Opioids Kratom and belbuca - Will belbuca cause precipitated withdrawal

[mrtea]

Hello everyone,

I learned just recently that Belbuca can cause precipitated withdrawal when used too soon after your last dose of several opiates. I was curious since Kratom isn’t an opiate but still affects the same opioid receptors if belbuca would cause a similar issue of PW? Been taking hydrocodone for some time now and unfortunately ran out recently. Luckily I had some Kratom and gabapentin to help with WD but was really curious to try these belbuca films I have a couple boxes of but didn’t want to risk it kicking in withdrawals if I didn’t need to.

Thanks!

 

[negrogesic]

Yes i would avoid taking buprenorphine while taking any opioid, including kratom.

 

[Xorkoth]

Anecdotally, a friend of mine as well as myself have noticed no PWD from taking bupe while addicted to kratom and not withdrawing. Though I wouldn't assume that will necessarily hold true for you. My theory is that, since kratom is a partial agonist of the opioid receptors, and not a full agonist, it's okay, because the reason bupe causes PWD is that it kicks out the other opioids from the receptor, but is only a partial agonist, so it doesn't cover the loss of full agonists. But if it kicks mitragynine/etc out, the bupe will satisfy your need because your need is for a partial agonist.

Again, don't just assume that this will be true for you, but I've used a single 8mg pill of bupe split into 3 decreasing doses to get off kratom a number of times, and I've taken it without feeling any withdrawal yet. My friend (a BL, maybe he'll pop into this thread) says he's taken bupe on kratom many, many times and never experienced PWD from it.

 

[negrogesic]

Anecdotally, a friend of mine as well as myself have noticed no PWD from taking bupe while addicted to kratom and not withdrawing. Though I wouldn't assume that will necessarily hold true for you. My theory is that, since kratom is a partial agonist of the opioid receptors, and not a full agonist, it's okay, because the reason bupe causes PWD is that it kicks out the other opioids from the receptor, but is only a partial agonist, so it doesn't cover the loss of full agonists. But if it kicks mitragynine/etc out, the bupe will satisfy your need because your need is for a partial agonist.

Again, don't just assume that this will be true for you, but I've used a single 8mg pill of bupe split into 3 decreasing doses to get off kratom a number of times, and I've taken it without feeling any withdrawal yet. My friend (a BL, maybe he'll pop into this thread) says he's taken bupe on kratom many, many times and never experienced PWD from it.

Yeah i would assume this could work for this precise reason but didn’t want to say it as I hadn't heard of anecdotal reports nor tried it myself. It may very well be fine.

On a side-note if the original poster wants to experiment for sciences sake it would be interesting to know your experience if you tried. If PWD did occur i cant imagine the withdrawal unless the dose is huge.

The flip side is that kratom doesnt really precipitate withdrawal from other opioids which might mean it actually is a pretty high efficacy agonist (as opposed to buprenorphine which is a low efficacy high affinity agonist thus a true partial agonist). Agonism-antagonism is sort of a spectrum.

 

[xivixive]

shit i was hoping belbuca would be effective to get off kratom because it is pure bupe, no naloxone... i can get ahold of as many 300mcg films as i would need and was recently myself just wondering how much would it take to cover my kratom habit? my kratom habit is terrible, like 80+g daily for 2+ years now, really want off, and would be risking a lot having bupe in my system... i was hoping 300mcg per hour for a day or two would last long enough in my system to defeat kratom wd, since bupes half life is so long vs. kratoms being so short...

kratom wd are terrible for me... comparable to day two cold turkey off a bundle of dope daily habit except its in full effect a mere 12 hours without dosing... i start getting sick every 4 hours... usually dose 8-10g of kratom as much as 8-10 times a day.... and it really, really sucks. I've been addicted to every opiate you can think of, aside from the newer rc ones, and kratom wd is worse then them all. 12 hours without a dose is like 24 hours without oxy if i was doing like 100mg daily. seriously. really bad. like day 2 of a 2lb daily pst habit ct wd... for me, yes, really... even more mental tormenting though because the fix is right at the gas station 2 mins away...

anyone have actual experience to tell about using belbuca to get off a large kratom habit? was about to try this but surely cannot be incapacitated for days by a wd that kratom wont clear up

 

[negrogesic]

shit i was hoping belbuca would be effective to get off kratom because it is pure bupe, no naloxone... i can get ahold of as many 300mcg films as i would need and was recently myself just wondering how much would it take to cover my kratom habit? my kratom habit is terrible, like 80+g daily for 2+ years now, really want off, and would be risking a lot having bupe in my system... i was hoping 300mcg per hour for a day or two would last long enough in my system to defeat kratom wd, since bupes half life is so long vs. kratoms being so short...

kratom wd are terrible for me... comparable to day two cold turkey off a bundle of dope daily habit except its in full effect a mere 12 hours without dosing... i start getting sick every 4 hours... usually dose 8-10g of kratom as much as 8-10 times a day.... and it really, really sucks. I've been addicted to every opiate you can think of, aside from the newer rc ones, and kratom wd is worse then them all. 12 hours without a dose is like 24 hours without oxy if i was doing like 100mg daily. seriously. really bad. like day 2 of a 2lb daily pst habit ct wd... for me, yes, really... even more mental tormenting though because the fix is right at the gas station 2 mins away...

anyone have actual experience to tell about using belbuca to get off a large kratom habit? was about to try this but surely cannot be incapacitated for days by a wd that kratom wont clear up

Yeah that is a heavy dose. 80g/day of kratom is about 1200mg/day of mitragynine, which is around 400mg/day of morphine equivalent.

Buprenorphine will definitely work for the withdrawal but you'll need to be in withdrawal before you start.

Yeah the awful thing about kratom is that the withdrawal starts so quickly after dosing once you are dependent. By 5 hours after dosing im already yawning and getting achey joints.

 

[Xorkoth]

shit i was hoping belbuca would be effective to get off kratom because it is pure bupe, no naloxone... i can get ahold of as many 300mcg films as i would need and was recently myself just wondering how much would it take to cover my kratom habit? my kratom habit is terrible, like 80+g daily for 2+ years now, really want off, and would be risking a lot having bupe in my system... i was hoping 300mcg per hour for a day or two would last long enough in my system to defeat kratom wd, since bupes half life is so long vs. kratoms being so short...

kratom wd are terrible for me... comparable to day two cold turkey off a bundle of dope daily habit except its in full effect a mere 12 hours without dosing... i start getting sick every 4 hours... usually dose 8-10g of kratom as much as 8-10 times a day.... and it really, really sucks. I've been addicted to every opiate you can think of, aside from the newer rc ones, and kratom wd is worse then them all. 12 hours without a dose is like 24 hours without oxy if i was doing like 100mg daily. seriously. really bad. like day 2 of a 2lb daily pst habit ct wd... for me, yes, really... even more mental tormenting though because the fix is right at the gas station 2 mins away...

anyone have actual experience to tell about using belbuca to get off a large kratom habit? was about to try this but surely cannot be incapacitated for days by a wd that kratom wont clear up

Yeah when I have ben on that much kratom the withdrawals are really bad, most people say kratom has mild withdrawals, and it does, if you take normal people amounts, but when you get up into 50+ grams per day, it's pretty hellish.

But I do believe you WILL be able to use it to get off. My experience has been that you can take bupe on top of kratom and be fine. What I would do is this: wait until you can't stand it anymore, then take 300ug. Wait an hour, take another if needed, and if you aren't feeling PWD. Keep going until you're good, unless you start to feel worse, then stop taking more bupe. My experiences and the experiences of my friend are that you don't get PWD from bupe when addicted to kratom. But still, go slowly and carefully.

I have used bupe to get off kratom a number of times. Just make sure you take as little bupe as possible, for the shortest amount of time possible. If you do this, you can escape without becoming addicted to bupe, but its easy to switch the addiction to bupe, and bupe withdrawal is worse and lasts forever. So be disciplined.

 

[mrtea]

Hmm very interesting responses. I was fortunate enough to switch from my probably low by many standards 30mg of hydrocodone a day for 10 years to a relatively small amount of kratom (I think about 15 grams or less) a day and several gabapentin for sleep and have very little WD symptoms. Some aches and yawns plus a little diarrhea but no leg cramps or restless leg which is by far the worst! I can handle WDs but I cant handle restless leg so I have had no issues sleeping!

Since I am on a relatively low dose of kratom and already feeling better on day 2.5 I’m thinking I should either just stick with the kratom until resupply. I am very curious to try the belbuca so what I may do is wait til resupply then try the belbuca so I can report my findings. If WD kicks in I can fix the problem with a hydrocodone.

My wife thinks it’s a good time to quit all together so I’m also battling that decision. I have managed my bad habit for a decade now without going above 30mg, mostly because supply is finite and we use what we need to last. Only reason we ran out was because of a supply issue that isn’t normal .

 

[drewbocop]

Hopping on bupe to get off kratom, even at that dose, seems like a mistake to me. Period.

 

[mrtea]

Hopping on bupe to get off kratom, even at that dose, seems like a mistake to me. Period.

For WD reasons or something else?

 

[Xorkoth]

I'm sure he's saying that because bupe has far, far worse withdrawals than kratom. It's been my experience that if O have 1 x 8mg pill of bupe, I can split it into 3 doses, taken every other day(since the half life is so long), in decreasing amounts, and bypass all but the trailing bits of withdrawal. If you break into a second [pill, then you're probably just going to switch addictions.

Another option to combat kratom withdrawal is high-dose loperamide. Covers up the vast majority of withdrawal, particularly the crazy body feelings/RLS. Safer in terms of addiction potential than bupe. 40mg or so gives relief all day, but takes 3+ hours to start working.

 

[mrtea]

I'm sure he's saying that because bupe has far, far worse withdrawals than kratom. It's been my experience that if O have 1 x 8mg pill of bupe, I can split it into 3 doses, taken every other day(since the half life is so long), in decreasing amounts, and bypass all but the trailing bits of withdrawal. If you break into a second [pill, then you're probably just going to switch addictions.

Another option to combat kratom withdrawal is high-dose loperamide. Covers up the vast majority of withdrawal, particularly the crazy body feelings/RLS. Safer in terms of addiction potential than bupe. 40mg or so gives relief all day, but takes 3+ hours to start working.

Ah gotcha. The bupe I have are fairly weak 150 mcg films. Not sure they are strong enough to really get hooked on or not but thought they could help with symptoms.

 

[xivixive]

yeah everyone always says that its not worth the switch, but i personally have never enjoyed bupe. i was once RXd 16mg suboxone films to get off a heavy PST habit and lasted 3 months on them before i gave up the script to go back to my 2lp daily morning dose of seed tea. i had particularly good seeds sourced 5 mins from my house and cheaper then a gallon of milk though. bupe has always had 0 recreational value to me, but kratom is like -3 recreational value at this point. i hate the shit but cannot control a taper beyond 6x 7g doses daily. I've gotten down to that a few times, with a few 6g doses thrown in, but have never been able to stabilize at a 6g dose. I'm not worry about getting hooked on bupe - i dont like it - i just really, really, really dont like kratom at this point. stupidest shit to ever get hooked on. at this point it does nothing but keep me well. when hooked on H i said "it does nothing but keep me well" but that statement has never been more true then with kratom. at least when on full agonists you still get that 5mins of "this is way the $100 hit is worth it" feeling. not so with kratom. too little kratom i am sick but a G too much and i am sick too - just a different kind of sick. i hate the shit so much now, but i have no other options due to the legal system... if i wasn't being ground in the teeth of that beast i would've never gotten hooked on kratom.

 

[xivixive]

80g/day of kratom is about 1200mg/day of mitragynine, which is around 400mg/day of morphine equivalent

oof, yeah i fucked up. geez

 

[Xorkoth]

Ah gotcha. The bupe I have are fairly weak 150 mcg films. Not sure they are strong enough to really get hooked on or not but thought they could help with symptoms.

It's plenty to get hooked if you don't use them for the base minimum of time. People who try to get of bupe can taper down to 150ug or less, and still have withdrawals for weeks/months coming off. Bupe is a VERY strong drug.

 

[ChronicFuture]

Yeah when I have ben on that much kratom the withdrawals are really bad, most people say kratom has mild withdrawals, and it does, if you take normal people amounts, but when you get up into 50+ grams per day, it's pretty hellish.

But I do believe you WILL be able to use it to get off. My experience has been that you can take bupe on top of kratom and be fine. What I would do is this: wait until you can't stand it anymore, then take 300ug. Wait an hour, take another if needed, and if you aren't feeling PWD. Keep going until you're good, unless you start to feel worse, then stop taking more bupe. My experiences and the experiences of my friend are that you don't get PWD from bupe when addicted to kratom. But still, go slowly and carefully.

I have used bupe to get off kratom a number of times. Just make sure you take as little bupe as possible, for the shortest amount of time possible. If you do this, you can escape without becoming addicted to bupe, but its easy to switch the addiction to bupe, and bupe withdrawal is worse and lasts forever. So be disciplined.

How long did the wd's last for you? I ask because I've been taking some lately to help detox from something else and I want to stop today.

 

[Xorkoth]

Kratom withdrawals? Depends on how many times you've been addicted to opiates. Kratom has short withdrawals but kindling is something where the more times you've been dependent on an addictive drug, the easier it is to get re-addicted to that drug, and the worse the withdrawals are. The first time I withdrew from kratom, it lasted 4 days. Nowadays it's 5-7, it depends on how severely I was addicted though. Also chances are when you stop taking something to mask withdrawal, you might feel like you're experiencing a little bit of withdrawal when you stop, just because your body will be re-adjusting to not having anything. But the acute withdrawals should be over by day 5 to 7, depending.

 

[Keif' Richards]

Yes i would avoid taking buprenorphine while taking any opioid, including kratom.

I agree. This one is prety simple. Mitragynine exerts its effects primarily as an Opioid agonist so once you cross a certain threshold in terms of dependency/tolerance, you definitely run the risk of experiencing precipitated withdrawal by administering Buprenorphine.

 

[mrtea]

I agree. This one is prety simple. Mitragynine exerts its effects primarily as an Opioid agonist so once you cross a certain threshold in terms of dependency/tolerance, you definitely run the risk of experiencing precipitated withdrawal by administering Buprenorphine.

Thanks guys. As a novice that's still learning, if I was to mess up and cause precipitated wds could I counteract that by going back to kratom?

 

[Keif' Richards]

Thanks guys. As a novice that's still learning, if I was to mess up and cause precipitated wds could I counteract that by going back to kratom?

Yes and no. My knowledge of precipitated withdrawal indicates that most people need a disproportionately large dose of Opioids to actually, fully counteract the effects of an Opioid antagonist. I think you could pretty easily end up using up a large portion of your stash out of desperation. For this reason, in your situation, I would advise riding out the PW if it comes.

I have to mention this story. It keeps coming to my mind as I'm typing this. I was in a court-ordered 30-day rehab in Brockton, MA a few years back. My second day there, a kid arrived in a similar position to myself. He was a Methadone Maintenance patient, court-ordered to be there. He was in that mood where, despite not being sick, he just had that urge to use something and change his frame of mind. Unfortunately for this kid, he was a complete fucking retard and, as is in his nature, he picked up a random pill off the floor of the bathroom, crushed it and snorted it, not having any clue as to what it might be.

What was the pill? You guessed it guys, it was Naltrexone! This kid was a 100mg+ MMT patient and what happened to this poor kid was probably the most totally dramatic and terrifying instance of withdrawal I think I've ever seen in my life. I only found out what actually happened after the fact. This kid stripped off all of his clothes, completely naked, screaming in pain like an infant. He ended up on the floor writhing like a dying animal in a literal pool of sweat. I only know that an ambulance came and scooped him up. It was fucked up man.

Just be careful. I don't want to see anybody go through such an experience.