Leftist Discussion Thread

[swilow]

No it isn't but BL sure gets more mental to read by the day.

You're not wrong. But too narrow a focus. The world gets more mental every day. Stay sane SHM!

It wasn't intended that way. Zephyr asked what race has to do with the left, or the left with race. Everyone got all consensus-like and was like "yea wtf ever is that?!", case closed. No.

You think what I say is just a view and you disrespect because you can't do anything else (or, you're tirrrrred... you're borrrred... and that is the barometer of truth for you?). It won't make it go away (in the world), and it won't suddenly make the entire world identify as one.


I understand you just made a mistake. I could have quoted what exactly I was referencing, but it was recent enough, and referenced at the top of the page, so I didn't think I had to (I'll try to do better, and understand how you made the mistake of thinking I was responding to you-- then again, you could have made an effort to ask what I meant, even to yourself).

Forgive me for not knowing you were replying to a post about 11 posts above mine that you didn't quote. Seems a sloppy way to conduct a discussion, it adds confusion to an already confusing topic.

I can and have done a lot more than disrespect your views, I have been rebutting them for months. I gave up because you won't concede, nor will I and I truly do not enjoy speaking to you. At the end of the day, you spread the same exact views across every single topic. Do you really expect any to consider arguing against such scattered and persistent and overriding views? You clearly have made your mind up (which is cool- me too), so what would be the utility in arguing against you?

I'm just fed up with you spamming your racial nonsense in every thread. This topic is meant to be a place to discuss leftist views and you guys on the right just cannot accept being excluded from a discussion so you come in here and and totally divert all conversations to reflect your own little bubble of obsession. At least you add some meat to the argument, that much I concede. But I'm done, and have been done, arguing against you for months in the same way that I have given up talking to the sky and expecting a response. I do not do pointless things over and over. I would rather you confined your views to one topic, or posted them on a forum that actually gave a shit. You are never going to change peoples minds, especially with your reputation for pseudoscientific racism, desires to enslave and willingness to commit genocide. There is no point in arguing with people who have those juevenile views.

 

[What 23]

rebutting? really? I don't remember many logical ones- just pleas to emotion. What do you want me to concede? ...i don't remember you taking down as many as I took down of yours (or others). I also attempt to provide reason, and example, that is not dismissive.

you are also taking a lot out of context (genocide and slavery- when I said I wanted to enslave people, it's in part out of frustration that I said it-- but I have viewed myself as a slave as well, and it's complicated... genocide, i certainly understand why it happens, and i can see that it would repeat in certain circumstance, and that we are not different people than the Nazis were- just different circumstances, with them in reflection, currently).

pseudoscience. no. there are scientific facts about differences of races, and about how humans identify, and feel secure in life. mixed race people have a higher incidence of certain mental health issues, and struggle with belonging (feeling, and actually belonging). this is just one issue in this mess.

but i agree. i keep not wanting to keep on this, but people keep addressing things I say, taking them out of context, hinging on things to make their attempt at a point (and blowing things out of proportion), so I feel I need to correct you (like i correct myself a thousand times), or again try to explain. i can argue for left-leaning ideas, because i identify a lot with ideas of social welfare, and health of our society-- I see that we are not islands, and require the group (and the group benefits if we are all healthy). but i have problems with how the current left, a lot of them see no boundaries, seemingly, or is in such a hurry to dismiss them (and get along/have peace, forsaking and even disrespecting things). it's irresponsible, but understandable. but yes, we seem to just be spinning in circles, or a tight spiral. I don't like having to repeat, but in ways I refine it to myself when I do. I also think that although I may have a valid position to begin with, there really is no use in, at least for good, this (a lot of it- what I say).

have a good weekend all.

 

[spacejunk]

This is an interesting article, i think some people may appreciate it -

The relationship between religion and racism: the evidence

 

[Burnt Offerings]

^ She says that she doesn't know if the refugee situation will lead to more racist violence in Europe...I'd bet on it happening, personally. Most Europeans will welcome them but they are tinder for the far-right, with all the narratives of invasion & societal corrosion. The far-right has been on the advance in Europe for decades now...isn't the National Front in France posed to put Marine Le Pen in the highest public office in France? Other far-right parties have been more prominent as well in recent decades. I believe that the fascists and xenophobes should be fought in every area of public life, from the streets to the ballot box, but I'm also of the belief that nationalism is one of the most historically powerful ideologies on earth. I think Marx dramatically underestimated nationalism, personally...at one time it was a revolutionary ideology, even a progressive one (it could be argued, specifically in the context of anti-colonial movements), now it remains an ideology that dominates class-based ideology worldwide, IMO. I definitely think that the far-left has its work cut out for it in the coming years...they still have a decent amount of power in certain European countries, mostly around the Mediterranean, but on the whole the far-left seems to have lost ground in the aftermath of the European sovereign debt crisis

 

[Burnt Offerings]

For me, what really defines the political left-wing is an interpretation of economics, society & history which is based on a class-based analysis. I think that's what has made me a lot more disillusioned with the left over the last few years, is I've finally realized how little regard people have for class compared to other identifiers like nationality, religion or even race. Nobody is proud to be a proletarian...why should they? Being a worker sucks, and the goal of the left has historically been the liquidation of all social classes. It is a miserable identifier related to the dismal science of economics. Whereas people get all sorts of warm, fuzzy feelings thinking about their nation and national culture.

The far-left in the past has often put forth the idea that nationalism will be swallowed up by historical progression, by the rendering down of everything in the class struggle between the working class and the bourgeoisie. To me it seems like the far-left have actually been more victimized by historical change than the far-right...the main bastion of strength of the left traditionally have been the trade & industrial unions, and their power in the United States and Europe has been waning for some time now.

There have been some impressive semi recent actions that have gone outside the parameters of the traditional union structure, though. The May 1st 2006 immigrant strike comes to mind, as do recent worker actions in the American fast food industry & prison strikes in the American correctional system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_United_States_immigration_reform_protests

 

[tathra]

how about the right wing nutters make their own thread to talk about segregation, bigotry, xenophobia, and christofascism, and stop trolling ours, so we can talk in peace about socialism, libertarianism, and overthrowing the wanna-be-nobles and capitalist scum.

 

[swilow]

They can't seem to help flogging the fucking shit out of basically a dead horses skeleton at this stage.

I'd like it if they could respect this thread and either contribute meaningfully or don't post. I sense neither will happen. There is only so many times we can have the same discussion and we're well past that.

 

[alasdairm]

...I've finally realized how little regard people have for class compared to other identifiers like nationality, religion or even race.

the fact that people don't consciously or otherwise, have regard for it doesn't mean it's not hugely important and a defining metric of america today.

so many issues come into sharp relief when viewed through the prism of class.

inequality (both wealth and income) is bad and getting worse. it's hard to sum up a complex issue like this in a way that doesn't just lose people's attention immediately but there is one really useful general metric: the gini index

The Gini index is a standard measure of inequality, ranging from 0 to 1. The index measures how far away the income distribution in a population is from a completely egalitarian distribution. An index of 0 corresponds to a completely equal distribution, in which everyone has the same income, and and index of 1 is a completely unequal distribution, in which one person gets all the income and everyone else gets nothing. The Gini index has steadily risen in the US since the late 1960s.

if trump does what he claimed he would do - improve the life of the u.s. middle class and regular working americans - one might expect the gini index to fall. anyone care to bet on the gini index value in 2021?

alasdair

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

I never said stop immigration. And you can't compare pan-European culture (and people who when they fuck their children don't look so out of place for generations-- identity does have effects, and who we identify with) with those from the Middle East and Africa, and the rates of immigration are vastly different as well. Many differences.

"Pan-European culture"? You don't even need to crack open a history book to see that Europeans have a hard time working together, just the news from Europe is enough to show that they have difficulty working together.

But what, pray tell, is the difference between Africans and Europeans? From what I can tell, they work hard and seem to try to get ahead in life. Are those not the same values that European immigrants had?

 

[swilow]

I wonder what what23 thinks about say, Mediterranean descent. Greek people don't really look like Norwegian people. Yet they are European. What about Spanish or Turkish? Caucasian?

There's no pan-European cultural heritage. There's just multiple ethnicities living in the same geographic area. Diversity is everywhere.

 

[Burnt Offerings]

the fact that people don't consciously or otherwise, have regard for it doesn't mean it's not hugely important and a defining metric of america today.

so many issues come into sharp relief when viewed through the prism of class.

inequality (both wealth and income) is bad and getting worse. it's hard to sum up a complex issue like this in a way that doesn't just lose people's attention immediately but there is one really useful general metric: the gini index

if trump does what he claimed he would do - improve the life of the u.s. middle class and regular working americans - one might expect the gini index to fall. anyone care to bet on the gini index value in 2021?

alasdair

Wouldn't argue that economics is somehow not relevant to understanding society, or that wealth disparity isn't an issue/getting worse...

What I'm instead arguing is on the decline is CLASS CONSCIOUSNESS. The bound between people based upon their shared identity as workers, seeking to better their own conditions. This is a critical concept in most doctrines of far-left thought

Although, as a disclaimer, most of my comments have to do with the United States, simply because it's the country I'm most familiar with. The USA has had a brutal & bloody class war waged over the course of its history, though. I thought for sure that there would be some kind of revolt in the aftermath of the economic recession, when official unemployment was in the double digits and images of people getting evicted from their homes were all over the news. The closest we got to anything meaningful in that regard was probably 100,000+ people occupying the Wisconsin state capitol in 2011 (IIRC).

 

[What 23]

I gave you a chance to stop addressing me. You keep asking me why I keep repeating things. I can explain again, or try to, but I don't want to anymore.

*I understand what you are saying- Europe has had trouble for a long time, but there has still been uniting threads through it, and royal families marrying, for centuries, where there has not been such cultural sharing with Africa, the same way, or the Middle East. Greece has contributed greatly to Britain, and Britain to Norway, and Norway to Britain, culturally, etc. Europeans cannot count many things distinctly African, or of African cultural origin, identified with Africans, that they now identify as part of their culture; 'Africa' and the Middle East recently-enough has not made a lasting impression/it has not been of great influence to the identity of Europe lately, and Europeans do not identify them as "in", as readily. As well, again, race does have something to do with things, because people look for belonging, and like to order things. It is hard not to see groups and it is hard for, even randomly, groups to not take on different statistical qualities- and unfortunately people will associate things with groups (not always the same, but it can add fuel), and groups can be self reinforcing, due to certain circumstances (I have said this: I don't have any real issue with individuals and eventually a small minority would NEED to integrate into the mainstream, but with these mass numbers, this becomes complicated). Europeans can blend easily enough with each other. A couple of generations and they're more or less the same. Yes there could still be conflict, various ways, for various reasons.

 

[consumer]

Tldr but i know it will just be "i am not a racist but heres a white supremacist view on things.." lol

 

[Soso78]

Wether he racist or not is debatable, the fact remains he raises some valid points.
Consumer you seem to live in a little bubble and beleive yhat no matter how many immigrants a country takes it won't have a negative effect, well that's bollox.
Ive seen first hand how bad things can get, when I was a kid there was a good mix of whites and Asians (Pakistanis) where I lived and now there is barely any whites at all. They don't want to mix and instead huge areas become muslim only.
I'm not saying it's all their fault because there's a lot of things to take into acount like housing issues etc but it's how it goes.

 

[consumer]

Australia is a very multicultural society and immigration has benefited us in many ways so i respectfully disagree with your assertion.

 

[Soso78]

Yep, Australia doesn't let just any old immigrants in. Must speak english and posses skills for work as far as I'm aware. Also no criminal record. I can't even go to oz on a holiday ffs.
UK lets any cunt in lol

 

[What 23]

I don't deny that I feel more comfortable with my own. And I think it's probably best for us to live in societies we created... If you want to interpret that as white supremacism, that's fine by me.

Again, I don't feel like repeating things. Carry on. Try to not include me in the direction, at all.

 

[paranoid android]

You can expect the "far" right to be raising their head eventually, especially if that white guilt castrated turdeau remains in power

As much as i don't like Trudeau and Liberals in general i wouldn't say he's a proponent of White guilt whatever the fuck that means. White guilt seems to be code for white people pissed off that they haven't got absolute rule anymore. Not that the Canadian government which was long run by and for Anglo-Saxons hasn't got alot of blood on their hands mind you. Not to mention fucking over provinces like mine and treating it as little more then a colony since we where dumb enough to join Canada back in 49.

The problem with Liberals is that they are Capitalists and thus far more wiling to put up with Right wing policies they don't like then deal with actual Socialists as Socialism means the destruction of Capitalism and all the lovely entitlements afforded to nice Upper class Liberals like themselves. Trudeau i don't expect much from given how much of a cunt his Dad was but he's still popular here and is alot better then that idiot Harper.

On the issue of the rise of the far Right/Neo-Fascism in Canada i can't see it happening to any real extent. Harper was hated and he fucked up Canada big time. So i can't see some Ultranationalist, Right wing Populist leader much less a Neo-Fascist movement becoming popular in a Nation as diverse of Canada is today. Even back in the 70's Neo-Fascist groups like the Heritage front had very low support never mind the not worth even mentioning the Neo-Fascist groups today. We have our race problems too (especially with the god awful way Aboriginals where and are still treated by society) but i honestly have not seen any great deal of racism in my life directed at friends/g/f's of mine who are middle eastern for example. Sadly it still happens but if anyone mouthed off to a friend of mine like that i would sure as fuck be tempted to teach them some manners.

I'd say what race has to do with it in the west, is that western civilization is pretty much "white", and often the leftists/liberals are the ones who feel the need to secure entry into their country by foreign people, and redistribute wealth to them/subsidize them, even if they may present a danger to society, or bring about unstable elements. And you do it simply based on a belief- that you think is infallible, and proven, and yet, you will never really lay it all out how it is good in the end, other than it obviously makes you feel good. I have much less problem with "left" policies as long as they stay more in-house, closer knit (more in common, speaking the "same language"), or perhaps like Sweden before the migration from the Middle East and Africa, where now their population will be replaced as the trend goes. That's what race has to do with it.

How is different ethic groups living in the same area a bad thing? We get along here in my province and in other provinces I've been too. Also do you want to know how many times i have been in a violent altercation or felt like i was in the least bit danger from a immigrant? If you guessed none you would be right. Personally i think diversity is a very good thing and wouldn't you get sick of looking at the same people everyday? If people like you had their way the Irish and Italians would have been shoved back on a boat as soon as they hit America by the sounds of it.

 

[paranoid android]

I might have read too much into paranoids coments but I took that as threatening me.

No it was certainly never meant to be threatening to you as a individual so please don't think that

I'm in the same camp. I voted for Bernie in the primary. When he was screwed out of the nomination by the DNC, I was devastated. I hope to God he runs in 2020 and gets that demagogue narcissist Trump out of the White House. If Lenin (my idol) were still alive and running for office, I'd vote for him above anyone else.

Sadly we haven't got as anybody far left as Bernie in Canada. The left in Canada certainly has alot to be desired. If i lived in the US i would definitely have voted for Bernie though plus i think he could have won against Trump unlike Hilary.

And we could use a few Lenin's in today's world instead of the Liberals and Champagne Socialists that make up much of the so called Left wing today

Not sure of the statistics but there's prob a lot of people on minimum wage that get by. It wouldn't be easy but don't give you the right to rob others.
I think in UK you can get working tax credits so if your on low income you get a payment to top it up.
Also get help with rent

So we can't redistribute the ridiculous wealth of the Bourgeois to help society but the working class can get fucked up the ass by the wealthy as much as they feel like it? I don't see how that is fair personally. And good luck getting by on minimum wage in most cities it's basically impossible. As for living off the dole there is no way you can afford to even feed yourself on the amount you get here never mind paying for anything else. The only thing it's good for is that low income people don't have to pay anything for the prescription drug program here which is pretty damn good actually.

 

[tathra]

I don't deny that I feel more comfortable with my own. And I think it's probably best for us to live in societies we created... If you want to interpret that as white supremacism, that's fine by me.

Feeling that your white culture is superior to others and that people should be segregated by skin color is unambiguously white supremacy, there's no "interpretation" about it. At least you're willing to own up to it, i can respect you for that. I find your beliefs abhorrent and very much disagree with them, but i respect your right to believe whatever you want.

Now, if you start trying to implement those beliefs and oppress others and violate others' human rights because of those beliefs, that's a different story.