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  • Current Events & Politics Moderators: deficiT | tryptakid | Foreigner

Israel is under attack

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Mjäll said:
Lol why do you feel the need to insult me

No offense taken
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Insult you how? You don't consider yourself the least bit contrarian or misanthropic? Prone to reject all sides of a debate? Dislike of humanity and or society?
 
mal3volent said:
I'm not "grouping" anyone together. I'm simply asking you to observe the phenomenon that is happening -- SJWs, Marxists, revolutionaries, leftists aligning themselves with individuals who they used to consider morally reprehensible. It's bigger than just Jgrimez and you, obviously. This is a phenomenon I've been observing for years now. It's the horseshoe theory -- look it up.
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The only thing that's aligning is the perspective on one singular topic, that's hardly something to consider notable. Not to mention there is also the intersection of some people dislike Zionism and neonazis hating Judaism. Those are also two entirely different perspectives that align on the subject of Israel but only barely and for entirely different reasons. But it has become obvious to me that there are individuals who can't seem to grasp the concept of Zionism being different than Judaism so they go around shouting "but you're on the same side as those antisemites, that makes you antisemitic!" It's absurd
 
someguyontheinternet said:
The only thing that's aligning is the perspective on one singular topic, that's hardly something to consider notable.
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Donald Trump GIF by Election 2016
 
someguyontheinternet said:
But it has become obvious to me that there are individuals who can't seem to grasp the concept of Zionism being different than Judaism so they go around shouting "but you're on the same side as those antisemites, that makes you antisemitic!" It's absurd
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Swilow and I have both been critical of many things Israel has done. And Netanyahu. Lol.

To be clear, I don't think you are antisemitic. Nor are most people in this thread. There are definitely a couple though. And I wish those on the left would do a better job of denouncing them rather than tacitly empowering them just because you share a common enemy.
 
Yes, the western world is responsible for creating most of these extreme terrorist groups - some were actually set up by the west, others a reaction to centuries of the west plundering their countries and treating them like crap. You could also lump in most of the third world.

We created this mess, unless there's an alternate history I'm not aware of.

Again, these things don't just happen overnight or without some sort of reason.
 
montel said:
Yes, the western world is responsible for creating most of these extreme terrorist groups - some were actually set up by the west, others a reaction to centuries of the west plundering their countries and treating them like crap. You could also lump in most of the third world.

We created this mess, unless there's an alternate history I'm not aware of.

Again, these things don't just happen overnight or without some sort of reason.
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If we go with your logic -- absolving oppressed peoples everywhere of all moral agency and personal accountability -- where does that ultimately end?

Notice I've never said, "well, the Jews have been persecuted for thousands of years, enslaved, displaced, holocausted, maligned.... of course they act out with disproportionate military force against their enemies! They can't be expected to conform with international law when they hold centuries of generational trauma!"

We don't give serial killers/mass shooters that luxury either. Most of them were probably severely abused as children but we still hold them accountable. If they shoot up a movie theater or night club or elementary school, or they bomb an abortion clinic...we don't take their past trauma into consideration.

Why? Because history is one big story of oppression and trauma. For every person with a shitty past who chooses to inflict further devastation onto someone else, there are thousands who don't. What about those people? What kind of society are you promoting when you advocate for this toxic bullshit?
 
All of the squabbling about who is agreeing with who from what groups is a bunch of nonsense that only serves to distract from the issue at hand, that Israel has been the aggressor for decades and it's efforts and methods to crush Hamas only harm innocent civilians and creates more terrorists

Israel needs to change the way it treats Palestinians if it wants to get rid of extremists
 
someguyontheinternet said:
The only thing that's aligning is the perspective on one singular topic, that's hardly something to consider notable. Not to mention there is also the intersection of some people dislike Zionism and neonazis hating Judaism. Those are also two entirely different perspectives that align on the subject of Israel but only barely and for entirely different reasons. But it has become obvious to me that there are individuals who can't seem to grasp the concept of Zionism being different than Judaism so they go around shouting "but you're on the same side as those antisemites, that makes you antisemitic!" It's absurd
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I have not been following this thread closely enough to claim this applies to any of our members but its absolutely an issue, creating a false intersectionality that just adds insult to injury with regards to one of the most upsetting situations in 21st C. international affairs.
 
montel said:
There's a great book called 'The History of the Middle East' by Peter Mansfield.

I'd urge anyone with even half an interest in what's happening to give it a read. I was given a copy a few years back by a friend - and it's certainly opened my eyes to what's happening. You need to understand the history of how Israel came to be in order to comprehend the chaos we're seeing now.

Some take-away bits:

Most sane people knew Israel would never work, even before it was ever really put in motion - when there were just 10,000 Israelis farming small plots of land around the turn of the 20th century - surrounded by just under 1 million Arabs.

When the idea was proposed, most American Jews were completely against the idea - so much so that the USA never even sent a delegation to check it out - that's how unconvinced they were.

The main bone of contention all boils down to immigration. Many times, the surrounding Arab countries said "okay - but there must be a limit on how many Jews arrive each year - in order to keep things balanced in favour of the Arab populations. Israel continually ignored this and just kept sending them over - well in excess of whatever quota they'd been given. This kept going on for decades, until the point where the Arab states lost faith in Israel (and the Western governments that supported it) because they believed they couldn't trust them at their word.

It is way, way, way more complicated than this - but ultimately, I find it hard to not see what Israel is doing (and has been doing) to Palestine as EXACTLY the same as what the Nazis did to them. No "war" can justify the mass murder of over 10,000 women and children "in the name of terror". What we are seeing is a war crime - or let's be more specific here; ethnic cleansing - because there's no other plausible explanation.

But what about the brutality of Hamas' attacks? Indeed - but who made Hamas? People don't wake up psychotic bloodthirsty murderers - that tends to happen over an extended period of suffering. To quote the UN chief - it didn't happen in a vacuum.

Right at the very beginning the alternative location they were offered was somewhere in Uganda - and wouldn't that have made much more sense? All this death over a religious site that is, for all intents and purposes, just rubble and rocks and buildings that have been built and demolished and then rebuilt over and over again over thousands of years.
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mal3volent said:
If we go with your logic -- absolving oppressed peoples everywhere of all moral agency and personal accountability -- where does that ultimately end?

Notice I've never said, "well, the Jews have been persecuted for thousands of years, enslaved, displaced, holocausted, maligned.... of course they act out with disproportionate military force against their enemies! They can't be expected to conform with international law when they hold centuries of generational trauma!"

We don't give serial killers/mass shooters that luxury either. Most of them were probably severely abused as children but we still hold them accountable. If they shoot up a movie theater or night club or elementary school, or they bomb an abortion clinic...we don't take their past trauma into consideration.

Why? Because history is one big story of oppression and trauma. For every person with a shitty past who chooses to inflict further devastation onto someone else, there are thousands who don't. What about those people? What kind of society are you promoting when you advocate for this toxic bullshit?
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You can't just brush off hundreds of years of imperialism (be it British, French, Russian, etc...) as something so general. These are very specific acts throughout history that have lead us to where we are today.

You're trying to turn something very specific into some sort of broader philosophical debate.

There's no hiding from the facts - we came, we saw, we stole - this was the West's motto when dealing with the middle east and just about every poor nation on this planet they chose to invade. Our history is shameful and barbaric.

It's far easier to extract what you want for peanuts when a country is divided and in turmoil. Of course, the official mandates were to 'educate' these foreign lands - but the reality was something far different. It's all documented - be it in diplomat's journals or official records. Most officers disregarded the mandate because they genuinely believed these people were unfit to govern themselves.

The birth of Israel ties into all of this - the very idea was suggested at the peak of the British Empire (no coincidence) and was it only ever established because of the British (the Balfour Agreement) and their hold over the territory.

We can study the past and point to specific moments all throughout its inception to present day - this isn't some greater discussion about good vs. evil.

Truth be told, it's a long story of one tragic mistake after another - both Arabs and Israelis had various deals on the table over the years and both seemed just as stubborn as the other when it came to negotiating. But one thing is certain - Israel hasn't just 'encroached' on their land - they went a lot further. They took most of it illegally and against the requests of most other nations and then forced the Palestinans to live in increasingly smaller areas of land - to the point where they are now effectively prisoners in their own country. If you can call it a country?

Israel created Hamas - the conditions they force them to live in create these people. Or were they just born bad?
 
someguyontheinternet said:
The meat grinder of Europe, because they couldn't have lived in the US? What, you think Britain would have tried gassing them too? That's ridiculous, there was literally zero reason to create Israel
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6 million people/2000 years worth of reason. You seem more understanding of the Nakba than you do the Holocaust which says it all.

Just consider that nearly every European nation expelled the Jews at one time or another, and that Britain and allies knew the Holocaust was underway. The US of the era was a genuinely racially divided nation. You can't truly claim the Jews were going to feel safe in the country that segregated previously enslaved blacks AND knew the Holocaust was raging and turned refugees away.
 
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montel said:
There's no hiding from the facts - we came, we saw, we stole - this was the West's motto when dealing with the middle east and just about every poor nation on this planet they chose to invade. Our history is shameful and barbaric.
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That was the motto of just the West? So no conquering went on anywhere else? It was just Kumbaya all across Eastern Europe and Asia, Africa, and South America? Do you have any idea how "barbaric" civilizations in Africa and the Americas were towards each other before we got there? Which geographical region of earth is blameless in this regard?

montel said:
The birth of Israel ties into all of this - the very idea was suggested at the peak of the British Empire (no coincidence) and was it only ever established because of the British (the Balfour Agreement) and their hold over the territory.
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So an Empire decided to carve up some of its land and push some people out. Modern day Israelis should be responsible for this, why? Again-- you live on occupied land too. You are currently benefiting from some bloody conquest that happened at some point in history. Talk on the internet is cheap. Turn over half your income to the appropriate charity and rent your basement out to a native for free.

montel said:
Israel created Hamas - the conditions they force them to live in create these people. Or were they just born bad?
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No, they weren't born bad. They were born good and then grew up being indoctrinated into hate. With the help of a religion (that when interpreted literally) is very violent and hateful. You can say the same thing about almost all religions, but Islam continues to get a pass and faces no outside pressure to reform itself. Where is the push for secularism in the Muslim world? Where is the push for progressive democracy, robust rights for women, tolerance of homosexuals, etc?
 
mal3volent said:
I'm not "grouping" anyone together. I'm simply asking you to observe the phenomenon that is happening -- SJWs, Marxists, revolutionaries, leftists aligning themselves with individuals who they used to consider morally reprehensible. It's bigger than just Jgrimez and you, obviously. This is a phenomenon I've been observing for years now. It's the horseshoe theory -- look it up.
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Oddly enough I fall rather squarely in centrist territory. Although I suppose I am a bit of a contrarian/misanthrope and do let some "conspiracy theories" hold water. IDK about global elites pulling strings behind closed doors - I think they do it rather openly tbh.

EDIT: When I say global elites I am not referring to Jewish people as I think it has been implied here that when "global elites" are mentioned that it is some sort of dog whistle. Global elites are just as likely if not more likely to be Roman Catholics / Christians / Muslim as Jewish. If anything it's just the people with money and power at the very tippy top imo. If anything they are as likely to be Godless heathens who worship their own self as Divine Beings to lord over the rest of us poor fools.

EDIT EDIT: George Bush did 9/11
 
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mal3volent said:
Insult you how? You don't consider yourself the least bit contrarian or misanthropic? Prone to reject all sides of a debate? Dislike of humanity and or society?
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I think you should chill down if you're not even understanding your own post.

I'll explain it later if needed.
 
mal3volent said:
whatever you say man. I will chill down and wait for you to explain how I'm wrong.
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Did you forget that what needs explanation is how your insult was an insult?

You just defaulted to that right/wrong kneejerk enthusiasm over awful middle eastern bullshit and death?

We weren't even discussing whether you're wrong about something. You were challenging my assertion that you insulted me, which you obviously did but that's totally cool.
 
Mjäll said:
You just defaulted to that right/wrong kneejerk enthusiasm

We weren't even discussing whether you're wrong about something.
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Mjäll said:
You were challenging my assertion that you insulted me, which you obviously did but that's totally cool.
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So we weren't talking right/wrong, you were making an assertion and I was challenging it. Oh ok, I see the difference. Yeah.
 
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