Let's talk about the benefits or evils of using antipsychotics/benzos to kill a trip

[Ximot]

/\ is a benzo not going to be of much help in case of a psychotic break? Is a true antipsychotic such as Risperdal the only way out?

I'll quote my own question cos no one has answered...maybe this time someone will?

 

[Januskopf]

A benzo may smoothen the psychosis, but only an antipsychotic drug offers a way out.

Benzos (minor tranquilizers) soothe your emotions. With psychosis emotions are merely a side effect of the real problem, which is your mind going ballistic - so fast and confusing that quality control suffers.

Antipsychotics (major tranquilizers) actually slow down your mind and makes it more monotonous.

Thats nothing you would want recreationally ofcourse, but when your mind is all over the place it helps you chill out and make more sense of it all.

Thorazine shouldn't be used anymore, its an outdated and highly dysphoric drug.

Risperdal is a modern antipsychotic, but I think unless you're schizophrenic it isn't as good as it is hyped up to be.

In case of drug psychosis (which has a sudden onset and only has "positive" symptoms of arousal) I'm a believer in highly potent neuroleptics that act on dopamine D2, such as most notably haloperidol (Haldol) which can be added to with other drugs for specific effects.

For drug psychosis, a combination with a benzodiazepine comes to mind. To be precise, the equivalent of diazepam 10mg combined with the equivalent of 2mg haloperidol, and this once or twice daily.

If someone is raging out of control theres nothing you can do, but if someone is in a confusional/delusional state without danger this combo might help a great deal. Any mental problem which remains after 48 hours after a trip wears off should be brought to medical attention.

 

[lovebrisvegas]

Can you get trip killing drugs legally?? Or do we have to go blackmarket lol

 

[JayJohnson]

Yeah - I'll apologize for being a little bristly. I'd been drinking and booze makes me want to ruffle feathers. The devils advocate is a fun actor to play sometimes. Sorry.

I do think we are having a basic difference in concept of `bad trip` - or what constitutes `make it stop time.` In that I'm not familiar with situations ya'll been talking about with serious need for interventions.

My friends dogs (my personal source of highest regarded info on the subject) - always practiced tripping solo, in secure safe environments. So we've never had to see someone go violent or need *help* of this sort.

No more booze for me again (I'm much more likeable that way!) - so I'll just hope I can get one point across - I'm all for the harm reduction we're talking about. My friend's dog is very comfortable that his routines and rituals regarding psychedelics should never require a `stop trip` pharmaceutical. To each their own, and there's plenty to be learned here about those oh-so-important `be prepared` trip emergency kits.

Peas and Safety,
Jay

 

[lovebrisvegas]

What about MDMA?

How many times have you seen a fucked up person given a pill?

MDMA forces you to be happy!

 

[Youkai]

Yeah - I'll apologize for being a little bristly. I'd been drinking and booze makes me want to ruffle feathers. The devils advocate is a fun actor to play sometimes. Sorry.

I do think we are having a basic difference in concept of `bad trip` - or what constitutes `make it stop time.` In that I'm not familiar with situations ya'll been talking about with serious need for interventions.

My friends dogs (my personal source of highest regarded info on the subject) - always practiced tripping solo, in secure safe environments. So we've never had to see someone go violent or need *help* of this sort.

No more booze for me again (I'm much more likeable that way!) - so I'll just hope I can get one point across - I'm all for the harm reduction we're talking about. My friend's dog is very comfortable that his routines and rituals regarding psychedelics should never require a `stop trip` pharmaceutical. To each their own, and there's plenty to be learned here about those oh-so-important `be prepared` trip emergency kits.

Peas and Safety,
Jay

Man, even tripping alone its good to have something to abort/dampin a trip. Iv been on some REALY high dosed trips (various substances) and have TRUELY needed to calm my self down, your mind IS fragile at those doses and even the slightest bit of deprograming can have sever effects when you come back down, this one time I was on a DOI/DOB combo and mistakenly smoked some weed @ the 7th hour to try to wind down and my entire world just crumbled, I had the "fear" and it wouldnt go away. I wasnt realy in harm or in any way going to harm someone else but my mind was about to snap completely I was stuck in my own thought of complete bewilderment and nothing was adding up, I actualy think I forgot I took any psychedelics and that I was just loosing it. I destroyed a book I was reading by writing comeplete nonsense in it with a magic marker trying to capture the intence moment but nothing I wrote made sense, alot of it was backwards and spiraled (the half assed attempts at sentences were writen in a spiral which was all but impossable to read). Luckely I just started to experiement with bezos and was able to blink in to reality enough to take some Kpins and calm my self down, if I staied in that complete manic state Im sure I would be alot worse off then I am now for forcing my self out of it. words cant describe the mania and panic one can experience in a psychedelic state and Iv stuck with it befor and almost 2 years later STILL am trying to intergrate it back into me. Some things just arnt intergratable and those types of experiences cant be erased. they become part of you regaurdless of how non classafiable they are.

 

[Ximot]

MDMA forces you to be happy!

some people do not like feeling forced.... and despite the truth of what you are saying it is not unheard of that folks have very uncomfortable times on MDMA ....

 

[Januskopf]

What about MDMA?

How many times have you seen a fucked up person given a pill?

MDMA forces you to be happy!

oooh man, talking about wrong ideas! If someone has a bad trip and a roll is added to that, intensity will go through the roof! As intensity almost always is the main culprit (well, ego resistance on a deeper level) it may well add to the problems.

And someone who is psychotic doesn't need MDMA. The gush of serotonin might feel nice but will only complicate things and the dopamine surge is the last thing a psychotic person needs.

Even heroin would be a better choice than MDMA.

 

[fastandbulbous]

^^ When someone is that out of control how are you going to administer a pill? Crush it up and put it in a syringe?

I am talking about extreme cases and extreme cases are beyond take a pill.
When someone goes violent they are usually delusional psychotic and think the whole world is against them and they usally aren’t in the mood for a pill and a cup of tea.
You usually have 2 choices when things get that extreme, have the police deal with it or deal with it like you would loved ones and try to keep them out of trouble until they come down.
The rainbow family has probably dealt with more trip freak outs then any hospital, clinic or any place in the world over the past 30 years with no deaths, serious injuries. They have a very good system that has devolved over 30 years of much use and testing.

If pills work for you then have at them. I just don’t much benefit from them.

You learn to recognize which ones will progress to completely losing the plot and intervene before that point. A few minutes of communicating with them beforehand is a pretty good indicator of where they're going (reading body language as well as what they're saying). That's when you offer them the pharmacological 'get out of jail free' card.

Of course if they don't accept it, then ending up restrained (in whatever form) is de facto their choice. It's the option to be able to influence the outcome that's important

 

[e1evene1even]

a 'bad trip' is essentially a psychotic episode triggered by a psychedelic. They can be very damaging and there is no value in letting them continue

I've thought quite a bit about this lately. I believe the true value of antipsychotics is for exactly the situation you describe.

I'm curious to hear people's opinions on whether they think timely administration of a 5-HT2A antagonist could prevent long-term 'psychedelic-precipitated psychoses'?

In my opinion, if a person has a psychotic break 2 hours into a DOx/LSD trip etc., having an intense trip on top of that for another 10+ hours could very well cause permanent harm and greatly increases the chance that the psychotic break/schizophrenic episode will be permanent.

Tonight I'll be getting some Risperidone. I hope I'll never need to use it, but I think it could be a valuable addition to my psychonaut's toolbox. For 99% of bad trips where chemical intervention is necessary, I think benzos are the first choice and after my recent experience, I'm relieved to know they work very well.

 

[neverstop]

I've never felt the need for a safety net for me, but I'm increasingly seeing the benefit of having something available for others.
My gf's sister freaked out quite badly last night and ended up being sedated at the hospital. I still maintain that we could have dealt with it but somebody else interfered while we're were on our way home and the situation went beyond our control. If we'd had something with us we could have at least calmed her down so she wouldn't have been so conspicuous in public.

DUDE! same thing happened to me! my friend was twisted of some quality P. Cubenis and acting strange and some other people i know who are hella preppy and just drink hella beer and snort way too much coke as an alternative to weed decide that he needs an ambulance and i try and tell them that he's gonna be fine in like 3 hours and some coked out whore just looks up and callls me an INSENSATIVE ASSHOLE!

seriously: FUCK INEXPERIENCED RICH KIDS!

 

[neverstop]

I've thought quite a bit about this lately. I believe the true value of antipsychotics is for exactly the situation you describe.

I'm curious to hear people's opinions on whether they think timely administration of a 5-HT2A antagonist could prevent long-term 'psychedelic-precipitated psychoses'?

In my opinion, if a person has a psychotic break 2 hours into a DOx/LSD trip etc., having an intense trip on top of that for another 10+ hours could very well cause permanent harm and greatly increases the chance that the psychotic break/schizophrenic episode will be permanent.

Tonight I'll be getting some Risperidone. I hope I'll never need to use it, but I think it could be a valuable addition to my psychonaut's toolbox. For 99% of bad trips where chemical intervention is necessary, I think benzos are the first choice and after my recent experience, I'm relieved to know they work very well.

which benzo's work best cause my friend has a script to flexeril (cyclobenzoprine) so should i just go with that or try and seek out somethin else? Also what would be good dosage? doctor recomended (10mg) or higher?

 

[swilow]

Tonight I'll be getting some Risperidone. I hope I'll never need to use it, but I think it could be a valuable addition to my psychonaut's toolbox. For 99% of bad trips where chemical intervention is necessary, I think benzos are the first choice and after my recent experience, I'm relieved to know they work very well.

Yep, I'm going to keep Seroquel and valium handy at all times from now on.

 

[MDPVagrant]

I guess the reason why I get so uppity about hearing people incessantly worrying about how to kill a trip, is because to me, it would be the equivalent of, say, being in the middle of some traumatic event, like a bank robbery, and rather than staying alert to it all, you just take an antipsychotic and pass the fuck out so you don't have to witness the robbery.

Say WHAT? Do you consider the content of a trip somehow 'external' to you or something?

P.S. IME Seroquel is useful not only for psychedelics, but will kill a stimulant "trip" as well. I mean like cocaine, amphetamines, that sort of thing. Tends to kill the stim high so completely that doing more stims won't overcome it and the only thing left to do is go to bed (a very good thing). Anyone who reads this, try a low dose first (~25-50mg) as it can work at such dosages... it's like the stim sensitizes you to it or something.

 

[MDPVagrant]

^^ excellent point.

A buddy of mine and I have been discussing this trend for a while and have also been quite irked by it.

If you aren't confident enough to trip without that benzo on hand then its the wrong time to be tripping.

Or maybe tripping is not for you.

There are other ways to acheive altered states, even psychedelic ones. Meditation works wonders, if you have the wherewithal to give it the right dedication.

^^^^^ QFT... meditation is actually just as "good" as psychedelics, and requires a hell of a lot more dedication. Maybe that is a 'good thing' as well, eh? Only the dedicated even consider meditation long-term, and only the VERY dedicated are rewarded (much). As someone who has been there, here's a bit of a secret: Imagine euphoria so intense that it's physically painful after a while. Meditation, and just about any other "state" is available (including 'no-state', of course).

 

[squerll]

To me keeping stuff around to kill trips seems like. If someone was going to the psychiatrist to learn about them self and they take earplugs and keep on foot in the doorway and as soon as they hear something they don’t like they put on the earphones and run out the door.
I think if you don’t want to disturb your delusions of your self you shouldn’t be doing psychedelics. If you do enough psychedelics Eventually you will find out it all you, why run away from your self you will always be followed for the rest of your life.

 

[Xorkoth]

Extremely good point. I guess it's partially a question of whether you're tripping to discover yourself and solve your issues, or if you're tripping for recreation.

 

[Recept]

To me keeping stuff around to kill trips seems like. If someone was going to the psychiatrist to learn about them self and they take earplugs and keep on foot in the doorway and as soon as they hear something they don’t like they put on the earphones and run out the door.
I think if you don’t want to disturb your delusions of your self you shouldn’t be doing psychedelics. If you do enough psychedelics Eventually you will find out it all you, why run away from your self you will always be followed for the rest of your life.

Nice analogy for using antipsychotics the wrong way, but I'd say it's still justified to keep them at hand in case someone suffers a psychotic break while under the influence.

 

[Xorkoth]

^True. It's the difference between keeping them, not expecting to use them unless the unthinkable happens, or keeping them around knowing that you'll probably use them at some point, or that there's a decent chance you will, if you start to feel nervous.

 

[squerll]

^ I guess a lot of people in our culture are tripping for recreation. When I fist started doing psychedelics it was about fun and escape. I think when you start carrying escape routes with you, you have an idea of where it can go and maybe someone should reconsider.

As far as dealing with someone else’s bad trip, I don’t know that is a complicated subject. I’ve had to do it a few times and it is not fun at all…. Especially when you’re tripping your face off.