Pander Bear
Bluelight Crew
Ok daddy. So you think you could try acting your age in return.
Israel shelled Palestinians after evacuating them, UN says
- Thread starter Ernestrome
- Start date
Ok daddy. So you think you could try acting your age in return.
rachamim
Bluelighter
BitPattern: I will try one last time to explain to you just why you are wrong. Rooughly 4 years ago Mods made a decison that any threads would have to have a hyperlinked article showing it to be an actual issue. Stupidd rule but there it is.
I was posting on the issue at hand, and needed to put URL to show that one exists. Now, again, if you bothtered to read the link you will see that ZERO of the link's content is contained in my post, save for the issue being mentioned. I would think that anyone could easily understand rthat.
You are again trying to derail adult dicsussion with a defelection of the pertinent info, and instead turning it once again into a criticism of Rachamim, etc. Is your belief system, your rationale so weak so without substance that you are now forced to even new lows? ARGUE YOUR CASE.
Forget about me, who I am, what I do. Worry about your argument because ti is dying quickly.
Jeebus: The question of "killing of children" lies entirely with "INTENT." Are seriously telling the thread that if your mum, wifre, and 2 children were being held by some kidnapping team...and that team had grabbed kids out of a playground and hid behind them...Knowing that if you fire at the team you just MAY hit one or more of those dchildren BUT at the same time free your own loved ones.
Do you then forgo any shot to free your loved ones because of a remote chance that one of those strangers' kids might be hurt or killed in the process?
There is no blanket policy or decison, black and white strategem that nakes irt alright. You have to weigh the situation and outweigh the negative aspects.
I was posting on the issue at hand, and needed to put URL to show that one exists. Now, again, if you bothtered to read the link you will see that ZERO of the link's content is contained in my post, save for the issue being mentioned. I would think that anyone could easily understand rthat.
You are again trying to derail adult dicsussion with a defelection of the pertinent info, and instead turning it once again into a criticism of Rachamim, etc. Is your belief system, your rationale so weak so without substance that you are now forced to even new lows? ARGUE YOUR CASE.
Forget about me, who I am, what I do. Worry about your argument because ti is dying quickly.
Jeebus: The question of "killing of children" lies entirely with "INTENT." Are seriously telling the thread that if your mum, wifre, and 2 children were being held by some kidnapping team...and that team had grabbed kids out of a playground and hid behind them...Knowing that if you fire at the team you just MAY hit one or more of those dchildren BUT at the same time free your own loved ones.
Do you then forgo any shot to free your loved ones because of a remote chance that one of those strangers' kids might be hurt or killed in the process?
There is no blanket policy or decison, black and white strategem that nakes irt alright. You have to weigh the situation and outweigh the negative aspects.
rachamim
Bluelighter
Rangrz: "Israel has nothing do with any sort of Chechnya-type dynamic. Unlike Russia, Israel allows press even at the worst of time (afety mermitting).
"Rangrz never saw an engagement that targetted a school.": Get a couple of things straight. Afghanistan has never had a Close Quarter and certainly no Close Quarter Urban Combat action.
Afghanistan through and through is Medeviel Rural and as such there is absolutely no readon to hit any school etc. Look at Gaza though, care to change you thoughts?
"It there was any Search and Detain in an urban environment, kick in the door and detain,": Right, because that took place so much, and in so many cities. Try it in Khan Younis. You would not make it 20 meters.
Also have to note how you totally ignored all the facts I posted about Canada and is military forces under the UN auspices. By the way, I may have noted aleady but you have a contingent in Gaza equal to half the number of your men that served the entire 8 years in Afghanistan...but again...not a word.
Pander: Difference between you and I, YOU are a Mod.
Oh, and the "Daddy" thing? Depends on your birthday, let me know. Also, what vclub did she work in. Thanks in advance. IF I am your "Daddy," we will catch up, I promise.
"Rangrz never saw an engagement that targetted a school.": Get a couple of things straight. Afghanistan has never had a Close Quarter and certainly no Close Quarter Urban Combat action.
Afghanistan through and through is Medeviel Rural and as such there is absolutely no readon to hit any school etc. Look at Gaza though, care to change you thoughts?
"It there was any Search and Detain in an urban environment, kick in the door and detain,": Right, because that took place so much, and in so many cities. Try it in Khan Younis. You would not make it 20 meters.
Also have to note how you totally ignored all the facts I posted about Canada and is military forces under the UN auspices. By the way, I may have noted aleady but you have a contingent in Gaza equal to half the number of your men that served the entire 8 years in Afghanistan...but again...not a word.
Pander: Difference between you and I, YOU are a Mod.
Oh, and the "Daddy" thing? Depends on your birthday, let me know. Also, what vclub did she work in. Thanks in advance. IF I am your "Daddy," we will catch up, I promise.
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Infinite Jest
Bluelight Crew
Post a source for this; because it doesn't sound like any aspect of international law that I'm familiar with.
[edit: original version of this post was unnecessary]
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Infinite Jest
Bluelight Crew
Um, you do. Well, they do denounce them - maybe it's not reported where you are.
For one thing, Hamas and Fatah were fighting each other. It's not like everyone in Palestine supports Hamas.
You'll find a huge amount of ambivalence towards Hamas among supporters of Palestine. I mean, they're an Islamic fundamentalist group.
But on the other hand, as Pander Bear alludes, they were keeping the Gaza strip functioning. They were providing social services and food and stuff. That's going to be worth a lot, in anyone's language. If they can promote the situation as 'the Isreali boycott means you don't get food or medicine, but thanks to us, you do', that's a powerful narrative (no matter how true it is).
belarki
Bluelight Crew
If there hadn't been 8 years of rockets fired from Gaza at civilian Israelis then maybe this wouldn't be happening. If the hamas militants weren't using civilian human shields then maybe the civilian casualties would be lower.
Personally I'm of the opinion that no loss of human life is justifiable. It is horrendous. The world isn't a peaceful place though. Israel's motives for this may or may not be politically motivated however they are in the best interest of protecting the Israeli people from terrorist attacks.
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rachamim
Bluelighter
Infinite:I do not understand what your "Edit" is referring to but as for you not "recalling any component of International Law like that," I had not realised you were up on the genre. In any event. Quite simple really. I can talk about it all day but as long as the action is not "willfull" or "malicious" and the entity (Israel) was operating with full "Casus Belli" (and we are without a doubt) then our actions are legal by both Hague AND Geneva. Geneva, 49,Convention IV, Section I, Article 147 covers it nicely. Refer to Hague 1907 for corroborating proof if you wish.
I do not want to get all deep into it because to be honest 99% here could not give a shi% one way or another but it comes down to 3 points:
I) Was the killing of those children "willfull"?
II) Could better weaponry have caused LESS Collatteral Damage?
III) Did actual Casus Belli indeed exist?
Answers: I)ABSOLUTELY NOT.
II) ABSOLUTELY NOT.
III)ABSOLUTELY YES.
On point II in fact it was a GPS related mortar witrh a 30 +/- variaibility range and indeed had the shell killed more civlians that the intended armament should have, there very well might have been grounds for a case but to the credit of the IDF the shell was Cold Zero and managed to kill even less than the inteded armament. So, if anything, it was exemplerary in execution.
Indeed, the ultimate blame, as I have been saying, can be laid at the feet of the entity that placed those civlians. including children, directly in harms way: HAMAS.
I do not want to get all deep into it because to be honest 99% here could not give a shi% one way or another but it comes down to 3 points:
I) Was the killing of those children "willfull"?
II) Could better weaponry have caused LESS Collatteral Damage?
III) Did actual Casus Belli indeed exist?
Answers: I)ABSOLUTELY NOT.
II) ABSOLUTELY NOT.
III)ABSOLUTELY YES.
On point II in fact it was a GPS related mortar witrh a 30 +/- variaibility range and indeed had the shell killed more civlians that the intended armament should have, there very well might have been grounds for a case but to the credit of the IDF the shell was Cold Zero and managed to kill even less than the inteded armament. So, if anything, it was exemplerary in execution.
Indeed, the ultimate blame, as I have been saying, can be laid at the feet of the entity that placed those civlians. including children, directly in harms way: HAMAS.
rachamim
Bluelighter
InfiniteJest: " 'Palestinians' DO denounce it when people break things like the HAMAS Cease Fire.": Not really. They say it under their breath while screaming how brutal Israel is. It is the same old game. As long as the rockets are not going through THEIR roofs they have little to say.
Were the common "PAlestinians" to actually speak up, unite as best they can, change could be effected. The state that was offered to them in 1919 could have had economic takeoff in the 1920s, just like Israel did. instead, almost 100 years later they continue to wallow in misery and sipair as their Arab brethren spit on them and use them for their own ends.
"HAMAS and Fatah were fighting one another.": Yep, quite true but not for any kind of oObjective other than sheer power and purse strings. The PA could shut up, or better yet assist in this effort and retake what was stolen from them, by HAMAS. Instead Mazen/Abbas is rubbing his hands together in sweaty anticipation, while muttering curses at Israel in the International Media, VERY productive but comepltely par for the course.
"HAMAS was keeping Gaza functioning.": HAMAS stole power in Gaza. They then stole all basic commodities AND cash donated by NGOS and foreign Govts. As we would offload petrol at Nachal Oz, the trailers would pull onto the access road and in broad daylight HAMAS jeeps would hijack the trucks. THAT only sopped when it brought Gaza to the brink of another rebellion.
"Running Gaza?" That is a sick joke unless you mean "running it into the ground."
"They were providing social services and food.": About 10 years ago. So what? Israel has been giving more food then HAMAS ever did, it did not mean it was something noble. You assume leadership that becomes your responsibioity. Had they really cared about their constitiuency they would have immediately moved to disarm militat groups including their own military wing (Qassam Brigade), as well as trying to meet as many of the basic requirements of International Law as was humanly possible. Instead they waged war incessantly and sadly now they choose to pay that price.
As for the Israeli Boycott, every day of the week ISRAELIS were delivering more than 2 X the UNRWA minimum daily requirement in addition to allowing NGOS to deliver as much as they chose to during their daily window. Even as we faced mortars, RPGs, snipers, Qassam and Grad rockets we made sure they had the basic neccessities. 74% of their electricity continued to come from us, all their legal petrol, LPG, and diesel comes from us, all their meds, from us.
Then, during the so called "C. Fire, more than half of ALL days saw ALL Check Points fully open and operational! Where was Gilad Schalit? The IDF soldier kidnapped by HAMAS when they dug a tunnel onto Israeli soil and was the man who was supposed to be retruned unharmed so that all Check Points could remain open all the time? HAMAS was lying from day one, and does nothing but lie.
Belarki: I agree with what I see in your post but the cartoon makes no sense. Only one side PURPOSEFULLY aims at non-combatants, and the brag at it to boot!
Were the common "PAlestinians" to actually speak up, unite as best they can, change could be effected. The state that was offered to them in 1919 could have had economic takeoff in the 1920s, just like Israel did. instead, almost 100 years later they continue to wallow in misery and sipair as their Arab brethren spit on them and use them for their own ends.
"HAMAS and Fatah were fighting one another.": Yep, quite true but not for any kind of oObjective other than sheer power and purse strings. The PA could shut up, or better yet assist in this effort and retake what was stolen from them, by HAMAS. Instead Mazen/Abbas is rubbing his hands together in sweaty anticipation, while muttering curses at Israel in the International Media, VERY productive but comepltely par for the course.
"HAMAS was keeping Gaza functioning.": HAMAS stole power in Gaza. They then stole all basic commodities AND cash donated by NGOS and foreign Govts. As we would offload petrol at Nachal Oz, the trailers would pull onto the access road and in broad daylight HAMAS jeeps would hijack the trucks. THAT only sopped when it brought Gaza to the brink of another rebellion.
"Running Gaza?" That is a sick joke unless you mean "running it into the ground."
"They were providing social services and food.": About 10 years ago. So what? Israel has been giving more food then HAMAS ever did, it did not mean it was something noble. You assume leadership that becomes your responsibioity. Had they really cared about their constitiuency they would have immediately moved to disarm militat groups including their own military wing (Qassam Brigade), as well as trying to meet as many of the basic requirements of International Law as was humanly possible. Instead they waged war incessantly and sadly now they choose to pay that price.
As for the Israeli Boycott, every day of the week ISRAELIS were delivering more than 2 X the UNRWA minimum daily requirement in addition to allowing NGOS to deliver as much as they chose to during their daily window. Even as we faced mortars, RPGs, snipers, Qassam and Grad rockets we made sure they had the basic neccessities. 74% of their electricity continued to come from us, all their legal petrol, LPG, and diesel comes from us, all their meds, from us.
Then, during the so called "C. Fire, more than half of ALL days saw ALL Check Points fully open and operational! Where was Gilad Schalit? The IDF soldier kidnapped by HAMAS when they dug a tunnel onto Israeli soil and was the man who was supposed to be retruned unharmed so that all Check Points could remain open all the time? HAMAS was lying from day one, and does nothing but lie.
Belarki: I agree with what I see in your post but the cartoon makes no sense. Only one side PURPOSEFULLY aims at non-combatants, and the brag at it to boot!
I agree. Using children and civilian shields is dirty, it's cheap, and it's dishonorable. But do you know why it's all those things? BECAUSE NOBODY IN THEIR RIGHT FUCKING MIND KILLS CHILDREN AND CIVILIANS.
belarki
Bluelight Crew
You realise that many of the suicide bombers used against Israel in the last ten years have either been children or recruited as children. You think someone in their "right fucking mind" would send their child to be a suicide bomber?
Do you honestly think, say hypothetically, an Israeli soldier wakes up one morning and muses "you know, I'm going to kill some innocent civilians and children today, won't that be fun?".
I'm more inclined to believe that they are fully aware of the horrendous nature of the loss of human life. From what I can gather, from limited and of course subjective sources, they are doing their best to minimise it. Given that they are working in one of the most densly populated areas on the planet and civilians are being used by hamas militants as human shields, I'd say they are doing a pretty good job at minimising casualities. Don't believe me, then look at the Afghanistan figures I listed above, the USA is killing between 2 and 6 civilians for every member of the Taliban. If Israel were doing that poorly the civilian death toll in Gaza would be in the thousands, not hundreds.
I'd like to believe that any soldier, regardless of race, nationality, beliefs, who killed another would be haunted for the rest of their life with the knowledge that the button they pressed or trigger they pulled ultimately ended a human life. I couldn't do it....
Infinite Jest
Bluelight Crew
Can we get a credible source for these 'human shields' claims?
Because it seems like some of you are begging the question; the argument seems to go 'Israelis wouldn't kill civilians, so if they are, the civilians must be at legitimate military targets, and therefore they must be being used as human shields'.
But we've seen Israeli soldiers killed by their own side; we've seen the UN compound shelled, both of which suggest at least the possibility that Israeli action is being mistargeted.
IT would also be nice to hear one of you say, just once: hey, we're sorry that those people died, rather than saying 'it was all someone else's fault'. [Even meaning 'sorry' in the context of 'regret' rather than 'apologise']. Just once. Admit that it's sad that children are dead. Just.once.
Belarki: What are the stats in Gaza? IIRC, it's something like 2-300 Hamas dead out of a total of around 1000, so comparable to Afghanistan.
Rachamin: international law isn't really my thing, which is why I asked. The only areas of law I could really comment on aren't terribly relevant here (unless Hamas wants to default on some bank loans
). (The edit was an edit to the text of my post; no big deal).
Because it seems like some of you are begging the question; the argument seems to go 'Israelis wouldn't kill civilians, so if they are, the civilians must be at legitimate military targets, and therefore they must be being used as human shields'.
But we've seen Israeli soldiers killed by their own side; we've seen the UN compound shelled, both of which suggest at least the possibility that Israeli action is being mistargeted.
IT would also be nice to hear one of you say, just once: hey, we're sorry that those people died, rather than saying 'it was all someone else's fault'. [Even meaning 'sorry' in the context of 'regret' rather than 'apologise']. Just once. Admit that it's sad that children are dead. Just.once.
Belarki: What are the stats in Gaza? IIRC, it's something like 2-300 Hamas dead out of a total of around 1000, so comparable to Afghanistan.
Rachamin: international law isn't really my thing, which is why I asked. The only areas of law I could really comment on aren't terribly relevant here (unless Hamas wants to default on some bank loans
). (The edit was an edit to the text of my post; no big deal).
Kul69
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Nov 11, 2003
- Messages
- 2,675
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-...dangered-military-tactics-both-sides-20090108
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4314898.stm
http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=45397
Before all the Israel fan boys start going wild, Hamas is also guilty of not taking into account civilian safety but everyone seems to understand that already. What isn't so clear is that Israel does it as well and oftentimes in a MUCH MORE direct way in terms of tying people up and forcing them to stay or using them as negotiators or whatever. Hamas is simply guilty of firing near civilians which puts them in danger.
rachamim
Bluelighter
Infinite: Whether or not HAMAS is choosing to use children as "Human Shields," the children that die as a result of strikes on valid military targets (virtually 100% of the children killed) are LEGITMATE Collateral Damage.
However, HMAS DOES use the children as shileds. When you commandeer a UNRWA school to use as a Command and Control Centre, and then allow civlians including children to take shelter there, you are allowing them shelter because you intend to manipulate their presence.
The IDF can NEVER allow anyone, Israeli or otherwise, to take shelter in its facilities because that would contravene International Law. There ARE such entities as "Dual Use" targets but a school is a school is a school and there is no blurring of lines. IF you comandeer a school, which in itself is a contrvention, and then compound your crime by allowing civilians to gather there you are without a doubt a War Criminal.
"It would be nice to see someone say they were sorry those children died just once as opposed to passing blame.": Then I suggest you read my posts more carefully because I have said it at least 4 thimes thus far.
I will add that I do not pass blame but offer a rational explanation to people who offer wholesale accusations and imply nefarious intent against Israel, that is called rational discourse, not shifting blame. Blame exists and it lies where I said, with the entity manipulating civlians for their own ends.
As for the figures, ICRC is an organisation that ONLY employes locals, in Gaza, AND employes terrorists. So, you are getting YOUR figures from HAMAS. Niiiiiice. Here are the real figures, as of 10 minutes ago from IDF GOC. Of 989 confirmed deaths, 22% are civlians. 22%.
I must also add that we are not operating in Afghanistan which is one of the least densely populated quarters of the plent but in the diametric opposite, the literally most desnsely populated area on Earth. Yet we still exceed the performance of forces in Afghanistan. Think about it.
However, HMAS DOES use the children as shileds. When you commandeer a UNRWA school to use as a Command and Control Centre, and then allow civlians including children to take shelter there, you are allowing them shelter because you intend to manipulate their presence.
The IDF can NEVER allow anyone, Israeli or otherwise, to take shelter in its facilities because that would contravene International Law. There ARE such entities as "Dual Use" targets but a school is a school is a school and there is no blurring of lines. IF you comandeer a school, which in itself is a contrvention, and then compound your crime by allowing civilians to gather there you are without a doubt a War Criminal.
"It would be nice to see someone say they were sorry those children died just once as opposed to passing blame.": Then I suggest you read my posts more carefully because I have said it at least 4 thimes thus far.
I will add that I do not pass blame but offer a rational explanation to people who offer wholesale accusations and imply nefarious intent against Israel, that is called rational discourse, not shifting blame. Blame exists and it lies where I said, with the entity manipulating civlians for their own ends.
As for the figures, ICRC is an organisation that ONLY employes locals, in Gaza, AND employes terrorists. So, you are getting YOUR figures from HAMAS. Niiiiiice. Here are the real figures, as of 10 minutes ago from IDF GOC. Of 989 confirmed deaths, 22% are civlians. 22%.
I must also add that we are not operating in Afghanistan which is one of the least densely populated quarters of the plent but in the diametric opposite, the literally most desnsely populated area on Earth. Yet we still exceed the performance of forces in Afghanistan. Think about it.
rachamim
Bluelighter
Infinite: On IL,etc. Yeah, that is the thing to a casual observer, as much as one could ever be casuqal over such violence, it comples them to make snap judgements. It is so far outside their normal scope of experience that they cannot even imagine that such things would be legal, etc. However IHL, IL in general, ROW exist for good reasosn, to offer rational guidelines with which to asses such actions.
Anytimes there is suffering and miserty it is hard to be objective.
Interesting figures I got yesterday though. To show that people pay far too much attention to the Mid-East, as I often claim, only since Jul 1st of 200-8 here on my island of Mindanao 600,000 people have been made refugee! That is almost 20% more than the entire "Palestinian "Refugee Population" in 1948! All in the space of 6 months and I dare say not 1 in 10WEsterners even know which country Mindanao belongs to let alone where it is on a map.
Yet, Israel protecting tiself under International Law provokes such outrage. Quite telling really.
Anytimes there is suffering and miserty it is hard to be objective.
Interesting figures I got yesterday though. To show that people pay far too much attention to the Mid-East, as I often claim, only since Jul 1st of 200-8 here on my island of Mindanao 600,000 people have been made refugee! That is almost 20% more than the entire "Palestinian "Refugee Population" in 1948! All in the space of 6 months and I dare say not 1 in 10WEsterners even know which country Mindanao belongs to let alone where it is on a map.
Yet, Israel protecting tiself under International Law provokes such outrage. Quite telling really.
rachamim
Bluelighter
Kul: "Amnesty Internationa's claims of both Gazans and Israelis using children as Human Shileds.": First off, mnsty is not an objective observer, it has an ideological stake and not only because it was formed by, and continues to be dominated by Communists but because it has consistently made baseless accusations against Israel while ignoring any and all against any opposing party.
Simply review the number of reports critical of Israel, and then against any other entity, not even in the Mid-East but worldwide!
Furthermore, it has noone actually on the ground there and so is blowing smoke. While it is clear that HAMAS is doing so in that they have comandeered schools and then allowed (many reports say forced) children and others to gether there, there is nothing at all to suggest any Israeli anywhere is using anyone as a shield.
It is beyond ironic that Kul would highlight one of the most telling parts of that "report." "It is well known..." Well known? By who? The Wizard of Oz? How do you quantify such a thing? "It is well know." IT IS WELL KNOWN That right there is showing you that the report is worthless.
STATISTICS, not baseless accusations. Offering that it is "well known" that AFTER terrorists use a civlian structure they often leave so that Israel's "RETALIATION," here is the 2nd telling piece. We do NOT "retaliate." WWe take legal action to safeguard against further attack. One would imagine that were anything so "well known" that once terrorists fled so would civlians!
Fact of the matter is this: When a mortar is fired into Israel, BY LAW we must try and neutralise that threat. To not do so would make us remiss towards our own population AS WELL AS GAZAN CIVLIANS given the fact that as often as shells land in Israel there is a 66% more liklihood that they will land in Gaza itself due to poor equipment and /or training. The more than 8000 over 36 months? An estimated 16,000 fell within Gaza while trying to reach the border.
"Israeli soldiers have taken over Gazan homes.": That is de rigeur in any military operation anywhere in the world. Sadly, we can not set up our 2 men tents in the middle of the street but instead ensconce ourselves in any available structure choosing those that offer us the most safety. WHEN we do use a building occupied by civlians we pay for their time and discomfort, IN CASH. Funny your report does not talk about that.
"The IDF has forced civlians at gunpoint to enter buildings before them.": YES, 7 years ago and it was wrong then, JUST AS I DISCUSSED IN THE THREAD ABOUT IT. NOT NOW- NOT IN GAZA. Next please...
As for the rest of your post, Infinite is talking about the current situation in Gaza, not in the so called "WB" in 2002. Please try to keep your mind on the subject at and. Also, while Israel DID do that 7 or 8 years ago, HAMAS is doing it today.
Simply review the number of reports critical of Israel, and then against any other entity, not even in the Mid-East but worldwide!
Furthermore, it has noone actually on the ground there and so is blowing smoke. While it is clear that HAMAS is doing so in that they have comandeered schools and then allowed (many reports say forced) children and others to gether there, there is nothing at all to suggest any Israeli anywhere is using anyone as a shield.
It is beyond ironic that Kul would highlight one of the most telling parts of that "report." "It is well known..." Well known? By who? The Wizard of Oz? How do you quantify such a thing? "It is well know." IT IS WELL KNOWN That right there is showing you that the report is worthless.
STATISTICS, not baseless accusations. Offering that it is "well known" that AFTER terrorists use a civlian structure they often leave so that Israel's "RETALIATION," here is the 2nd telling piece. We do NOT "retaliate." WWe take legal action to safeguard against further attack. One would imagine that were anything so "well known" that once terrorists fled so would civlians!
Fact of the matter is this: When a mortar is fired into Israel, BY LAW we must try and neutralise that threat. To not do so would make us remiss towards our own population AS WELL AS GAZAN CIVLIANS given the fact that as often as shells land in Israel there is a 66% more liklihood that they will land in Gaza itself due to poor equipment and /or training. The more than 8000 over 36 months? An estimated 16,000 fell within Gaza while trying to reach the border.
"Israeli soldiers have taken over Gazan homes.": That is de rigeur in any military operation anywhere in the world. Sadly, we can not set up our 2 men tents in the middle of the street but instead ensconce ourselves in any available structure choosing those that offer us the most safety. WHEN we do use a building occupied by civlians we pay for their time and discomfort, IN CASH. Funny your report does not talk about that.
"The IDF has forced civlians at gunpoint to enter buildings before them.": YES, 7 years ago and it was wrong then, JUST AS I DISCUSSED IN THE THREAD ABOUT IT. NOT NOW- NOT IN GAZA. Next please...
As for the rest of your post, Infinite is talking about the current situation in Gaza, not in the so called "WB" in 2002. Please try to keep your mind on the subject at and. Also, while Israel DID do that 7 or 8 years ago, HAMAS is doing it today.
rachamim
Bluelighter
I jhust caught the last part of Kul's post. "Typing people up" and "forcing them to work as negotiators," never happened in the worst days. Usual nonsense from propagandists. In case it has not been clear enough for you Kul, our Courts rule against us when we do something wrong, and thus it ceases to continue. We have never "Tied people up" in their homes, etc. TRy arguing your posion based ON FACTS, not fantasy. Thanks in advance.
This dynamic is convoluted enough without fantasy entering it.
This dynamic is convoluted enough without fantasy entering it.
static_mind
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2005
- Messages
- 1,379
You dont seem to believe israel can do anything wrong. Your a fanatic.
rachamim
Bluelighter
If you had actually tried to read my posts you would actually find a much different reality. I have my own criticisms of my country, as any person should. The operative differenc ebeing that mine are based on actual fact and not media hyperbole.
If you try and talk about Israel purposely killing children as hundreds of millions of viewers watch on theri tellys you are not in touch with reality.
If however you want to talk about limlitations in the IAF for non-Jewish Israelis, I can go one better. If you want to talk about Lavon, I will go toe to toe. If you want to talk about Pollard, I will talk you to death and about disparity in our Hate Laws favouring non-Jews over Jews, we can talk all day. Civli Courts in the hands of the Religious Sector? It is a crime!!! But again, on THIS subject it is total BS.
It is interesting to note though, that as briefly as you examined me and this thread, is probably as briefly as all the naysyers here have bothered to investigate the case at hand.
If you try and talk about Israel purposely killing children as hundreds of millions of viewers watch on theri tellys you are not in touch with reality.
If however you want to talk about limlitations in the IAF for non-Jewish Israelis, I can go one better. If you want to talk about Lavon, I will go toe to toe. If you want to talk about Pollard, I will talk you to death and about disparity in our Hate Laws favouring non-Jews over Jews, we can talk all day. Civli Courts in the hands of the Religious Sector? It is a crime!!! But again, on THIS subject it is total BS.
It is interesting to note though, that as briefly as you examined me and this thread, is probably as briefly as all the naysyers here have bothered to investigate the case at hand.
rachamim
Bluelighter
WAIT! Did I not just talk about using Human Shields several years ago? Are you even reading the thread? Just as I said...
Kul69
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Nov 11, 2003
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Amnesty, Guardian, Times, BBC, all under Arab control according to you.
Do you think the reason there are no reporters "on the ground" there is because Israel has banned them and even rammed a civilian mercy ship delivering aid and threatened to shoot and ram another one? Now why would they not want to allow any reporters in?
Actually it is Israel that has forced civilians into buildings and then shelled them. Quite literally made people leave their homes and gather in a building then attacked it. I'd source it but sources mean nothing to you. Besides you'll just claim that there weren't any reporters there so it's all made up even though it's Israel preventing any reporters from getting in.
My first link is from a current Amnesty International report which you dismiss as being under Arab control.
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-u...sides-20090108
Again from my previous post..