Opioids Kratom and belbuca - Will belbuca cause precipitated withdrawal

[MaxAMillion87]

Im in the same boat with kratom. About 50 grams a day for 5 years although i used to take less. It progressively got worse but 50 is about max i need to make it through a day. Got on it because someone offered it to me when i was in drug court. Stupid as fuck for not saying no. Been out of court system for years and never used any other hard drugs since i originally got in trouble. Just kratom. Now its time to stop. Actually its way past time. It does nothing except keep me barely normal. My motivation sucks. I hardly ever laugh anymore. Hair is thinning. I eat healthy and drink nothing but water which helps. Im going to attempt a taper but the self control is extremely hard for me. I want to get some meds to help. I have clonidine. Also will try to get gabapentin. Any other suggestions? Im thinking of just getting away for a couple weeks and not take any kratom with me but shit scares me. Any one ever used pod tea at first to get through worst part or is that stupid to do. Just seems something different would allow me break the cycle. Just dont want to make it worse. Pods arent easy to get like kratom. Thats why its so easy to keep using it. Less than 100 dollar a month habit.

 

[MyrandaK]

Yes and no. My knowledge of precipitated withdrawal indicates that most people need a disproportionately large dose of Opioids to actually, fully counteract the effects of an Opioid antagonist. I think you could pretty easily end up using up a large portion of your stash out of desperation. For this reason, in your situation, I would advise riding out the PW if it comes.

I have to mention this story. It keeps coming to my mind as I'm typing this. I was in a court-ordered 30-day rehab in Brockton, MA a few years back. My second day there, a kid arrived in a similar position to myself. He was a Methadone Maintenance patient, court-ordered to be there. He was in that mood where, despite not being sick, he just had that urge to use something and change his frame of mind. Unfortunately for this kid, he was a complete fucking retard and, as is in his nature, he picked up a random pill off the floor of the bathroom, crushed it and snorted it, not having any clue as to what it might be.

What was the pill? You guessed it guys, it was Naltrexone! This kid was a 100mg+ MMT patient and what happened to this poor kid was probably the most totally dramatic and terrifying instance of withdrawal I think I've ever seen in my life. I only found out what actually happened after the fact. This kid stripped off all of his clothes, completely naked, screaming in pain like an infant. He ended up on the floor writhing like a dying animal in a literal pool of sweat. I only know that an ambulance came and scooped him up. It was fucked up man.

Just be careful. I don't want to see anybody go through such an experience.

I’m so glad I didn’t follow through with my bright idea of using naloxone to speed up my withdrawal process.

 

[Xorkoth]

Im in the same boat with kratom. About 50 grams a day for 5 years although i used to take less. It progressively got worse but 50 is about max i need to make it through a day. Got on it because someone offered it to me when i was in drug court. Stupid as fuck for not saying no. Been out of court system for years and never used any other hard drugs since i originally got in trouble. Just kratom. Now its time to stop. Actually its way past time. It does nothing except keep me barely normal. My motivation sucks. I hardly ever laugh anymore. Hair is thinning. I eat healthy and drink nothing but water which helps. Im going to attempt a taper but the self control is extremely hard for me. I want to get some meds to help. I have clonidine. Also will try to get gabapentin. Any other suggestions? Im thinking of just getting away for a couple weeks and not take any kratom with me but shit scares me. Any one ever used pod tea at first to get through worst part or is that stupid to do. Just seems something different would allow me break the cycle. Just dont want to make it worse. Pods arent easy to get like kratom. Thats why its so easy to keep using it. Less than 100 dollar a month habit.

Don't use pods, whatever you do. I was on 50+ grams of kratom daily for 6 years, and had the "bright" idea of using poppy seed tea to get off kratom. Its insanely long duration (due probably to the fats forming a sort of time release from shaking... seed tea lasts far longer than pod tea) allowed me to take it once every other day. I took it 3 times, which kept the kratom withdrawals at bay for 6 days. Then I stopped and was past withdrawals, but I discovered that I liked morphine WAYYYY more than kratom, and it started a much worse period of opiate addiction than kratom ever was that lasted for 4 more years and led to near-total life destruction.

Gabapentin is amazing for withdrawals, really. Especially kratom, it nearly makes me feel 100% better. You can take it daily for a week and not experience any withdrawal unless you've been addicted to it before. Just stagger 300mg doses every 30 minutes, and take it with fatty food in your stomach, and stop taking more when you feel better.

If it doesn't do it for you for some reason, loperamide is the best bet for something to offer substantial relief. Loperamide in ~40mg doses of so will make you feel a whole lot better and it lasts about a day or so. it's an opioid but it mostly is just making your body feel better, it also helps with the depression/anxiety but barely crosses the blood brain barrier, so it won't set you back in terms of withdrawal, and it won't make you crave it when you stop using it. it will produce dependence of its own after a while, but taking it for a week will be fine.

But let me repeat, if you can't control yourself with kratom, DO NOT start taking a much nicer opioid (pod tea) to try to get off of kratom. You will massively regret it.

 

[xivixive]

I agree. This one is prety simple. Mitragynine exerts its effects primarily as an Opioid agonist so once you cross a certain threshold in terms of dependency/tolerance, you definitely run the risk of experiencing precipitated withdrawal by administering Buprenorphine.

i guess i am mistaken but i thought mitragynine was a partial agonist, as is bupe, so i am curious as to why this would be? how can an opioid agonist be available otc anyway?

does anyone have actual experience using bupe to get off kratom - as in dosages of kratom when inducted on bupe? how much bupe? how long into kratom wd? i guess i just dont understand the science. not enough fools to get badly hooked on kratom out there to have attempted this enough times for the correct info out there?

 

[Keif' Richards]

i guess i am mistaken but i thought mitragynine was a partial agonist, as is bupe, so i am curious as to why this would be? how can an opioid agonist be available otc anyway?

does anyone have actual experience using bupe to get off kratom - as in dosages of kratom when inducted on bupe? how much bupe? how long into kratom wd? i guess i just dont understand the science. not enough fools to get badly hooked on kratom out there to have attempted this enough times for the correct info out there?

That is definitely a good question my friend. The packaging of Buprenorphine with Naloxone in the form of Suboxone has definitely caused significant confusion to many trying to understand how Buprenorphine works. Studies have indeed shown that the Naloxone in Buprenorphine exerts some effect. Buprenorphine/Naloxone has been demonstrated to produce less "drug liking" response than Buprenorphine alone, for example. However, when we are talking about Precipitated Withdrawal, Buprenorphine is the primary agent involved, not the Naloxone. Buprenorphine, whether coupled with Naloxone or not can and does send people into precipitated withdrawal. "Street knowledge" is generally fraught with inconsistency and bullshit and the Buprenorphine/Naloxone argument is no exception. I've heard many folks say "it's safe" to use and even inject stand-alone Buprenorphine (Subutex) for someone dependent upon Opioids and this really is not the case.

As Naloxone is known to play a small role in how Suboxone is experienced, I'm sure Suboxone probably causes a slightly more severe syndrome, but I doubt an individual experiencing precipitated withdrawal would argue the point; they're miserable either way. Going in the other direction, being dependent upon a partial agonist is still going to lead to withdrawal of some kind. If it produces pleasurable effects, youre liable to experience pain in withdrawal.

 

[xivixive]

i guess im not going to play around with this idea... if the bupe does cause precipitated wd there's no way taking more kratom would fix it... for me at least. 12g and I'm good - as in not sick, i get no pleasurable effects from kratom anymore.... but if i take 15g it feels horrible. that kratom od feeling coupled with p-wd would be absolute hell. damn it.

 

[Dpl1013]

It's plenty to get hooked if you don't use them for the base minimum of time. People who try to get of bupe can taper down to 150ug or less, and still have withdrawals for weeks/months coming off. Bupe is a VERY strong drug.

I have the 75 Belbuca strip for chronic pain… I have not started them yet, but I’ll take between 15 and 20 g of K a day for for debilitating pain for shoulder surgeries last one at Mayo nothing worked Can I take the Belbuca to get off Kratom? 15-20 gpd for 5 years…. Thanks

 

[Dpl1013]

Anecdotally, a friend of mine as well as myself have noticed no PWD from taking bupe while addicted to kratom and not withdrawing. Though I wouldn't assume that will necessarily hold true for you. My theory is that, since kratom is a partial agonist of the opioid receptors, and not a full agonist, it's okay, because the reason bupe causes PWD is that it kicks out the other opioids from the receptor, but is only a partial agonist, so it doesn't cover the loss of full agonists. But if it kicks mitragynine/etc out, the bupe will satisfy your need because your need is for a partial agonist.

Again, don't just assume that this will be true for you, but I've used a single 8mg pill of bupe split into 3 decreasing doses to get off kratom a number of times, and I've taken it without feeling any withdrawal yet. My friend (a BL, maybe he'll pop into this thread) says he's taken bupe on kratom many, many times and never experienced PWD from it.

I have the 75 mg a day Belbuca the weakest ones work, chronic pain they don’t know what else to do… can I take this to get off of Kratom…. 15-20gpd for 5 years