Lets talk about Fur baby.

[BloSs0m]

Okay, so basically i have a fur hat.
I love it very much.
In fact, it rocks my world.
It is real fur.

How do you kids react to the whole fur debate?

Basically, I'm all for saving the animals etc etc, BUT i think when it comes to fur, I'm divided - and it all comes down to context.

My fur story goes: A whole assortment of random clothes appeared at my boyfriends house (including the hat). They were all vintage and obviously had been loved over since like, 1963. It was rad. Anyway, this hat, came to me, obviously i didn't actively seek out a fur hat for the purpose of it being fur.

But, my logic is - this animal (i think it's fox) is clearly already dead, it died probably around 30 years ago... It gave it's life for fashion.

But, had Mr. Fox died in a bush in the forest or like, been eaten by bears, then it could never have brought so much joy to how ever many people over the last three decades. And if i had of been given the hat, and said "No! It's fur! Get it away from me!" wouldn't I indeed be disrespecting poor Mr. Fox and the reason he died?

That's my logic.

Obviously there is still a market for fur, and despite the laws and protests, i believe that unfortunatley there always will be... Myself, i don't believe we should STILL in 2007 be killing things for the sake of fashion, especially considering how good some people are getting at making faux fur...

But if it's already dead, wouldn't it be worse to burn or simply throw away these beautiful things, which these animals gave their lives for, rather than letting them live on and be enjoyed and admired for years to come?

So kids, enlighten me.
Let's talk about Fur baby.

 

[joannie_mhm]

I basically agree with you Bloss.

Fur is luxe. If I were in your situation I wouldn't have any qualms about wearing it.

And your fur-as-a-gift-don't-let-mr-fox-die-for-nothing story reminded me of one of the Dalai Lama's (i think the current one...) who, while being vegetarian, if he was presented with a meal containing meat would eat it, basically for the reasons you mentioned.

 

[vanth]

if i had of been given the hat, and said "No! It's fur! Get it away from me!" wouldn't I indeed be disrespecting poor Mr. Fox and the reason he died?

I'm pretty sure in that case you would be respecting Mr Fox and protesting the reason he died. I doubt he wanted to be a hat sitting on your head, and I also doubt he would care how much pleasure he gave the viewing audience.

I find the fact that people get their knickers in a twist over fur, but are perfectly happy to wear a leather belt, etc. a bit hypocritical. However, I'm not well educated on fur-raising practices, so if they're really bad, then perhaps there is something to it.

 

[joannie_mhm]

^I can't be arsed looking but I'm sure PETA has info on how animals are killed for their fur- electrocuted up their rectum is one I've definately heard of =\

 

[vanth]

I should clarify, I don't actually want to know about it either

Also I fucking hate PETA. Their practices are ridiculous, and they end up killing 90% of the animals they confiscate.

 

[Samadhi]

here's some information of fur-farms:

Eighty-five percent of the fur industry’s skins come from animals living captive on fur factory farms. These farms can hold thousands of animals, and the practices used to farm them are remarkably uniform around the globe. As with other intensive-confinement animal farms, the methods used on fur factory farms are designed to maximize profits, always at the expense of the animals.

A video about fur-farms (it's explicit, watched about 2 seconds of it):

http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/video.asp?video=fur_farm&Player=wm&speed=_med

http://www.furisdead.com/ - an interesting website.

I see absolutely no reason for people to be wearing fur today in our society. There are other ways to keep warm aside from supporting practises such as the fur-farming, the animals are treated horridly. I can see why you'd feel less about wearing vintage fur, blossom, and that's cool, it's your choice.

The only flaw i see in your argument is when you say:

which these animals gave their lives for

Mothers will give their lives for their children, soldiers, for eachother...
I'm not sure that they "gave" their lives to be a coat or a hat or a stole?

Personally, i am against wearing any fur (except faux ), and to clarify, i don't wear leather anything either.

Vanth: Can you provide me with a link regarding that percentage? I'd be interested to read it.

 

[vanth]

I'll have a look for it samadhi. I think may have heard it on the PETA episode of Penn & Teller's Bullshit, however.

 

[lostpunk5545]

I should clarify, I don't actually want to know about it either

Also I fucking hate PETA. Their practices are ridiculous, and they end up killing 90% of the animals they confiscate.

Whilst I don't agree with all of PETA's practices, the animal killing debate is pretty stupid.

A) A lot of the animals PETA puts down are unable to be rehabilitated.

B) The rest are killed for the same reason a pound does it. It's just not economical unfortunately to keep a lot of these animals alive. Especially for a non-profit organisation.

So if you care so much think next time and don't buy a pet from a pet store, get it from the pound instead.

And I'd like to see a source for the 90% comment because I'm willing to bet $100 it's a bullshit figure you made up off the top of your head. * Running at the mouth here - sorry *

Newkirk said her organization got involved in North Carolina after learning about conditions at "shelters" there. She said PETA investigators found that non-human animals were dying in the "shelters" or being put to death inhumanely. PETA never opposed euthanising non-human animals who would otherwise die a painful death.

Source

As for fur if it's already a (second hand) hat by all means wear it. But if you buy fur then you are supporting the trade.

 

[CHiLD-0F-THE-BEAT]

This completely applies to me as well.
My favourite coat in the whole world is made of mink.. it's amazingly soft and just the most luxurious thing I could ever think to wear in the stark Melbourne Winters.
I bought it from an Op shop in my home town around ten years ago now, and spent a good hour in other stores trying to settle my mind on whether I would feel OK buying a fur product.

I decided in the end that I wouldn't be furthering the fur market by buying something so vintage, so I bought it.
I didn't buy into a new designers range and have the sale chalked up on their sales figures for the quarter and thus justify animals being slaughtered in the name of fashion and dollars.

I felt quite comfortable giving a new lease of life to what was likely a memory taking up space in someones closet.

***

Bloss --- I'm pretty sure fashion manufacturers wouldn't use fur from anything unsterile. Your argument is a bit flawed there.
I accept the animals were killed for the purpose of the garment. That's the only way it can happen. Roadkill unfortunately can't find its way into some hobo's bag on his way to Donatella's house. It just doesn't work like that.

However, I feel safe in the knowledge that I didn't directly support the fur industry in any way. I'm simply making use out of something that has already been in existance for a long, long time.

And yes, if I had the choice I would prefer however many Mr. or Mrs. minks hadn't died to make the coat. And I would gladly do without it if I could in any way prevent their deaths.
But as far as I can see it, I don't have the power to do that.. so I'll just keep loving it and wearing it.

 

[college_dropout]

Okay, so basically i have a fur hat.
I love it very much.
In fact, it rocks my world.
It is real fur.

How do you kids react to the whole fur debate?

Basically, I'm all for saving the animals etc etc, BUT i think when it comes to fur, I'm divided - and it all comes down to context.

My fur story goes: A whole assortment of random clothes appeared at my boyfriends house (including the hat). They were all vintage and obviously had been loved over since like, 1963. It was rad. Anyway, this hat, came to me, obviously i didn't actively seek out a fur hat for the purpose of it being fur.

But, my logic is - this animal (i think it's fox) is clearly already dead, it died probably around 30 years ago... It gave it's life for fashion.

But, had Mr. Fox died in a bush in the forest or like, been eaten by bears, then it could never have brought so much joy to how ever many people over the last three decades. And if i had of been given the hat, and said "No! It's fur! Get it away from me!" wouldn't I indeed be disrespecting poor Mr. Fox and the reason he died?

That's my logic.

Obviously there is still a market for fur, and despite the laws and protests, i believe that unfortunatley there always will be... Myself, i don't believe we should STILL in 2007 be killing things for the sake of fashion, especially considering how good some people are getting at making faux fur...

But if it's already dead, wouldn't it be worse to burn or simply throw away these beautiful things, which these animals gave their lives for, rather than letting them live on and be enjoyed and admired for years to come?

So kids, enlighten me.
Let's talk about Fur baby.

As long as I can skin your box and wear it as a moustache then it's okay with me.

 

[Klue]

I know someone that handmade a jacket out of fur.

The fur was from rabbits that she had shot herself.

 

[MR Candyslut]

As for Fur is it's already a (second hand) hat by all means wear it. But if you buy Fur then you are supporting the trade.

Really?

But how are others to know whether the piece is vintage or not (notwithstanding that it may evidently look it)? I mean, by wearing fur, regardless of whether you actually paid to have it killed, doesn't it still send out a message of tacit support?

I am not sure. I mean, i understand it is a tad dogmatic to insist you should not wear the fur when it has already been killed, but the whole argument of 'it is already dead' seems a tad shaky, and, in all honesty, quite self-serving.

Not that i am on a particular moral crusade for animals, it's just that if someone is not a.o.k with the fur trade, then i would just think that would stand across the board.

 

[Samadhi]

I agree with Lostpunk. That's why i was interested in that statistic, because i've always believed that the animals either can't be rehabilitated (they've been hurt too badly) or they just can't sustain the sheer volume of animals. The animals are also euthanased in a humane manner, a far more painless death than they would be otherwise facing.

Aside from my ethical aversion to wearing fur - i just don't like the look of fur.

it's just that if someone is not a.o.k with the fur trade, then i would just think that would stand across the board.

That's my take on it too...

 

[lostpunk5545]

Candyslut as far as I'm concerned buying something second hand from an op shop is not supporting the trade. You are not creating demand for new items. Although maybe the person coming into the shop after you may by a new fur item because you bought the last one. I have no defence for that point except that people shopping for fur in op shops probably can't afford a new fur coat and would just do without.

You won't catch me wearing fur regardless, but I think Blossom's stance is somewhat more justifiable than someone in blatant support of the fur trade.

And like it or not as a vegetarian, for things like steel capped work boots, there is no way around buying something at least partially containing leather. It sucks but I searched long and hard for synthetic boots.

 

[vanth]

And I'd like to see a source for the 90% comment because I'm willing to bet $100 it's a bullshit figure you made up off the top of your head.

As I previously said to samadhi, I believe it was a figure quoted by Penn & Teller in their PETA episode of Bullshit.

I'm not going to waste time justifying myself to someone who accuses me of lying just because I don't share the same opinion as you.

 

[MR Candyslut]

You won't catch me wearing fur regardless, but I think Blossom's stance is somewhat more justifiable than someone in blatant support of the fur trade.

No, of course it is. I totally agree. As with anything, there are shades of grey.

Still though, if one doesn't support the fur trade, but yet can make a concession for a particularly fetching hat simply because they were not the one that killed it...?

Well, i guess my point is that it seems like a pretty self-serving way of justifying away their own convictions.

And i should know. Selfish justifications are my forte :D

 

[lostpunk5545]

(Vanth) Sorry my post probably came across as a bit intense, that just happens when I'm speaking about something I'm passionate about. You'll find hundreds of such posts of mine scattered across bluelight. No offence intended

Whilst I enjoyed the Penn and Teller series as a whole I think that was one of their lesser researched episodes. Even Michael Moore recommends that vegetarians just shut up and eat meat in his Dude, Where's My Country? book. It seems hard for people who support eating meat to offer objective view points, it's just all out war. Disappointing really.

 

[vanth]

No, you didn't come across as intense, you came across as rude.

I would have thought someone with such an obvious thirst for knowledge and discussion such as yourself would know how to disagree with someone without childish insults, and respect another person's right to an opinion that differs from yours.

 

[m4dd0g]

If the killing is humane i have no issue with it. Same as leather or any other product.

If i actively was against it i wouldnt wear second hand. Ask yourself:
"Do i not wear fur to save one animal?"
"Do i not buy fur to starve the fur industry by my token X dollars"
"Do i not wear fur because the fur industry is morally wrong and i want to send out a message?"

If its either of the first 2 then sure wear second hand ... if its the last i would not

 

[lostpunk5545]

It wasn't meant as a childish insult, by using the word bullshit I was just inferring that I thought the statistic was false. I'll edit the post if you like or you can just let it stand as testament to my stupidity and social ineptitude.