Kratom alkaloids vs buprenorphine binding affinity

[percozakk]

Hello all.
I am currently tapering off of 16 mg daily of suboxone. Today I am making the leap from 12 mg daily down to 8 mg daily. I got hold of some kratom and am starting to use it to help me taper. Yesterday I took some, about 10 grams of some good Thai. I noticed okay effects though I know I didn't get 100% of them.
I have read at a few places that buprenorphine has a binding affinity 20-40 times greater than morphine. I read that mitraginine pseudoIndoxyl ( one of the main alkaloids found in mitraginine speciosa.) has a binding affinity 20 fold that of morphine.
I am specifically wondering about the binding affinity of mitraginine and 7-hydroxymitraginine.
My question for you guys is how does the binding affinity of mitraginine and 7-hydroxymitraginine compare to that of buprenorphine?
What are the binding effects on delta, mu and kappa receptors? Since I got some effects from the kratom I am trying to figure out the binding affinity of kratom since obviously it broke through on some level.
So thanks guys, any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[laCster]

at No, bup will beat out kratom the receptor. However, kratom has various alkaloids, some relates to yohimbe which acts as a a stimulantmbet my money kratom has alkaloids with has a sigma1 receptor agonist and an nmda agonist and an NRI too. So in theory, it won't be worthless to take kratom on bup, but definitely don't take kratom and then take bup that wouldn't be good, but kratom will add some stimulation but won't really bind extensively to mu and delta receptors because of bups amazingly strong bonding affinity at mu, and antagonism at kappa. You might get some delta receptors agonism from kratom

 

[Cane2theLeft]

You should be able to taper buprenorphine relatively painlessly down to 2-4mg, if experience has taught you otherwise it's likely due to the expectation it will be difficult and conditioning yourself what to feel when you 'expect' to withdraw.

The agonist effects of buprenorphine reach a ceiling at the 2-4mg level and above this, doses are used to ensure steady plasma levels and extend the duration of the blockade effect. You have also built up a substantial amount of buprenorphine in your system so you could probably skip a day (some even 2 or 3) without even feeling any withdrawal and again, if your experience has proven otherwise, it's likely due to your mindset and expectations because the physiological effects of buprenorphine are subustantially well-documented.

I strongly recommend reading around the suboxone talkzone blog as well as the mega threads in Other Drugs (all versions accessible through the directory linked at the top of the BDD and OD forums).

As has been mentioned, buprenorphine is going to out-compete the mu agonist effects of kratom at any dose unless you isolate mitragynine or 7-ohm and take truly massive doses which, if you had the chemistry equipment requisite for this as well as the knowledge, you wouldn't need to be asking. The effects you felt are likely from the noradrenergic effects of kratom potentiating the buprenorphine.

The role of kratom in coming off of bupe is really in supplementing after you fully stop taking the buprenorphine. The lower you choose to jump off, the better but some PAWS is likely inevitable if you have been on bupe for a long time, especially if that was preceded by a long history of full-agonist use. Kratom can help to a degree with the PAWS and especially aid in motivation and energy during this period but don't expect miracles.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

I don't think this is a very basic question, so I'm going to move it to Other Drugs where you might get more responses.

BDD -> OD

 

[~QuirKyNai~]

I notice that while o been on ..25mg(250mcg) daily.sometimes another dose at night..ive been experimenting w/taking kratom a few hours after my sub..i do noticedelta receptor activity.and maybe some mu-receptor..i noticethat some still uncomfortable feelings on bup alone were helped by the 'k'. My pupils seem to widen and a few hours after the 'k' first hits i have what feels to me like the afterglow of the tail end of a mushroom trip.or like from antidepressants.

 

[Screaming_Skull]

Huh, plan to use Kratom again when or if I get off of Subs...What I REALLY wanna try is that Psueoxly analouge of Mitryagiane. Would say wish it would show up on RC sites, but don't want to put any bad light on kratom, since from the expericens I've read about this stuff is it's like Roxi's but a little speedier and doesn't last as long.