes to psychedelics is something we can't really speculate very usefully on until there are more long term studies. If you look at frequent (by frequent I'm referring to dosing once a week or more) psychedelic users, you'll often see negative side-effects, ranging from simply being "a little eccentric" to cognitive problems - however it's hard to say if this is long lasting damage caused by the drugs, or just simply the fact that tripping once a week doesn't allow the body and brain time to recover yet.

From my own experience, I didn't feel tripping roughly once a week was good for me when I did it, and I did have some trouble with memory and cognition during that time (albeit nothing that would cause major concern) - but it disappeared very rapidly as soon as I took a short break. I feel the problems I were experiencing were from lack of recovery and healthy lifestyle, rather than lasting changes in the brain.

Another example of this would be if you look at long term psychedelic use vs long term MDMA use (okay, I said change subject and I'm coming back to it constantly, I know! ) you'll see that people never really complain about not being able to get "the magic" back with psychedelics, while it's troubled MDMA users since MDMA first began to be used as a recreational drug. Receptor down-regulation caused by MDMA seems to be a long lasting issue, although studies seem to suggest that the receptors will recover given a bit of time, this is a stark contrast to psychedelics where the only factor that comes into play seems to be tolerance itself.

These are just my thoughts of course

 

[Ismene]

Wow. You still cant understand?
Use and abuse are two different things, what Nutt wanted to show is that
You should know that Im not. Are you saying that its impossible for LSD to cause negative changes, AKA, damage to the brain?
.

As far as I can tell Foll, your argument seems to be "If it is theoretically possible for someone to take enough MDMA or LSD to in some way damage themselves, that means they are dangerous chemicals".

Now, just step back and think about that for a minute my old mate Foll. Can you name a single substance on the face of this earth that if you TAKE ENOUGH of it, isn't going to cause you some kind of "damage"? Do you know what happens if you drink too much water? Your brain explodes and you die. Does that mean water is a "very hard chemical" that can cause brain damage?


I dont give a fuck how often most people take acid, I dont give a fuck that most people receive no perceivable damage to their brains (other than HPPD), Im talking about possible damage that can occur.

But that's batshit crazy. Why would you take the most insane, extreme theoretical possibility and then tell everyone thats what they have to worry about? FFS, some people have walked out the door one night and been killed by serial killers - does that mean we should worry about being attacked by a serial killer every time we walk to the shop? It's not going to fucking happen - don't worry so much. It's ruining your mental health worrying about it.

Neither is that sugar that you love so much.

Not sure where you got the idea that I love sugar but yes, I do like a little sugar on my porridge in a morning. I admit it.

So why is one of the most powerful psychedelics, that causes obvious changes in the way we think and perceive reality/the world around us, just A-OK to use as often as you want, as long as your tolerance doesnt get in the way?

Why do you think LSD causing obvious changes in the way we think and percieve is automatically bad for you? Lots of things cause obvious changes in the way we think and percieve. Try sleeping, Try meditation, try running a marathon, try chanting. Must these things be dangerous? Or is it just because LSD is a "drug" and the police have told you all your life that taking drugs isn't natural and must be dangerous for you?

 

[Ismene]

.

If you look at frequent (by frequent I'm referring to dosing once a week or more) psychedelic users, you'll often see negative side-effects, ranging from simply being "a little eccentric" to cognitive problems - however it's hard to say if this is long lasting damage caused by the drugs, or just simply the fact that tripping once a week doesn't allow the body and brain time to recover yet.

From my own experience, I didn't feel tripping roughly once a week was good for me when I did it, and I did have some trouble with memory and cognition during that time (albeit nothing that would cause major concern) - but it disappeared very rapidly as soon as I took a short break.

I think it all depends on the person and why they're tripping tho JG. If a 14 year old has just got his first acid and takes it every week simply because it's better than huffing glue, that's one thing. If a 35 year old man takes it every week for a month or two because he enjoys the euphoria and only has a month or two before he has to start working at the weekends then that's another. It's all down to the individual. I've taken LSD every week for a month or two and been fine.

But I can't see too many people taking LSD every week for years and years - unless they're eccentric millionaires or they are sleeping with the LSD chemist. Round my way it costs a fair bit of money.

 

[Folley]

But that's batshit crazy. Why would you take the most insane, extreme theoretical possibility and then tell everyone thats what they have to worry about? FFS, some people have walked out the door one night and been killed by serial killers - does that mean we should worry about being attacked by a serial killer every time we walk to the shop? It's not going to fucking happen - don't worry so much. It's ruining your mental health worrying about it.

Uhhh who says Im worrying about it? Once again, you took something completely off topic to undermine my information. Im on to you buddy


ONCE AGAIN, are you saying HPPD, a disorder that can alter your perception for the rest of your life, is NOT a problem? Are you saying we would not be much better off without it? Or that trying to find supplements to help combat those changes is completely not worth the time? Are you saying that it would help no one?

You see I can make blanket statements that make your argument seem stupid as well.


If a drug is causing NOTICEABLE changes to the way our brain functions, how is that a good thing? Sure, all drugs make changes to our brain, but LSD is a DRUG drug. As in, it gets you high. It goes into your 5HT network, and makes changes on how your body functions for multiple hours, and your saying this CANNOT create any damage, at all, at any level of use?


Please leave this thread, if your not going to answer the original question, your not welcome here.

 

[Ismene]

ONCE AGAIN, are you saying HPPD

When did this become about HPDD? You've just pulled this out of your hat in an attempt to sound like you've got a point havn't you. The last post you made was talking about LSD causing damage to "axons".

If a drug is causing NOTICEABLE changes to the way our brain functions, how is that a good thing?

Euphoria, insight, helping mental problems, helping relationships, appreciating nature, finding meaning in your life, helping the terminally ill come to terms with their illness and death. All pretty good things and all have arisen from LSD.

As Mrs Shulgin said "Euphoria is GOOD for you".

Sure, all drugs make changes to our brain, but LSD is a DRUG drug. As in, it gets you high. It goes into your 5HT network, and makes changes on how your body functions for multiple hours

Right. And all the evidence shows it doesn't cause any damage - that's what's so magical about psychedelics. It's almost as if the human brain has been designed to work with these substances.

saying this CANNOT create any damage, at all, at any level of use?

Are you reading my posts at all? You just seem to repeat the same thing. Read my last post again - I said if you take 15,000 mics a day, every day for years on end, you may have problems. But that doesn't mean LSD is a "DRUG drug" or a "very hard chemical". Like I've told you about 10 times now, if you drink a gallons of water every day, you die. That doesn't mean water is dangerous. Y'follow?

 

[webbykevin]

If a drug is causing NOTICEABLE changes to the way our brain functions, how is that a good thing?

Because if i was using a drug and it was making no noticeable changes it wouldn't be working would it ?

The point of taking LSD it that it does make noticeable changes to to the way my brain functions, for the better, it's consciousness expansion.

And the lessons learned from psychedelics and the changes in the way I see the world and perceive my place in it I want to be permanent if they are an improvement on the spoon fed bullshit that the main stream of fear based nanny state culture offered me when i being conditioned as a child, LSD De-conditioned me from that nonsense permanently and gave me a clear view of my own felt experience, that was the whole point.

I took lsd 25 years ago, then once the changes were in place I stopped taking it for 2 decades, but the changes in myself were a blessing and thankfully lasted a lifetime.

But If you call that damage then you completely miss the point of therapeutic psychedelics. If someone took mdma to cure PTSD for example it seems you would prefer those PTSD problems to return at some point to restore the person to what you call normal.

i think you need to stop and have a good think about your position.

 

[Folley]

Thats not what I call damage, and if you read the thread, you would know thats not what Im talking about at all


Tripping is fun, but there are times I would like to be sober.

Im not even talking about the changes to the way you think, Im talking about hard rewiring of the brain. HPPD, thats an obvious change to the way we perceive the world around us, this is not a good thing. Over stimulation of 5HT axons leads to down regulation over time, and Im sure there is more.

That was the purpose of creating this thread, to see which ACTUAL changes are occurring, and where.


Please people, I dont want this to be the third thread out of 3 Ive made in PD that went no where. So for the last time, Im not interested in how psychedelics open up your mind, I can google LSD and find page upon page of acidheads talking about that.

I want to know the mechanism behind the problems that LSD causes, like HPPD for one.

 

[webbykevin]

maybe you should do a phd and then come and share your thesis when its complete/

 

[Folley]

That might just be the smartest thing anyone has ever told me to do with my life, but there is no way these kinds of studies haven't at least been attempted before.

 

[mrhappytripz]

I am 20 years old, I have only taken LSD 8 or 9 times.
After the first time i had flashbacks atleast once a month.After taken it them 7 more times I tally think differently and look at things differently.
But i do understand myself more and the rest of the world to me it has altered my brain quite alot.