Legitimate medicines in Sched I

[SKL]

That's what i thought, though i wasn't sure. Is it actually more addictive? I guess you don't get a rush from drinking it like shooting h, so is that why addicts still go buy h off the street?
Give them something as good as or better than heroin and they'll never want to buy it off the street again. Though that might lead ppl. to become junkies so they can get the really cool prescription shit!

It's more addictive in the sense that the withdrawals are worse and it's harder to get off of. Heroin is definitely more enjoyable though.

 

[dorothyperkins]

Oh so its completely pointless then! At least its clean i suppose...

 

[SKL]

So's pharmaceutical grade diamorphine, which is a far better alternative for maintenance in addicts IMHO.

 

[johanneschimpo]

suboxone is the best choice for maintainence and/or detox.
ask anybody who takes it.

 

[Ham-milton]

It's more addictive in the sense that the withdrawals are worse and it's harder to get off of. Heroin is definitely more enjoyable though.

Like so much of society,- and you should know better- you're confusing addiction and dependence. Methadone produces a stronger dependence. It produces barely any addiction at all.

For those for whom methadone does not work, pharmaceutical diamorphine is a fine way to keep addicts off the street.

It does not, however, help addicts stop chasing a high, allow them to lead a normal life (how normal can you get when you're still shooting up 4 or 5 times a day and getting high?).

Methadone does not substitute one addiction for another- it substitutes one dependence for another. For heroin addicts, very few will ever come to crave the methadone in the way that they craved heroin.

Suboxone is a great way for addicts to regain normal lives, but many- especially those with stronger, larger habits- will not be able to end the cravings with it. Methadone is much better at that part.

I also think that OST needs to be thought of as a for-life sort of thing. Since the brain will have developed a tolerance to opioids and, subsequently endorphins, OST is a good way to fill the gap- but only to the point where you're not getting high.


-----

And to ob, re: whether or not this drug is acceptable for medical use is beside the point. Your OP was about medications that have legitimate medical uses- not if they met a standard for human use. Many substances up there don't meet the standard for human use (MPTP, Bufoteine, some ultra-potent fentanyl analogues, probably some psychedelics, methcathinone, probably), and that's indeed why they're there.

They have a legitimate medical use, though. A drug isn't on the schedule because it's not safe for human use. There millions of existing or potential substances that can never be safely used in humans. There are probably hundreds of substances that have recreational potential and are too unsafe for humans.

We have the FDA for that purpose- to keep substances that aren't safe off the market. That's not a judgement the DEA makes.

 

[SKL]

Like so much of society,- and you should know better- you're confusing addiction and dependence.

You're right, of course, and I apologize and know better-slipping into layman's parlance, etc.

Methadone produces a stronger dependence. It produces barely any addiction at all.

How are you defining "addiction" as you say this? Addiction for me has to do with maladaptive behaviors, so yes, waiting in line for your 'done at the clinic is much less maladaptive than booting dope, but if you get cut off from your methadone, you better believe many will be capable of doing some seriously maladaptive things to get it, or another opiate, back.

For those for whom methadone does not work, pharmaceutical diamorphine is a fine way to keep addicts off the street.

It does not, however, help addicts stop chasing a high, allow them to lead a normal life (how normal can you get when you're still shooting up 4 or 5 times a day and getting high?).

If an addict had access to measured, controlled amounts of pure pharm grade diamorphine, they would indeed have to dose several times a day ... hopefully not IV but some certainly couldn't get away from the needle.

I think a good part of it boils down to the ultimate goal. Do we want to wean people off dope? Or set up OST for life, as you suggest later on? Obviously if it's (b) then it doesn't really matter how much dependence we've created but matters a great deal how much addiction we've created; if it's (a) then both matter. Heroin is easier to get off of than methadone, and that's a fact. If we're trying to wean people down, heroin is a better option, and yes, this requires substantial willpower, but any sort of taper does. If we're talking OST for life, then methadone is superior only for it's staying power, and PERHAPS for it's less euphoric nature but that is a debatable point.

Methadone does not substitute one addiction for another- it substitutes one dependence for another. For heroin addicts, very few will ever come to crave the methadone in the way that they craved heroin.

I strongly disagree with you on the last part.

Suboxone is a great way for addicts to regain normal lives, but many- especially those with stronger, larger habits- will not be able to end the cravings with it. Methadone is much better at that part.

I sort of agree with you on that. I have mixed feelings and rather limited experience w/Suboxone. People tend to love it for a month or so and then get bored with it and then start craving opiates again.

I also think that OST needs to be thought of as a for-life sort of thing. Since the brain will have developed a tolerance to opioids and, subsequently endorphins, OST is a good way to fill the gap- but only to the point where you're not getting high.

Some people definitely can "wean" off, but those with larger habits often can't, I think it should be up to the individual & their doc, what their goals are.

 

[Psych0naut]

Thanks psych0naut, they still doing the heroin prescribing? They just started a trial here (UK), from an article in the independant:

ie. No good! No wonder it doesn't work.

Oh and do you think any psychiatrists use the 2C-s, would think there would be advantages over lsd, generally shorter duration, kinda tuneable effects, probably easier to work with.

Jup, still prescribing heroin, and it's still going perfect like expected. Crime rates have plumitted, and a bunch of addicts where able to get their lifes sorted out again. Unfortunenately with our right wing Christian goverment in place since a few years, I'm afraid our liberal drugs policy will end soon, it's already getting taken down in a fast pace, for example the ban of magic mushrooms, the zero tolerance policy to personal amounts of drug possesion at parties, and the new law which forbids coffeeshops within a certain proximity of schools, closing down half of all coffeeshops in Rotterdam, the second largest city in the nation.

I thought the UK was actually the first country to start prescribing diamorphine to heavilly addicted heroin users, even some time before it started in the Netherlands? Though because of shortage in medical heroin stocks of the NHS a while ago, due to a flooding of the factory producing it, it might have stopped for a long while, but I'm pretty certain they were prescribing it to addicts again in the last few years, or am I wrong?

I don't know if psychiatrists would use any 2C-x since little clinical trial on humans have been done with them, while LSD and MDMA have a long history of documented use on humans. Pharmaceutical grade LSD is very, very rare in the legal supply stocks, while MDMA is a bit easier to import by pharmacies, that's why I doubt much if any experimenting is still done with LSD(maybe with other serotonergic psychedelics though, but certainly still with MDMA)

 

[fasteddie]

They're "schedule 1" because they double as recreational drugs. Even if something has legitimate use, such as heroin being a very effective painkiller, if too many people start using it for "non-medical reasons," aka to get high, then it has "no medical use."

It's obviously a ridiculous system. I've stopped trying to figure it out. It's very complicated and involves politics, religion, racism... the list goes on. It's unjust, unconstitutional and the Drug War is used as a way to persecute the downtrodden and minorities in America.

People with late stage terminal cancer can suffer the pains of hell from it, and it's outrageous that their doctors cannot prescribe them heroin to assuage that agony. Addictive potential is hardly an issue.

Perhaps, as more lawmakers parents age and some are afflicted in this manner, the law will be changed.

 

[Ham-milton]

How are you defining "addiction" as you say this? Addiction for me has to do with maladaptive behaviors, so yes, waiting in line for your 'done at the clinic is much less maladaptive than booting dope, but if you get cut off from your methadone, you better believe many will be capable of doing some seriously maladaptive things to get it, or another opiate, back.

Addiction is defined as "continued use despite adverse consequences." Waiting in the clinic isn't a behavior induced by cravings for methadone, though, you're comparing oranges and apples, there. And if the methadone disapears they won't be going back to maladaptive ways so they can get high on the methadone, because they're craving methadone, they'll be doing so to avoid the withdrawals. That's not a sign of craving the methadone- just being really freaking scared of withdrawal. And do you really think their first choice is going to be methadone? If it is, it's only because they're trying to stay 'clean and sober.'

If an addict had access to measured, controlled amounts of pure pharm grade diamorphine, they would indeed have to dose several times a day ... hopefully not IV but some certainly couldn't get away from the needle.

It's my understanding that where diamorphine is made available to addicts, 100% will be using needles.

I think a good part of it boils down to the ultimate goal. Do we want to wean people off dope? Or set up OST for life, as you suggest later on? Obviously if it's (b) then it doesn't really matter how much dependence we've created but matters a great deal how much addiction we've created; if it's (a) then both matter. Heroin is easier to get off of than methadone, and that's a fact. If we're trying to wean people down, heroin is a better option, and yes, this requires substantial willpower, but any sort of taper does. If we're talking OST for life, then methadone is superior only for it's staying power, and PERHAPS for it's less euphoric nature but that is a debatable point.

I would say that it's B. B is the only method that's shown much success. Methadone doesn't create new cravings. After using short-acting painkillers for more than a year, and being seriously addicted, I switched to methadone (55 or 75mg, I forget). After 2 years switched to Suboxone (There were a couple suboxone-stints in there). I never once craved methadone. Even with ambulatory dosing, and thus the ability to take as much, whenever I wanted to. I actually started forgetting to dose. I doubt many people in this situation would have that problem, but for those on methadone in an OST setting, all those I talked to said they never, ever craved methadone. They may have craved heroin, but never methadone.

They were never in a position to abuse methadone either, though. I was, and I *may* have, but every time I might have, I would certainly have been wishing it was something euphoric.

I sort of agree with you on that. I have mixed feelings and rather limited experience w/Suboxone. People tend to love it for a month or so and then get bored with it and then start craving opiates again.

I've been on suboxone since last August now, and I definitely agree about loving it for a month, then craving again. I found a way around that though. After relapsing a couple times at the beginning, I started tapering as hard as I could, until 1/8 of tablet would hold me for two days.

Then I started upping my dose (I eventually got 1 8mg tablet with a corner knocked off a day, skipping every 3rd day). With that schedule I was able to get a decent buzz every time I took it, and haven't craved any drug since.

It's odd, I'm still getting high but I'm not craving it. Not at all, I still forget to take it sometimes, even.

I strongly disagree with you on the last part.

Have you ever been on long term methadone, from a short-acting opiate habit? I have, and I've spent a lot of time talking to addicts at the clinic I went to earlier this year, and they all agreed with that statement. Only one guy disagreed (A really big scary white guy with black panther and hells angels tattos. I thought they were mutually exclusive)- and he'd switched to clinic methadone from back-surgery pain methadone. He never opiates before his back got injured. Had some hilarious 70s speed freak stories.

 

[Psych0naut]

It's my understanding that where diamorphine is made available to addicts, 100% will be using needles.

Heroin supplied to addicts in the Netherlands and Brittain, and probaply Switzerland as well is predominantly if not all heroin no. 3 which is usually smoked, even by addicts. The number of Heroin addicts in the Netherlands who inject is pretty low, even though they have plenty of acces to free shooting gear like sterile syringes and ascorbinic acid, but they still preffer to smoke it.

 

[veRGe]

Some Schedule I drugs have legit medical properties. :x

 

[Ham-milton]

Did you even bother reading this thread?

 

[SKL]

Addiction is defined as "continued use despite adverse consequences."

Actually there's no real medical definition of addiction, but let's say we're talking about DSM-IV-TR criteria for "dependence", which is more or less what laypeople mean when they say "addiction".

A maladaptive pattern of substance use leading to clinically significant impairment or distress ... recurrent substance abuse resulting in a failure to fulfill major role obligations[;] … in situations where it is physically hazardous[;] …. [causing] legal problems[;] … continued substance use despite having problems caused or exacerbated by the effects of the substance ... tolerance ... withdrawal ... taking larger amounts or over a longer period than was intended”, “persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to … control substance use ... spending a great deal of time … to obtain … use … or recover from [the effects of the substance, neglect or abandonment of] important social, occupational, or recreational activities [and the continuation of the substance abuse despite experiencing] problem … caused or exacerbated by the substance

So we're both right

Waiting in the clinic isn't a behavior induced by cravings for methadone

though, you're comparing oranges and apples, there. And if the methadone disapears they won't be going back to maladaptive ways so they can get high on the methadone, because they're craving methadone, they'll be doing so to avoid the withdrawals. [/QUOTE]

Cravings are not withdrawals but this is still maladaptive behavior engendered by a lack of methadone.

That's not a sign of craving the methadone- just being really freaking scared of withdrawal. And do you really think their first choice is going to be methadone? If it is, it's only because they're trying to stay 'clean and sober

Methadone is not a magic bullet. It's an opioid with some peculiar properties and a long duration. My point is not that methadone is ineffective as OST, it is fairly so, but rather that a short-acting opioid is just as effective and leaves people with more options with regards to quitting. Suboxone is great for some and not so great for others. For people who don't want 'done or bupe, pharm grade heroin provides for great OST in that it encourages better lifestyles, decreases maladaptive behaviors. People can function just fine on it and since the black market is gone, dirty needles are gone, uncertain purity is gone, most of the harm associated with it is gone as well.

It's my understanding that where diamorphine is made available to addicts, 100% will be using needles.

As many will be using needles as want to.

I would say that it's B. B is the only method that's shown much success.

Sort of true. Certainly you're not saying it's impossible to become abstinent after long-term use of opioids? Many people do. And tapering is helpful in doing so. As I said before it all depends on what your goal is.

Methadone doesn't create new cravings.

Perhaps not but it can up your tolerance like a bastard.

After using short-acting painkillers for more than a year, and being seriously addicted, I switched to methadone (55 or 75mg, I forget). After 2 years switched to Suboxone (There were a couple suboxone-stints in there). I never once craved methadone. Even with ambulatory dosing, and thus the ability to take as much, whenever I wanted to. I actually started forgetting to dose. I doubt many people in this situation would have that problem, but for those on methadone in an OST setting, all those I talked to said they never, ever craved methadone. They may have craved heroin, but never methadone.

You craved opiates, though. Methadone is an opiate. If you're cut off from methadone, you're going to seek after a more recreational opiate to be sure. Methadone might get rid of those cravings while you are on it but it is doing nothing special to take them away, they are still there. Same with dope, really.

They were never in a position to abuse methadone either, though. I was, and I *may* have, but every time I might have, I would certainly have been wishing it was something euphoric.

I used to have access to virtually unlimited amounts of methadone, almost for free, while I was abusing a lot of opioids. I didn't much care for it, unless there was nothing else available, and in that case I was just using it to hold myself until the next time I could cop some dope, oxy, or morphine. In other words I was in the same position as someone on MMT except I did not have the desire to stay away from the more euphoric opiates. As I said it's all about your goals. If your goal is simply to function in straight society and not to decrease your dose of opiates, then any opiate will do.

I've been on suboxone since last August now, and I definitely agree about loving it for a month, then craving again. I found a way around that though. After relapsing a couple times at the beginning, I started tapering as hard as I could, until 1/8 of tablet would hold me for two days.

Then I started upping my dose (I eventually got 1 8mg tablet with a corner knocked off a day, skipping every 3rd day). With that schedule I was able to get a decent buzz every time I took it, and haven't craved any drug since.

It's odd, I'm still getting high but I'm not craving it. Not at all, I still forget to take it sometimes, even.

So you're saying you more or less successfully tapered?

Have you ever been on long term methadone, from a short-acting opiate habit?

No, but see above. I actually quit opiates cold turkey, although I haven't been totally successful in that, still chip once in a while.

I have, and I've spent a lot of time talking to addicts at the clinic I went to earlier this year, and they all agreed with that statement. Only one guy disagreed (A really big scary white guy with black panther and hells angels tattos. I thought they were mutually exclusive)- and he'd switched to clinic methadone from back-surgery pain methadone. He never opiates before his back got injured. Had some hilarious 70s speed freak stories.

 

[Xorkoth]

They're "schedule 1" because they double as recreational drugs. Even if something has legitimate use, such as heroin being a very effective painkiller, if too many people start using it for "non-medical reasons," aka to get high, then it has "no medical use."

It's obviously a ridiculous system. I've stopped trying to figure it out. It's very complicated and involves politics, religion, racism... the list goes on. It's unjust, unconstitutional and the Drug War is used as a way to persecute the downtrodden and minorities in America.

Then why is methamphetamine schedule 2?

Of course you're right. They define it as substances with no medical use. However. obviously it's just because of prohibition. For example, it would be difficult to argue that marijuana can have no medical use. Yet, it's defined as such.

 

[otb01]

This is quickly turning into an argument over heroin and other opioids and really not much else. Lets get back on topic?

 

[Ham-milton]

well, not really an argument, but the above has already occurred.

 

[SKL]

well, not really an argument, but the above has already occurred.

I thought it was a nice, civil discussion Maybe one that should have a thread of it's own.

But Ob: back to the topic at hand there is really quite little legitimate use for methamphetamine (Desoxyn) that isn't coverable w/dexedrine.

 

[dorothyperkins]

Anyone read under 2,5-DMA in pihkal, he says they make loads of the stuff, which by definition has no medical use. I checked, its true! More than ritalin for a couple of years!
http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/quotas/quota_history.htm

In 1998 they could have made 6,666 million 3 mg doses of DOB, assuming an approx 65% yield!

 

[SKL]

^ That is fucking weird.

There is a mystery, at least to me, concerning the commercial production of 2,5-DMA. At regular intervals, there is a public announcement of the production quotas that are requested or allowed by the Drug Enforcement Administration, for drugs that have been placed in Schedules I or II. In the Schedule I category there are usually listed amounts such as a gram of this, and a few grams of that. These are probably for analytical purposes, since there are no medical uses, by definition, for drugs in this Schedule. But there is a staggering quantity of 2,5-DMA requested, regularly. Quantities in the many tens of millions of grams, quantities that vie with medical mainstays such as codeine and morphine. I have heard that this material is used in the photographic industry, but I have no facts. Somewhere I am sure that there is someone who has to keep a lot of very careful books!

 

[Ham-milton]

Wow, that is incredibly odd. I've looked at that page hundreds of times and it never occurred to me. If it is being used for photographic supplies, it shouldn't be too hard to figure out what for.