Let's talk about the benefits or evils of using antipsychotics/benzos to kill a trip

[e1evene1even]

I know its probably already been said, but simply having these on hand is often enough to stop any anxiety from building into a panic attack. Simply knowing you could use them if absolutely necessary is extremely comforting.

I've had some benzos for over a year and have never used them while tripping (maybe once or twice to sleep when a trip is over). I plan to get some Risperdal soon for absolute emergencies, if one were to ever arise (police encounters, life and death situations requiring sobriety, psychotic break, accidental overdose etc.)

I'd be curious to know the difference between a "psychotic break" and a really intense bad trip (although I'd rather not gain that knowledge through personal experience )

 

[treebear]

If someone has to have anti-psychotics on hand before a trip they have no business doing psychedelics…
It seems like some people only want to see nice pretty things about them selves but when reality comes up they want to kill it and run away and hide in their delusions.

Psychedelics are about self-discovery and awareness. So why would you try to kill a trip because it makes you aware of something? If you don’t want to be aware you have no business doing drugs that promote awareness. Stick to your Coors light and Benzos.

 

[Youkai]

As much as I agree, I can't see much reason for re-experiencing horrific events that fucked you up the first time you experienced. I believe that negative occurrences from the past should be worked through, but not on a high dose of LSD. I had some difficulties in my childhood that I had to work through soberly, because the psychedelic state is so different to sobriety that it seems what you learn there, applies there. This reality is different and requires a different approach. However, working throuhg spiritual and existential fear which I think is almost the worst fear) is something that can be thoughlrly achieved with psychedelics . I prefer smoked DMT for the short duration and seeming lack of tolerance even when repeating multiple times daily-though I would never extend this over more then two to three days.

And as youkai said, sometimes having your senses smeared via a psychedelic is not only therapeutic, but absolutely great, SAFE, fun- and when I've desired that, its been fun to simply get messy with benzo's, speed, alchohol and (usually) LSD. All in careful doses- I don't want to blackout or lose control, but simply lose my mind gently for a while. Its a great relief.

You said it, and might I add (purely self opinion) that therapy work with psychedelics (grof) is just as big of a down fall to them as a chemical weapon. Why would I say something so off the wall? because it honestly limits there use, power and appplications. These are SPIRITUAL tools/sacriments which can allow you to examine (in this society) a part of you which shows that ALL of you is devine. These are not therapeutic knives used to desect your own thoughts to the point of what??? Happyness? well, that is an ignorant sort of happyness. I dont know one therapist who would incourage you to drop out, most people go because they hvae trouble in there lives, these same lives which are so embedded in society... I just cant see using a psychedelic to make that managable and still being used to its true potential.

 

[JayJohnson]

I'd be curious to know the difference between a "psychotic break" and a really intense bad trip (although I'd rather not gain that knowledge through personal experience )

Yeah - I think that's where this discussion is getting confused.

What is *your* defination of a bad trip?

I *like* the scary-as-hell. Like a roller coaster, I guess scary movies do it for some, others sky-dive. I think part of a regular/healthy trip can include soul-deep fear.

In MY opinion, if you need to use a pharmaceutical to stop a trip right in the middle (not for making a pleasant comedown), you either:

a) weren't prepared: mentally (research research research) or setting wise
b) took too damn much to begin with!

Be smart, or natural selection might out-smart you. Never can be said enough: Psychedelics are not fucking toys.

 

[Solipsis]

My latest acid trip was my highest dose yet: 4 potent blotters.
I'm sorry to say I didn't get my motives straight on forehand and did
quite some meditating in that trip. Until I approached my peak and felt
I was hanging on to a thread before getting blasted into oblivion and transcendental ego-death. I witnessed an elevator to some type of heaven being built and was on the brink of getting an instant ride. Just then I seemed to get uncertain of the rules of the game (so to speak!!!!), becoming concerned I might need more time too integrate the experience than I was willing to spend. I aborted the meditation but was very unsettled, I felt like a child who was unclear if it was allowed to continue the trip on a good note or if things kept spinning out of control anyway. I became paranoid that I was being held out of some loop, seemingly stuck and lightly panicking. Then I went out for some fresh air, getting scared the living shit out of me by an uninformed housemate. I returned inside and started writing and drawing theories about lifeforces, trust and yin-yang. I felt like this is the point where others might not have wanted to put in the effort, but being experienced I knew I had to resolve this myself. The conclusion was I had to put absolute unconditional faith in myself so that I myself could give it back to myself. This sounds weird but I derived it from the yin-yang symbol and in the next half hour I talked myself to the top of the world again. The trip was awesome and I could hack reality matrix-style to rematerialize everything as I saw fit. Only thing was, it lasted a fucking long time and in bed my body was still totally amped. Finally I decided to take the one nitrazepam I have been reserving for more than a year and my CNS found the rest to get a little shuteye. Now I have 2 types of benzo's for the exact same purpose, and for a future DOB experiment.

This story is my illustration of how I feel about this matter, when you need to calm down your body it's OK but walking away from some issue is just immature and like Church says if you resort to that as soon as you can, maybe you are not fit to deal with the complete experience and do not deserve to continue. Church is not being elitist, psychedelics are.

 

[e1evene1even]

If someone has to have anti-psychotics on hand before a trip they have no business doing psychedelics…
It seems like some people only want to see nice pretty things about them selves but when reality comes up they want to kill it and run away and hide in their delusions.

For the most part I agree with you, but there is a BIG difference between someone that "has to have anti-psychotics on hand before a trip" and a responsible person that sees the benefit of having them as part of their psychonaut tool-kit.

To use an analogy, a person who has to have a fire extinguisher near them before they will use the stove may have no business in the kitchen, but this is much different than someone that has one in case its needed. Don't forget, the main focus of Bluelight is harm reduction and there is no doubt that in some cases anti-psychotics such as Risperidone, can certainly reduce harm but just like psychedelics if used improperly they can also cause harm.

For those that haven't seen it:
MAPS PRESENTS:
Working with difficult psychedelic experiences

 

[swilow]

In MY opinion, if you need to use a pharmaceutical to stop a trip right in the middle (not for making a pleasant comedown), you either:

a) weren't prepared: mentally (research research research) or setting wise
b) took too damn much to begin with!

But either of those reasons is not a good enough one to suggest that experiencing psychosis is benficial. Thats the general consensus- for harm reduction when taking psychedelic drugs in any dose, have at least benzo's on hand- and defintely try to have an anti-psychotic. Myself, I've seroquel (a few tabs) that I have never touched. But I certainly will if violence breaks out. For panic, I will breathe, distract, meditate/trance- if the panic overwhelms into near-psychotic terror, then I will eat a benzo. That said, only reality has ever caused me to need a benzo- I never take them when tripping.

 

[strigoi]

I personally always have a few xanax or other benzo around anytime me or someone I know trips. Of course I also have ativan with me 24/7 due to that I had been diagnost (sp?) with anxiety disorder in my late teens. I very rarely take any of them, but the fact I know they are there are actually much more comfting than taking them.

I consider it just part of my trip preperation because in the event I would have to have them, which i have done before when I took 3 hits of acid i was told weak and it turned out to be quite strong. I also have it around for when new people "turn on" , just because me , my friends and others handle there experince ok doesn't mean everyone does. I see nothing wrong with that

 

[Youkai]

But either of those reasons is not a good enough one to suggest that experiencing psychosis is benficial. Thats the general consensus- for harm reduction when taking psychedelic drugs in any dose, have at least benzo's on hand- and defintely try to have an anti-psychotic. Myself, I've seroquel (a few tabs) that I have never touched. But I certainly will if violence breaks out. For panic, I will breathe, distract, meditate/trance- if the panic overwhelms into near-psychotic terror, then I will eat a benzo. That said, only reality has ever caused me to need a benzo- I never take them when tripping.

you never mixed your bozos with soem psychedelics just for teh fun of it? I can easily eat 15 hits of LSD with as little as 2mg of Kpins. Just takes the edge off of the come up and alllows for a more easily intergrated experiences.


As I "THINK" I was agreeing with you earlier, I smoke DMT now for my mega huge trips.

 

[swilow]

^Well, I've taken xanax before DMT smokes (for absolute amnesia ) many times, and xanax once on LSD and meth, and recently, seeing as I'm on diazepam daily, mushrooms and mescaline- but generally I don't. Its not like I won't; I usually don't need to. At the moment I'm withdrawing so I sort of have to... I have enjoyed benzo's for fun, but I've also completely fucked up on them so there no longer a recreational option.

 

[Jamshyd]

Be smart, or natural selection might out-smart you. Never can be said enough: Psychedelics are not fucking toys.

Can we tone it down on the social darwinism? Many of us find it irritating, backwards thinking. Ok, thanks.

With out of the way, have you read any of the examples posted?

When someone's trip reaches the stage of them trying to harm themselves or harm others, its not a "thrill" or a learning experience.

 

[fastandbulbous]

I *like* the scary-as-hell. Like a roller coaster, I guess scary movies do it for some, others sky-dive. I think part of a regular/healthy trip can include soul-deep fear.

In MY opinion, if you need to use a pharmaceutical to stop a trip right in the middle (not for making a pleasant comedown), you either:

a) weren't prepared: mentally (research research research) or setting wise
b) took too damn much to begin with!

Be smart, or natural selection might out-smart you. Never can be said enough: Psychedelics are not fucking toys.

As Jamshyd mentions, have you read the other posts giving specific cases where an anti-psychotic can be a godsend? Have you any concept of what a fully-fledfged psychotic brak on psychedelics even is?

As for your reasons, there are several you've missed out (whether intentionally or not, I don't know), but something like seeing a gruesome road traffic accident, or accidentally ending up being confronted by violent fuckwits is the sort of thing that can trigger such an episode in someone. How do you prepare for that? You can't, so it's a ghood idea to have access to a drug that will terminate the psychedelic experience on hand, just in case.

If you can't see the reasoning behind that, then I'm at a loss for words...

PS Being 'smart' (in this context) smacks of some sort of elitism; IMO, 'aware' is a much better word

 

[e1evene1even]

Well, last night for the first time I used a benzo to alleviate a "bad trip". I was surprised how well it worked.

Around 5pm I took ~12mg of 2C-T-2 and the trip was very light so after about 4 hours I decided to eat a cannabis cookie. I started to smoke cannabis as well.

After a few more hours, I started to feel pretty uncomfortable (the combination of coming down from 2C-T-2 and cannabis) and eventually this turned into a panic attack. I have only had a few panic attacks in my life and its always extremely unpleasant. I had a terrifying few minutes where I felt like I couldn't breath and my chest was pounding, I decided this would be as good a time as any to see if a benzo would work. 8(

I quickly let 1mg of Klonopin dissolve on my tongue and within a minute the the intense fear started to go away and I could catch my breath. Gradually over the next half an hour I became increasingly calm and whatever residual psychedelic effects I had from the 2C-T-2 I took 7 hours earlier faded.

The klonopin worked extremely well, but I also remembered that my only "death-rebirth" experience came after smoking cannabis on a psychedelic and having a panic attack and thought perhaps I might have missed something.

I'm not really sure if this classifies as a bad trip because the psychedelic effects were minimal, but either way the end results were the same.

 

[fastandbulbous]

Well, last night for the first time I used a benzo to alleviate a "bad trip". I was surprised how well it worked.

I'm not really sure if this classifies as a bad trip

Distressing, anxious, possibly challenging then no; a 'bad trip' is essentially a psychotic episode triggered by a psychedelic. They can be very damaging and there is no value in letting them continue

 

[e1evene1even]

What is *your* defination of a bad trip?

I think there are differing definitions on this. Personally I enjoy challenging and difficult trips (especially with 2C-T-2) and I probably wouldn't use a benzo to end a trip, unless it got really nasty. The difference last night was that the trip was a light +2. I guess it retrospect it probably wasn't a "bad trip at all, but merely an anxiety attack. I don't mind working through difficult issues, but not while my chest is pounding and I can't catch my breath.

I did notice that the klonopin seemed to gradually bring me down and allow me to still confront the anxiety somewhat, where I could imagine an anti-psychotic being a more abrupt stop, that could "freeze" the fear as mentioned above.

After I had mostly come down I was in such a relaxed state I decided to smoke some DMT, which I've had for a while but never really tried more than a few mg because I keep waiting for the right occasion that never comes. I vaporized 10mg and it much much different than I imagined. The swirling colors weren't unexpected but the great feeling of warmth and bliss were. I know 10mg isn't much, but I feel the k-pin allowed me to "break the ice" without anxiety. Perhaps a bit off topic, but the first time I try a breakthrough dose, I might take a small amount of klonopin before hand (0.5mg) to help let go. I think if the first experience is positive the subsequent trips will be much less fearful.

 

[Januskopf]

If you want to get an edge on anxiety in a trip, the equivalent of 5mg Diazepam is fine and often quite a relief.

If a trip is really bad and spinning out of control usually the equivalent of 20-30mg Diazepam is called for.

All benzos are active sublingually and act faster this way. You chew the tablets up and put the mush under your tongue for as long as you're comfortable with before swallowing. 5min is good, 10min is great and 15min ideal.

With the ultimate nightmare trip from hell, where someone not just freaks out but actually hurts people or themselves and no talkdown has any effect, at least two people should jump the flipper and roll him into a blanket (another good reason to have a blanky present) as to restrict his movement, and sit him up flanked by two people while the ambulance is underway. This kind of thing, people going berserk, is very rare though but it does happen.

 

[swilow]

^What if the person is up a tree throwing plates at you? I've had to deal with that Still, no intervention was required, except for the lads girlfriends to plead for him to comedown, from both the acid and tree. He did.

For me, I will take a benzo whenever needed as I have a diagnoses panic disorder; however, when I say need it, that refers to extreme panic. I am relatively unsafe when I am panicking very badly. Anyway, there comes a point where its not actually panic, but some sort of adrenal psychosis- I have 'hallucinated' and had mental delusions from sober panic attacks.

 

[squerll]

The most trips gone bad I have ever seen was at C.A.L.M on the 4th of July at the Rainbow gathering. C.A.L.M is the medical camp and it is also used to treat bad trips. I have never heard of the Rainbows using anti psychotic drugs and they deal with literally hundreds of bad trips a year.
They use the basic methods of calm environment and good vibes. I have seen a few go violent at the gathering and security usually deals with it in a non-violent way and if it is way out of control they duct tape them to a tree.

I have never seen a need for anti psychotics I think that is better for the state mental hospitals and a team of nurses with a syringe and a deluxe padded room to nap in afterwards.

 

[fastandbulbous]

I have seen a few go violent at the gathering and security usually deals with it in a non-violent way and if it is way out of control they duct tape them to a tree.

So that's a better way to deal with someone having what fits in my scheme of things as a psychotic break, rather than using an antipsychotic to end the episode. Taking a pill which will reduce the psychotic symptoms or spending god knows how many hours totally immobilized, tripping your face off and going through Dante's 7th circle of hell.

Tell me, which one would you rater have happen should you ever expeience the naked terror of psychedelic triggered psychosis?

 

[squerll]

^^ When someone is that out of control how are you going to administer a pill? Crush it up and put it in a syringe?

I am talking about extreme cases and extreme cases are beyond take a pill.
When someone goes violent they are usually delusional psychotic and think the whole world is against them and they usally aren’t in the mood for a pill and a cup of tea.
You usually have 2 choices when things get that extreme, have the police deal with it or deal with it like you would loved ones and try to keep them out of trouble until they come down.
The rainbow family has probably dealt with more trip freak outs then any hospital, clinic or any place in the world over the past 30 years with no deaths, serious injuries. They have a very good system that has devolved over 30 years of much use and testing.

If pills work for you then have at them. I just don’t much benefit from them.