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Legitimacy of believing

Tude said:
I think religion was invented by ancient governments in order to control people.
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religion wasnt "invented" by ancient governments, its came out of shamanistic tradition
now that human had cool toys like weapons and fire they could find some free time to do art and create culture but there was this weird thing in the mind happening now that we had evolve some basic language, some kind of voice in our head...thinking...!?

and if you did this that way or if you would eat those plants you could find this whole other world within yourself,
i mean thats how we figure out how to use fire and make weapon in the first place so we were obviously pretty found of that weird feeling inside our head
but then what if some people came back talking about the light, like there is a light within ourself, some kind of warm and embracing presence ??? and many other crazy stuff...
what if the people who got there would have tried to share that with others, try to teach them how to get there, what if thats how religion came to be
cuz all over the world there seems to be trace of shamanism that predates all those religions

remember that humans use to be like monkey before we evolve language
(and before that we were actually apes...)
shamanism was about techniques than can bring you to this "dream" world
a world that isnt normal reality, so those technique where about finding ways to trigger the human brain to disconnect out of normal reality
back in the days when religion were starting those priest figure obviously had huge authority over its populace cuz those people could connect with something divine that now defined what human where and how they strangely differed from the rest of the living things around them, we now could build pyramid!!

it aint because religion is now easily looked down upon now a days cuz of all the bullshit its being doing that you should disregard history and how religion was the high art the high science the pinnacle of human achievement back in the days
and how it made human a very special bread
 
L2R said:
^in a nutshell. ninjean pls post more of your ramblings in P&S pls.
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i guess thats what im doing ; )

btw im happy to see you and qwe and mdao and yougene and some others that im familiar with
havent played in here in a long time : )
 
can someone please provide me with a piece of evidence for the existence of a god? please, i am very open to be persuaded about god's existence but i just need something, anything at all.
 
Hopefully this algorithm is acceptable by today's standards of logic and rationality. Ow, yeah... sorry for the "infinite" loop in the algorithm. Sometimes, you need to have a "leap of faith" to get out of it.

Algorithm
1. Clear your mind. Open your eyes. Concentrate yourself. Start looking at your own body or nature.
2. Continue this activity untill you are overwhelmed with a deep feeling of awe, gratitude and wonder of the mystery that "there exists something at all and not nothing."
3. If {step 2 = succesful} then {recognize that this experience is a deeply religious one} else; go back to Step 1;

*** If {stuck in an infinite loop} then {try to accept that religion has little to do with objective proofs for God's existence}; else; go to {communal gatherings and see that people through symbolic practices express one of humanity's deepest experiences and are embedding their experiences symbolically in a cosmic whole.}; ***
 
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Religion is a black eye on the evolution of mankind. As a result, there have been genocides and countless victimless crimes against those with a different "faith" or background. If I am to speak objectively, I could discern the fact that religion could be used as a way to unite people, and bring groups together. Unfortunately, the atrocities that have come from the product of religion far outweigh the argument of 'bringing people together.' I think if you were to gauge the level of sanity in our society, religion is the easiest place to look. We are not exactly a level headed bunch are we?

Cheers
 
Credit must go to atheism however, who are actually winning in the body count stats. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and their henchmen, in a period of 4 decades, killed over 100 million people. These men killed around 10,000 times more people than all religious atrocities put together since the beginning of time.
 
Portillo said:
Credit must go to atheism however, who are actually winning in the body count stats. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and their henchmen, in a period of 4 decades, killed over 100 million people. These men killed around 10,000 times more people than all religious atrocities put together since the beginning of time.
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What credit? Atheism simply states that you don't believe in anything. That really isn't a far cry from people who state that religion is a detriment to our society (my view, along with others). I don't like to slam the door completely on anything, because in the end, NOONE knows if there is a God, so therefore, I am not an atheist. Atheism is not a religion, it is simply against the idea of a higher power or a God. Which in turn makes them anti religion? No credit should be given to "them". When people ask someone, "what are you?" And they respond, "I'm an atheist." That truly baffles me. A religion is a belief in a culture of values/God. Thus, Atheism is not part of the subculture of religions. It's pretty silly, quite frankly. If you affiliate yourself with atheism, you are simply getting muddled with the rest of the religious groups.
 
^^ what you just said is incorrect. if you read hitlers Mein Kampf, you will find that hitler was actually a devout catholic. as for stalin and mao, they were not really atheist but just wanted to remove religion to remove all forms of power that wasnt theirs.

anyway, even if they were atheist what does that even matter? does that mean all atheist are evil? hitler has a moustache, does that mean everyone with a moustache is evi?

what you did was make an 'appeal to emotion' argument that atheist are murderers that has no logic or evidence behind it.
 
Credit must go to atheism however, who are actually winning in the body count stats. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and their henchmen, in a period of 4 decades, killed over 100 million people. These men killed around 10,000 times more people than all religious atrocities put together since the beginning of time.
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This is a blatantly false accusation. As Lazyscience has said already Hitler was a devout Catholic. As for Mao and Stalin the way they ran things was pretty much like a religion. They don't call it a CULT of personality for no reason. Kim Jong Il for example is another person who got his country to worship him like some people worship god.

If you look at the rhetoric and the propaganda they clearly treat these so called leaders as god figures. In North Korea for example they frequently talk about how their "dear leader" created the stars and the sun and everything else.
 
Hopefully this algorithm is acceptable by today's standards of logic and rationality. Ow, yeah... sorry for the "infinite" loop in the algorithm. Sometimes, you need to have a "leap of faith" to get out of it.

Algorithm
1. Clear your mind. Open your eyes. Concentrate yourself. Start looking at your own body or nature.
2. Continue this activity untill you are overwhelmed with a deep feeling of awe, gratitude and wonder of the mystery that "there exists something at all and not nothing."
3. If {step 2 = succesful} then {recognize that this experience is a deeply religious one} else; go back to Step 1;
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how is this anything like evidence for the existence of god?

no belief in god is necessary in order to have a deep profound appreciation of the natural world.

in fact, if anything, the study of how the universe and the natural world around us works (i.e. science, which religion is constanly subverting), can give you a far greater appreciation of the world around us and make you even more overwhelmed by the beauty of nature and the universe. just because you feels something inside, is not evidence for god.

therfore it stands that the legitamicy of believing is still not very good.
 
how is this anything like evidence for the existence of god?

no belief in god is necessary in order to have a deep profound appreciation of the natural world.

in fact, if anything, the study of how the universe and the natural world around us works (i.e. science, which religion is constanly subverting), can give you a far greater appreciation of the world around us and make you even more overwhelmed by the beauty of nature and the universe. just because you feels something inside, is not evidence for god.

therfore it stands that the legitamicy of believing is still not very good.
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Well said mate. Well fucking said.
 
Tomer, you misunderstood the post. Portillo is not an atheist. He's demonstrating that more horrors have come from those without religions views than with them.

freddy47 said:
As for Mao and Stalin the way they ran things was pretty much like a religion. They don't call it a CULT of personality for no reason. Kim Jong Il for example is another person who got his country to worship him like some people worship god.

If you look at the rhetoric and the propaganda they clearly treat these so called leaders as god figures. In North Korea for example they frequently talk about how their "dear leader" created the stars and the sun and everything else.
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This nonsense has NOTHING to do with religion.
 
Lazyscience said:
how is this anything like evidence for the existence of god?

no belief in god is necessary in order to have a deep profound appreciation of the natural world.

in fact, if anything, the study of how the universe and the natural world around us works (i.e. science, which religion is constanly subverting), can give you a far greater appreciation of the world around us and make you even more overwhelmed by the beauty of nature and the universe. just because you feels something inside, is not evidence for god.

therfore it stands that the legitamicy of believing is still not very good.
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it stands this way as it is the way you chose to look at it. others look at it differently.

therefore, do not provoke answers you are not actually willing to consider. that is an greater illegitimate pursuit than either belief or disbelief.
 
L2R said:
Tomer, you misunderstood the post. Portillo is not an atheist. He's demonstrating that more horrors have come from those without religions views than with them.

Nevermind. Yes, his post is completely off base, that it threw me off. You are correct. I still stand by my other general comments about the culture of Atheism, though.
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This nonsense has NOTHING to do with religion.
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^How is it nonsense? What these people did was in essence create a religion around them. They just insisted that instead of worshiping a god the people should worship them. Its not that much different from what Allah or Yahweh demand in the Quran and Torah respectively.
 
Tomer said:
L2R said:
Tomer, you misunderstood the post. Portillo is not an atheist. He's demonstrating that more horrors have come from those without religions views than with them.

Nevermind. Yes, his post is completely off base, that it threw me off. You are correct. I still stand by my other general comments about the culture of Atheism, though.
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that's cool. personally, i can't tell the difference between a faith in something and a faith in nothing. as a mental process they seem indistinguishable to me. also as a social concept.
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freddy47 said:
^How is it nonsense? What these people did was in essence create a religion around them. They just insisted that instead of worshiping a god the people should worship them. Its not that much different from what Allah or Yahweh demand in the Quran and Torah respectively.
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it's nonsense simply because they did not do those things. they were nothing like ancient egyptians or the emperors in the latter roman empire.
 
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