Opioids Kratom - dose higher or not?

[dopamimetic]

I tried kratom multiple times now and while the initial feelings are pretty nice and opioid like warm, also it makes remaining physical withdrawal symptoms (mainly diarrhea) to go away.

But mentally it feels more like caffeine than a narcotic. I know that low doses of kratom are stimulating and it needs more for the opioid ones to become prominent but as I suffer from anxiety I am wary of stimulating things. Also a quick google for overdose symptoms lists primary stimulating ones like tachycardia, coma too but nothing about respiratory depression.

Is my tolerance to opioids just too high for it to work? Or should I try a higher dose. How bad can the stimulation from kratom become?

 

[dopamimetic]

It's from head shops unfortunately, and bought these that are described as sedating, narcotic. Have bali here, gold vein I see - strange, thought it'd be red vein.

Really you have kratom at gas stations? Nice, but sad that it's of garbage quality.

Do you get any nervousness, jitteryness from kratom?

 

[BK38]

Red Thai Muang Daeng has been my personal favorite with the closest to an opiate feel. For some reason it felt like a really mild Tramadol to me, but without the same serotonin lift. You're based in the EU right? There are great online vendors out of NL that are always consistent in quality and delivery. I'd give you the website I use, but that might violate the sourcing rules. Just search Kraatje and NL and you should find a good vendor.

 

[dopamimetic]

I took some more together with some kanna and maybe I actually notice some effect. Still tachycardia though.
Nice to hear that it isn't jittery, guess the previous batch I had from the last days was bunk.

You're absolutely right, head shops are ridiculously overpriced. These in NL cities tend to have working stuff but not the best quality nor the most potent stuff to avoid people doing shit on their products I guess.. they appear to be under pressure despite the 'tolerant' culture of NL from what I heard out of some talk with staff. Just use them because I don't have a trusty mailbox at the moment :/ used to be good at sourcing things online when I was more focused and calm obviously.. thanks for the hint @BK38!

 

[negrogesic]

Headshop stuff works usually.

Kratom is unreliable in its ability to produce true euphoria. It's only happened to me a dozen or so times and ive taken it hundreds of times.

If you have a tolerance to opioids however it is hard to get much out of it other than an alleviation of withdrawal symptoms.

 

[dopamimetic]

Apparently you can get full respiratory depression from kratom alone but I suspect this individual to having used more than just it, they write about history of polydrug use.

Kratom (Mitragynine) Ingestion Requiring Naloxone Reversal - PMC

Kratom (mitragynine) is a naturally occurring opioid agonist whose use has been escalating. Its suppliers advertise it as a safe alternative for opioids and a safe treatment for opioid-withdrawal symptoms. There has been controversy in the past two ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Kratom can be a heavy potentiator, I had some respiratory depression (passed out and woke up later with strongly numb limbs and paresthesia) from adding a bit of kratom to heroin which was too little or too weak alone and guess the kratom wouldn't have done much alone either but that was decent stuff ordered online so I am not really sure. Scared me off for longer and lost the remaining amount.

 

[negrogesic]

Apparently you can get full respiratory depression from kratom alone but I suspect this individual to having used more than just it, they write about history of polydrug use.

Kratom (Mitragynine) Ingestion Requiring Naloxone Reversal - PMC

Kratom (mitragynine) is a naturally occurring opioid agonist whose use has been escalating. Its suppliers advertise it as a safe alternative for opioids and a safe treatment for opioid-withdrawal symptoms. There has been controversy in the past two ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Kratom can be a heavy potentiator, I had some respiratory depression (passed out and woke up later with strongly numb limbs and paresthesia) from adding a bit of kratom to heroin which was too little or too weak alone and guess the kratom wouldn't have done much alone either but that was decent stuff ordered online so I am not really sure. Scared me off for longer and lost the remaining amount.

I find Kratom to reduce the effect of other opioids, which is not surprising giving that it is a partial agonist. It might even have the capacity to precipitate withdrawal.

Strange about the naloxone. Perhaps benzos were involved that did not come up on the tox screen (for instance, etizolam does not come up on American hospital tox screens).

Extracts heavy in 7-hydroxymitragynine might produce greater respiratory depression than the leaf itself, and those who metabolize mitragynine to 7-hydroxymitragynine more efficiently could be at greater risk. Mitragynine itself may compete with 7-hydroxymitragynine thus moderating the degree of respiratory depression produced. I once had an extract that contained 4.9% 7-hydroxymitragynine but only 12% mitragynine, which made it feel quite different than the plant itself.

 

[FuckinAcidMan]

Kratom is not going to give you the full opiod buzz. Accept it for what it is and avoid daily use. Keep doses low as much as possible.

 

[4meSM]

Well, how much do you usually take? If you have an opioid tolerance you might need to take more, as you already know, but not everyone seems to get positive effects from kratom.

I don't find kratom to act like a classic stimulant at low doses, it's just a slightly different high. To me kratom feels like a slightly stimulating opioid (somewhat like oxycodone) and I don't get any nervousness or jitteryness unless I dose too high (more than 5g makes me a bit uncomfortable and nauseous).

Been taking kratom for a few years and I've really found my sweet spot, a regular/highish dose for me is between 3-4g and a low dose would be between 1.5-2g. I usually take 3.2g doses during the day and finish the night with 2g. But from what I've seen that seems to be different for everyone, those doses might not work for you.
(By the way kratom is physically addictive so one needs to keep that in mind)

Seems like you would probably enjoy red vein kratom more than white vein. In my experience white vein is a bit more euphoric but I prefer high quality red or green veins cause they have a better body high. Red thai is my favorite strain as well but I always buy it from the same vendor.

I don't recommend mixing kratom with other opioids, I've done it a few times and it just doesn't feel as good. Also I've never experienced any amount of respiratory depression even when mixed with alcohol, benzos, ghb or other opioids. Though that's just my personal experience from using powdered kratom (it could be dangerous at high doses, don't really know for sure).

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

I've had batches of kratom that felt way more powerful than real opiates (in relation to blue m30's).

Some batches are useless duds and just hold you from withdrawal while others are built to get one high as a kite. It's just how it is. In my experience taking a huge dose to catch a strong buzz only results in dizziness and nausea/an uncomfortable anxious feeling. Kratom just falls short as a hard narcotic in that regard. But if you're lucky it can be just as good. The batch has to be good from the get go.

I must warn you however that perpetual kratom use really makes your tolerance to opiates in general sky high. For example, someone who takes kratom daily might need 40 milligrams of percocet/oxycodone to score a recreational high (even if he or she has never taken an opioid before EVER), while someone who does not take kratom at all on their first opioid experience might require as low as 5 milligrams to score a nice high. So kratom does push your opiate tolerance sky high when you're eating it on the regular. This caused a lot of issues for me.

I don't believe that extracts cause respiratory depression. I could be wrong.. it's just I've taken a lot of kratom on booze or benzos in the past and never had any issues whatsoever with potentiation regarding respiratory issues. I wouldn't dare take pharmaceutical opioids with booze or benzos though. That's asking for trouble. The topic hasn't been explored enough. Most people say that kratom induces no respiratory depression factors whatsoever, while others would state otherwise.

For kratom to gain the most beneficial effects I think one has to have a low opioid tolerance in general. You'll feel the effects more, and if you're quitting opioids via kratom use eventually your tolerance will lower enough to feel the kratom far better. I've gone through the cycle enough to know that eventually kratom feels great if you stop taking opioids.

 

[karrotx]

I'd suggest checking out the many vendors online. I have been taking kratom daily for a few years now and have grown accustomed to it's vast array of effects. If you're looking for sedation, pain relief, and opioid like qualities I'd suggest checking out a strain called bentuangie. It's fermented kratom that is quite potent that yields some great effects that I definitely recommend. With all the strains once you reach a certain amount they will become sedating. For instance 4-5gram range will start to be sedating and not stimulating depending on one's tolerance. Even with low quality kratom one can expect that this will be the case. Over the years I have noticed low quality kratom can tend to give me that opiate irritability, so it's important to test different doses and see where your sweet spot is.

 

[tarman]

Try the slow hippo kratom varieties. I always loved the sleepy yellow and all the reds in the slow category.

 

[Jabberwocky]

after 6 years of trying various brands, vendors, strains, batches... etc kratom has always been very consistent for me.

I once did have this strain "crimson thai" which was insanely good and stood out among all other strains I tried over the years. It was so good I suspect it had some O-DSMT or something in it. It sold out very quickly, the vendor never restocked it and never responded to my questions about it.

I do very much enjoy UEI extract, but there are a lot of fakes out there. Also expensive. 1g of UEI is very strong and euphoric.

With no opioid tolerance at all 10-12g of kratom can bring on quite a strong opioid high, I'd say equivalent to maybe 10-20mg of oxy, but obviously tolerance skyrockets after just a day or two

My sweet spot is 7-8g once per day. 10g+gives me too many side effects like nausea, tremors which ruin the high

 

[karrotx]

after 6 years of trying various brands, vendors, strains, batches... etc kratom has always been very consistent for me.

I once did have this strain "crimson thai" which was insanely good and stood out among all other strains I tried over the years. It was so good I suspect it had some O-DSMT or something in it. It sold out very quickly, the vendor never restocked it and never responded to my questions about it.

I do very much enjoy UEI extract, but there are a lot of fakes out there. Also expensive. 1g of UEI is very strong and euphoric.

With no opioid tolerance at all 10-12g of kratom can bring on quite a strong opioid high, I'd say equivalent to maybe 10-20mg of oxy, but obviously tolerance skyrockets after just a day or two

My sweet spot is 7-8g once per day. 10g+gives me too many side effects like nausea, tremors which ruin the high

From what I have heard from many people is that extracts or tinctures can vastly impact ones tollerancre, in a negative way, to opioid like substances.i would personally streer clear of any extracts and Go for plain old powder. That's to stay it's MUCH MJCH More cost effective to order say 250g at a time and reform a battery of test tests. First begin by taking 3.5g and see how that's impacts you.if it's too stimating trying these doses of 3;35grams, then raise the dosage anothrt gram and see if that's what you're looking for. Greens and whites wi be the most stimating of all the strains, so if you just wanna check out at homne watch tv I'd suggest getting some red being maengda or gold maengda, or even bentuangie. In my experience bentuangie had been the best for alleviating anxiety, alleviating pain and giving a great mental boost, allowing social situations to come become more fluid and less awkward.

 

[Jabberwocky]

From what I have heard from many people is that extracts or tinctures can vastly impact ones tollerancre, in a negative way, to opioid like substances.i would personally streer clear of any extracts and Go for plain old powder. That's to stay it's MUCH MJCH More cost effective to order say 250g at a time and reform a battery of test tests. First begin by taking 3.5g and see how that's impacts you.if it's too stimating trying these doses of 3;35grams, then raise the dosage anothrt gram and see if that's what you're looking for. Greens and whites wi be the most stimating of all the strains, so if you just wanna check out at homne watch tv I'd suggest getting some red being maengda or gold maengda, or even bentuangie. In my experience bentuangie had been the best for alleviating anxiety, alleviating pain and giving a great mental boost, allowing social situations to come become more fluid and less awkward.

Yeah, the extracts do fuck your tolerance, but even plain powder your tolerance to the euphoria and opioid effects after 3 days of use is just insane. Tolerance to the stimulant like effect of kratom never seems an issue though.

I've never been huge on all the intricacies and differences between kratom strains. I can never tell that much of a difference, and I've tried them all. The differences are subtle, but noticeable. I can tell the difference between bali and maeng da (most relaxing/most stimulating strains), but thats about it. Just like weed strains. I can tell the difference between a pure sativa and a pure indica, but hybrids are all the same.

Idk I've always followed the "weed is weed" mantra... maybe I'm just not a connoisseur.

@dopamimetic

also, to answer original OP question/title: Kratom is a "less is more" thing for me. I've almost always regretted taking higher doses than 10g. Although 10-15g with ZERO opioid tolerance can be quite enjoyable. I've had full on euphoria and waking dreams... it just kept me up all night long. The stimulation at higher doses is not that strong but it certainly will prevent you from sleeping. The stimulation from kratom is unique and unlike normal stimulants. It can be strong but at the same time you don't notice it that much (unless you're trying to sleep).

 

[karrotx]

Well if we're gknna sname sone sources, I may as well throw out my all time vendor.he always reasonablhio to shit you not....there hasbt been a single mobile

Sorry ghuiaaz im a bit a foot dSTARSeep in this vodke and these beer aremjxjjbg my ass

 

[Jabberwocky]

Well if we're gknna sname sone sources, I may as well throw out my all time vendor.he always reasonablhio to shit you not....there hasbt been a single mobile

Sorry ghuiaaz im a bit a foot dSTARSeep in this vodke and these beer aremjxjjbg my ass

You good bro? Getting enough oxygen to your brain? :/

 

[negrogesic]

I don't believe that extracts cause respiratory depression. I could be wrong..

Yeah i agree. My point was that IF kratom were to cause respiratory depression it would be from extracts that contain unusually high levels of 7-hydroxymitragynine.

From what i recall the write-ups of patients who had experienced respiratory depression in the course of clinical practice were all female which might be factor.

Even buprenorphine, which is only a bit more potent that 7-hydroxymitragynine by weight, has relatively rare occurrences of buprenorphine-only induced serious respiratory (ie., in the absence of benzos). My point was that in the rare instances of kratom-only induced respiratory depression (which i think may actually be nonexistent -- the literature suggesting kratom-only induced respiratory depression is highly speculative) the causative agent would be 7-hydroxymitragynine, if any.

 

[dopamimetic]

So now I've read reports on erowid where some are using way above 10g but of course the material out there is heavily varying in potency. Overdose symptoms seem to be intense tachycardia (ouch), equally intense nausea and vomiting but you should also be able to get robust sedation from it, some describe overdoses as being speedy but at the same time couch-locked. Sounds good and bad at the same time.

I am now on a total of maybe 7g gold vein, it begins to become comfortable but I also developed a moderate headache. No nausea to speak of, some hints of it but I don't really notice it and I'm not really susceptible to opioid related nausea in general. Guess this is the maximum I can get out of this certain strain. I did a lot of kanna* in the same time, so maybe the headache comes from it but a friend confirmed me that kratom can give you headaches.

* they say snuff 15-25mg. Felt nothing, so took another and another hit, now at least 125mg which seems to blend quite nicely, makes sort of a stronger tramadol. Oh, just noticed that my heart rate is actually less than before!

This is the first time that I've heard about gold vein, read that it is more fermented than the others and while one of the stronger kinds, that it also offers a mixed stimulatory / narcotic kind of high in opposite to red vein which is mostly narcotic. Is this true and should I go get red vein? Is there something special about maeng da or just made up by shops?

Btw kratom has an almost nice taste when mixed just with sugar and hot water. Alone it's awful. But I also like the smell of heroin and the taste of ketamine, so ymmv.

 

[Ballz_Trippington]

White Maeng Da is my absolute favorite strain...I ONLY enjoy kratom at what seems to be very high doses compared to most people I know and I have absolutely zero opiate tolorance (I dislike opioids except for kratom which I only do a fee times a year) .
Mu usual go to dose is around 10g in 000 gel caps...I also only ever take kratom with a large coffee. I know most people will think its psychosomatic but I notice a definite synergy when I take my kratom capsules with a strong coffee.
Higher dosages makes it feel like a totally different drug than lower doses in my experience but ymmv.