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Israel and Gaza

BlindHelperMonkey said:
hey tony tiger.. you got the typical warm welcome laid out from shm i see, its best to just ignore him - he's a war veteran yknow


oh and bands of hamas militants filmed dragging around town the corpses of 'informers' they apparently caught on chains behind motorbikes. real civilised bunch
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They shot 6 people for collaborating with israel.
 
Man, that lot over there don't give up do they? Honestly! If they can't play nicely with their toys we should take them away!

I'm very dissapointed with the delayed reaction of Obama's admin, & by what I feel is the biased reporting in the West.

I personally hold each party equally guilty. I would not ever advocate harming of civilians whether by accident or by targetting them. I would prefer NO people got hurt, whether serving in the forces or not, on either side. I have unfortunate personal experience with terrorism & I believe that Israels actions are terrorism as much as anything Hamas or any other terrorist organisation does. By the same token, if perhaps Hamas spent as much money & effort feeding their people as they did "targetting! Israel perhaps Israel would ease up on it's blockade & allow some economic developement.

I've been watching this shit in the Middle East my whole adult life & I hate it :( I find it compelling to follow, but really depressing that so little progress has been made that blood-letting & almost medievil violence & terror are still the only language the two sides seem to use with one another.

Eventually, with multi-lateral security perhaps the Two-State Solution could come about. Israel IS however the country in the driving seat out there, & Israel needs to take steps, take risks, trust... & hope. America needs to push hard in this direction, now that re-election for Obama is no longer an issue. Four or five years is probably not long enough...
 
Marmalade said:
new vice article on the cyber elements of the Gaza situation
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Interesting

Israel’s Finance Minister has said that the government has “deflected 44 million cyber attacks on government websites” and called this wave of attacks a “second front” in this conflict.
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they are probably counting every single IP packet to come up with that '44 million', to call that a second front is absurd. It sounds lofty but in actual fact it equates to some flickering lights on firewall appliances and a bunch of logs. Scarrrry stuff!
 
I'm very dissapointed with the delayed reaction of Obama's admin
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What exactly is the US going to do about whats going on over there, or the president for that matter?


Israel is going to do whatever the fuck they want, so is hamas. Its not our job to police the world every time theres a scuffle over there. The only rational reaction obama/the us can have, is to say israel is on their own, and what happens over there is not our responsibility to clean up. We've been interfering in other countries problems for the last 50 years all across the globe, and it hasn't worked out so well.
 
Si Ingwe said:
I would not ever advocate harming of civilians whether by accident or by targetting them. I would prefer NO people got hurt, whether serving in the forces or not, on either side. I have unfortunate personal experience with terrorism & I believe that Israels actions are terrorism as much as anything Hamas or any other terrorist organisation does. By the same token, if perhaps Hamas spent as much money & effort feeding their people as they did "targetting! Israel perhaps Israel would ease up on it's blockade & allow some economic developement.

I've been watching this shit in the Middle East my whole adult life & I hate it :( I find it compelling to follow, but really depressing that so little progress has been made that blood-letting & almost medievil violence & terror are still the only language the two sides seem to use with one another.

Eventually, with multi-lateral security perhaps the Two-State Solution could come about. Israel IS however the country in the driving seat out there, & Israel needs to take steps, take risks, trust... & hope. America needs to push hard in this direction, now that re-election for Obama is no longer an issue. Four or five years is probably not long enough...
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well fucking said.
 
and firing rockets into residential areas is in accordance with international law is it? if he was indeed in charge then blood was on his hands, besides - he's got his 52 subjugated virgins now, all in the mould of susan boyle


anyway, im sure he caused his own share of grief and pain to true innocents at some point ascending the terrorist career ladder. strange how his god didnt tell him to duck though, after all that praying too - how inconsiderate
 
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Live by the sword... eh?

daytryptr said:
What exactly is the US going to do about whats going on over there, or the president for that matter?


Israel is going to do whatever the fuck they want, so is hamas. Its not our job to police the world every time theres a scuffle over there. The only rational reaction obama/the us can have, is to say israel is on their own, and what happens over there is not our responsibility to clean up. We've been interfering in other countries problems for the last 50 years all across the globe, and it hasn't worked out so well.
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I agree completely but we can't stop interfering in this particular case at this particular time if we there's any chance taking action & forcing dialogue might ease a dangerous & deadly conflagration.

As the US is Israel's main supplier of arms, & because the US is the dominant Superpower with leverage in almost every country on earth they're in the best possible position to broker peace. If Israel makes a mess of it's country & the Middle East in general with it's paranoid war-mongering using weapnary supplied by the US then I personally beleive that yes, it's the responsibility of the US to assist in tidying things up. Arms sales are sadly the single largest money spinning business of the planet, with the UK a major player. Think of the money that's been made out of the conflict in Israel/Palestine by the US, if the US could spend the same amount of time & money on resolving the conflict, I am certain progress could have been quicker.

Mostly US Presidents stay clear of this intractable issue & who could blame them. But the situation requires a backbone & if Obama doesn't have a strong enough one I see no change within another generation. By the same token, pressure must be levied on Hamas & all other terrorist organisations in Gaza/West Bank to stop all/any cross border activity for the forseeable future hopefully giving the Israeli's time to feel secure & eventually progress the process of peace.

Yes, Israel is in the driving seat in the region, but no America is absolutely not powerless to assist or pressure the parties invloved!

PS The ceasefire was brought by pressure on Israel from the US & by pressure on Hamas by Egypt. Each side has it's supporters & each side has to listen to what they say. In this case, at least for now, it appears to have worked.
 
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If one wants to try to wash one's hands of this entire matter by declaring both sides equally culpable, that's fine. But doing so requires an acknowledgment that the US government is doing nothing of the sort. It is fueling, funding and feeding the Israeli war machine, and, with its own militaristic conduct, is legitimizing the premises of Israeli aggression.

This is exactly what I was referencing when I wrote on Saturday that one must stop pretending that the US is some sort of helpless, uninvolved party in this war between two distant, foreign entities. That is complete fiction. If an American citizen really wants to advocate for neutrality on the ground that both sides are equally horrible and they're sick of the whole conflict and wish it would all just go away, then the place to begin with that advocacy is US government policy which, as unpleasant as it might be to face, has long been, and remains more than ever, a key force that drives the bloodshed.
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...
 
As the US is Israel's main supplier of arms, & because the US is the dominant Superpower with leverage in almost every country on earth they're in the best possible position to broker peace.
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history shows otherwise, and the fact thay we gave them guns/arms/missles/tanks/nukes/etc just shows how comitted we are to brokering world peace. Always makes me think of Bill Hicks "arming the world" bit. call me crazy, but i see US military/international action as protecting geopolitical resources from other superpowers. We dont fight for peace, we don't fight for democracy/justice for those people. we do it because it serves our interests.

We gave the taliban weaponry to fight off the solviets, then invaded their country, still have not left, and their alleged close affiliation with al-quaeda is debatable. imho we're there for the poppies and natural resources. the taliban want sovergn control of their country, and thats why they fight us, thats why they fought the solviets. sure they're a bunch of fundamentalist warlords not interested in democracy, but that never was a good reason to go in and stay for as long as we have.

back on subject about israel, perhaps theres some relevance (and in afghanistan as well) for responsibility for interfering and not doing any good relatively, but at what point are we going to realize any kind of interference hasnt had the high minded idealistic goals met upon inception into these forays? I think our record speaks for itself. WW2 is where i draw the line as far as neccessary intervention, but that was a global war that had a good likelyhood of arriving at our doorstep. not to mention the human cost from goddamn hitler. but we fucked that one up too by dropping nukes on japanese civilian targets.

afaik everything after that has been a colossal fuckup. If they aren't explicitly fighting us, its not our problem afaic. I can't rationalize the people that we have/had/will have in office making these decisions will do so in a way that promotes peace and democracy. Shit look what the CIA did in central/latin america. It never ends well, and all promises made going in have been a failure. which leads me to believe we don't fight to help others, we fight for protection of our status as the big slugger, and protection of resources from the other big powers. It has nothing to do with people, but control of land and resources the other big geopolitical powers are after just like we are.

A bit cynical, but it just makes too much sense to me to not be true.

Thats why i will always advocate non-interventionism, with the exception of events that pose a realistic and serious risk to our country. the war on terror is a farce in that respect. Ovberblown beyond scale. Obviously for alterior motives.

Thats why i'm very skeptical about the claim we do what we do fo world peace and democracy. Its a load of shit if you ask me, spoonfed orwellian bullshit, i just wont eat.

yes, we fueled the fire over there, and we are responsible for backing israel's ethnic fascist government. We share alot of responsibility. but so does the rest of the world. its just superpowers fighting proxy wars, and i'm sick of it. How we deal with the fact we armed israel to the teeth is a hard question to answer, all i can say is they are one of many countries all over the globe we did that with. perhaps we dug our own grave in that respect.

I just can't concieve how this time will be any different.
 
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