Israel and Gaza

[StoneHappyMonday]

If it makes you feel any better I think you are probably just a trend follower rather than an anti-semite. Blah blah.

If I were you I'd give up thinking altogether. You don't appear to be very good at it.

 

[Sepher]

Can you explain why this picture seem "anti-semetic" to you please.

Well duh! It's critical of the state of Israel as a political entity, Israel as a political entity is conflated with Zionism as a religio-political ideological position, Zionism is conflated with Jewishness as religion, Jewishness as religion is conflated with Jewishness as race, that race being a semitic one. Therefore any and all criticism of the state of Israel = rabid anti-semitism from not-so-closet Nazis who think the SS had the right idea and probably didn't go far enough. Keep up Ceres, keep up!

 

[Tony The Tiger]

Can you explain why this picture seem "anti-semetic" to you please.

It plays up the age old stereotype of the Jewish puppet master. Hague must only agree with Israels actions because he is being manipulated by the evil Jew with his hand up his backside, it's not possible he might simply have come to the conclusion that it was right on his own. Also, yeah he's obviously got a big nose, but drawing it bigger and putting a Menorah in front of him so we all know this is about Judaism rather than just Israel and Zionism.

The Arab news agencies on the whole are a whole lot more honest and direct, but not actually too different to that picture:

This is the side you are supporting:
"Peace of us means the destruction of Israel. We are preparing for an all out war, a war which will last for generations.

~Yasser Arafat~

"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel. For our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of Palestinian people, since Arab national interest demand that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism".

~ Zahir Muhse'in ~

Personally this encapsulates the whole situation:
"There will be no peace until they will love their children more than they hate us."

-Golda Meir-

If your neighbor was 7ft tall and weighed 20 stone, but he played loud music that annoyed you, would you go and slap him? No, cus he'd beat your arse silly. Would you slap him, take a pasting, then hope that other neighbors of yours would jump in because they pitied you perhaps? Still, pretty stupid.

 

[Tony The Tiger]

If I were you I'd give up thinking altogether. You don't appear to be very good at it.

I don't feel inclined to believe badandwicked that you aren't a total dick if i'm honest. You seem like someone who can't stand to have their views questioned, and for that matter certainly can't defend them.

Well duh! It's critical of the state of Israel as a political entity, Israel as a political entity is conflated with Zionism as a religio-political ideological position, Zionism is conflated with Jewishness as religion, Jewishness as religion is conflated with Jewishness as race, that race being a semitic one. Therefore any and all criticism of the state of Israel = rabid anti-semitism from not-so-closet Nazis who think the SS had the right idea and probably didn't go far enough. Keep up Ceres, keep up!

Interesting you should mention the SS. Did you know a lot of their soldiers were recruited from Palestine, and Hitler had agreed with the Mufti of Jerusalem to take care of their Jewish problem once he was finished in Europe? Did you also know that the Arabs blocked tens of thousands of fleeing Jews who instinctively went in that direction, for those Jews to wind up in concentration camps?

 

[Ceres]

It plays up the age old stereotype of the Jewish puppet master. Hague must only agree with Israels actions because he is being manipulated by the evil Jew with his hand up his backside, it's not possible he might simply have come to the conclusion that it was right on his own. Also, yeah he's obviously got a big nose, but drawing it bigger and putting a Menorah in front of him so we all know this is about Judaism rather than just Israel and Zionism.

It's called caricature, common to political cartoons from all over the world, get a life.

You have no idea who I support (Arafat is long dead for goodness sake).

But these are some recent quotes from very alive people on the side you seem to be supporting:

Israeli Interior Minister Eli Yishai - “The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages"

Gilad Sharon (son of Ariel Sharon) - “We need to flatten all of Gaza. The American’s didn’t stop with Hiroshima – the Japanese weren’t surrendering fast enough – so they hit Nagasaki too. There should be no electricity in Gaza, no gasoline or moving vehicles, nothing. Then they’d really call for a ceasefire,”

Michael Ben-Ari, member of Knesset and NUP - “There are no innocents in Gaza, don’t let any diplomats who want to look good in the world endanger your lives – mow them down!”

Even religious leaders joined the fray, with a prominent Israeli rabbi, Yaakov Yosef, the son of former chief rabbi, Ovadia Yosef, in a sermon at the Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron blessed IDF soldiers while urging them “to learn from the Syrians how to slaughter the enemy.”

A group of Israelis demonstrating in Tel Aviv on Thursday night shouted “They don’t deserve to live, they need to die”, “May your children die” and “Now we want to go back there [Gaza] and kick out all the Arabs”.

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

I don't feel inclined to believe badandwicked that you aren't a total dick if i'm honest. You seem like someone who can't stand to have their views questioned, and for that matter certainly can't defend

Each and every one of your replies to me has contained a ridiculous assertion about my character. Every one of them has been a mile off and serves to make you look more stupid, like a bad Derren Brown.

Why the fuck should I debate with something like that?

Your mindset disgusts me, I find you and your thoughts repulsive.

But it's quite funny to see you think you've thought up this mindset for yourself, objectively, no cultural brain-washing at all.

Pfft. Go away.

 

[Tony The Tiger]

It's called caricature, common to political cartoons from all over the world, get a life.

You have no idea who I support (Arafat is long dead for goodness sake).

But these are some recent quotes from very alive people on the side you seem to be supporting:

If you say so... to me it is very reminiscent of alot of anti-semetic cartoons. I guess the major difference for you is who is publishing the picture rather than what the picture contains.

 

[Tony The Tiger]

Each and every one of your replies to me has contained a ridiculous assertion about my character. Every one of them has been a mile off and serves to make you look more stupid, like a bad Derren Brown.

Why the fuck should I debate with something like that?

Your mindset disgusts me, I find you and your thoughts repulsive.

But it's quite funny to see you think you've thought up this mindset for yourself, objectively, no cultural brain-washing at all.

Pfft. Go away.

You have done nothing but drag your character through the dirt with each and every one of your replies. It was you who insulted me first with come round for tea comments/threats. If you can't be a grown up and can't stand to be in the vicinity of someone who is simply arguing the other side of the coin to you, perhaps you should unplug your modem and use the cord to hang yourself. As an non-participating observer of this forum over the last couple of weeks it has become very apparent you are extremely touchy. Not exactly a good advert for drugs not changing people's characters negatively are you? You have treated every single person who has disagreed with you about anything like dirt whilst they have been quite reasonable back, and then you make retrospective justifications for why you are so bitter and intolerant.

 

[Ceres]

Oh yeah, Michael Ben-Ari "... also told soldiers to ignore Goldstone; in reference to the UN commissioned Goldstone report on Israel’s 2008-2009 invasion of Gaza, which found evidence of war crimes and crimes against humanity. "

 

[Ceres]

If you say so... to me it is very reminiscent of alot of anti-semetic cartoons. I guess the major difference for you is who is publishing the picture rather than what the picture contains.

I suppose that menorah on the podium should be systematically removed from any pictorial representation of Netanyahu incase it looks 'anti-semetic' (as you like to spell it). Along with his big nose and ears.

That said, can we get on with discussing the politics of the situation rather than bitching please.

 

[Sepher]

Good find Ceres. And while my Hebrew is admittedly piss poor it's good enough to know that the word underneath the Menorah spells Israel ( Yod-Shin-Resh-Alef-Lamed ) which makes this

putting a Menorah in front of him so we all know this is about Judaism rather than just Israel and Zionism.

complete bollox. It's the state of Israel conflating the two here judging by that image through its use of symbolism like this, not that well known anti-semite Steve Bell.

 

[Tony The Tiger]

Hey look it's more pictures that aren't anti-semitic:

After all Jews are being puppet masters here, and they are evil, and they do have those big noses and wear those hats, right?

Again, not anti-semitic, Jews always need a star of David on them somewhere otherwise how would we know they're Jewish? I guess their big noses drawn disproportionately bigger gives it away slightly, but we do need to make extra sure.

I don't think many other races or politicians get this puppet master illustration done half as much. It is quite a common theme. The drawing of Jew features to disproportionate sizes is the equivalent of drawing black people like this:

They sure do have those big lips and that dark skin, it's just exaggerated for comedic effect, right?

There is little point in discussing the politics of this situation, because lets face it, are you ever going to change your opinion? No. Am I? Highly unlikely. But what I will say is that were the Palestinians to get the power to take Israel back I would support their right to do so, even if that was in 1000 years. This isn't about picking a side for me, it's about the losers laying down their arms and coming to the bargaining table as losers.

 

[Ceres]

There is little point in discussing the politics of this situation

yeah, because discussing things never got anyone anywhere where politics is concerned...

Nov. 20, 21:50 GMT: A building housing the Agence France-Presse office in Gaza has been hit by an Israeli airstrike, the MENA photo manager for AFP Patrick Baz tweeted. All AFP journalists are reportedly safe. Three Palestinian reporters killed in earlier attacks.

 

[Tony The Tiger]

yeah, because discussing things never got anyone anywhere where politics is concerned...

Nov. 20, 21:50 GMT: A building housing the Agence France-Presse office in Gaza has been hit by an Israeli airstrike, the MENA photo manager for AFP Patrick Baz tweeted. All AFP journalists are reportedly safe. Three Palestinian reporters killed in earlier attacks.

How does 2 people with no political power talking thousands of miles away solve an issue that has essentially been raging for thousands of years? This is just the current wave of violence and fighting in that area. If we lived another thousand years no doubt we would be talking about it then.

What I am interested in is what you think Israel should do about this situation? Just take it?

 

[Sepher]

Steve Bell's signature caricature style:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/stevebell?page=2

What conclusions can we draw from his pictures of David Cameron, or the Archbishop of Canterbury, Mitt Romney, fat cat energy companies or members of the royal family? He exagerates the features of all his subjects in much the same way for comedic effect, except in Bejamin Netanyahu's case where the exageration is clearly, necessarily motivated by dark and sinister motives? I think not!

It may be that deep within Steve Bell's subconscious mind there are historical images, possibly even originating from Nazi Germany or the Arab world like the ones you've posted Tony. That does not make the image or Steve Bell anti-semitic in and of itself. You need to look a little deeper at the artist's intent, and also look a little deeper for possible meanings. Jumping straight for the anti-semitic reading as if that's the only possible one available says as much about the reader of that image as it does the image itself.

 

[jancrow]

^ Sepher, agree strongly.

Let's have a look at a picture of Netanyahu:

Also, yeah he's obviously got a big nose, but drawing it bigger and putting a Menorah in front of him so we all know this is about Judaism rather than just Israel and Zionism.

Hogwash, look at Neanyahu's nose in that photo, then look at Steve Bell's drawing. He's actually diminished the size of the nose. Who knows what subconscious / semi-conscious / conscious forces are at play there - probably not Steve himself - but to say that he's drawn it bigger is plainly untrue, as plain as....

 

[Arnold]

Qassam galore infidels

 

[farmaz]

i'm waiting for the rockets to fly over my house on the way to and from dudley

lmao, remember all the shit about the EDL when they came there?........

was like a war zone, huge gangs of Asian people walking round with huge weapons looking for a war, not a good day tbh

 

[farmaz]

Next question.

*Yawn*

 

[BlindHelperMonkey]

hey tony tiger.. you got the typical warm welcome laid out from shm i see, its best to just ignore him - he's a war veteran yknow


oh and bands of hamas militants filmed dragging around town the corpses of 'informers' they apparently caught on chains behind motorbikes. real civilised bunch