Is there an upper limit to how much codeine your body can process in a day?

[Lysosomalstorage]

The histamine response from those dosages would be awful.

 

[blazR]

Indeed

 

[Jnowhere]

Wait that’s not that bad, how many doses can I take a day?

You would have use more than 30 pills per dose. Then their is the issue of the fact that codeine is weak compared to methadone, and even if all that Codeine could help, you could damage your body. Also you would probably need over 100 pills a day, plus CWE.
If we are talking about taking methadone to combat an addiction and not pain: Then you might want to try getting off methadone.
Yes, I have heard how difficult getting off Methadone is. A slow taper? Also there may be cost issue. Everything is more expensive in Europe, with hugh VAT(value added tax: whatever the fuck that means) on, well a lot of stuff. I am not sure what those wimpy little Tylenol 1's cost but they usually have 12.5 mg or less in them, and you probably would have to use several times a day.
You would have to figure out the cost( not sure about VAT taxes on medications in different countries in Europe.) Then figure out how to CWE a shitload of them.
Do you really want to spend that much time and effort, while on vacation? Not sure what they cost.
If you are going to spend the money, wouldn't you rather not spend the time, effort and money: to not be dope sick?
Can you ween yourself off methadone or find another legal drug that you could bring into Europe to avoid all that would be involved in you not getting sick?
Another member brought up something I didn't think of. You would probably itch like crazy the whole time with all that codeine.

 

[endlessnameless]

The histamine response from those dosages would be awful.

Its not what I'd consider 'awful': you know as soon as that histamine release hits you get quite a nice euphoria, although indeed the histamine release is quite intense. Begins in the extremities, up the legs, travels up from the fingers right up the head followed by an itchy scalp, red face and tingly ear-lobes coupled with a flush of warmth and mild euphoria.

That'll happen the first time if you do the CWE correctly and you manage a high yield, but don't expect it repeatedly if you're doing this daily (which I wouldn't recommend).

 

[polarthedog]

You would have use more than 30 pills per dose. Then their is the issue of the fact that codeine is weak compared to methadone, and even if all that Codeine could help, you could damage your body. Also you would probably need over 100 pills a day, plus CWE.
If we are talking about taking methadone to combat an addiction and not pain: Then you might want to try getting off methadone.
Yes, I have heard how difficult getting off Methadone is. A slow taper? Also there may be cost issue. Everything is more expensive in Europe, with hugh VAT(value added tax: whatever the fuck that means) on, well a lot of stuff. I am not sure what those wimpy little Tylenol 1's cost but they usually have 12.5 mg or less in them, and you probably would have to use several times a day.
You would have to figure out the cost( not sure about VAT taxes on medications in different countries in Europe.) Then figure out how to CWE a shitload of them.
Do you really want to spend that much time and effort, while on vacation? Not sure what they cost.
If you are going to spend the money, wouldn't you rather not spend the time, effort and money: to not be dope sick?
Can you ween yourself off methadone or find another legal drug that you could bring into Europe to avoid all that would be involved in you not getting sick?
Another member brought up something I didn't think of. You would probably itch like crazy the whole time with all that codeine

Actually, he's hoping he's a high metabolizer and converts the max 15% of codeine to morphine.

So you're kind of wrong with respect to codeine. The magic is from the morphine and some people can metabolize 15% of the dose of codeine to morphine.

what if I extracted all the codeine and converted itinto a stronger opiate ?

 

[snmfmy]

what if I extracted all the codeine and converted itinto a stronger opiate ?

That doesn't make any sense.

How are you going to convert it into a stronger opiate? The conversion to morphine happens in your liver.

If you're a talented enough chemist to start out with codeine and end up with something much stronger that can be identified as a known opiate and won't actually make you sick as in poisoned, I don't think you have to scrounge your opiates from codeine.

 

[AlsoTapered]

It varies hugely due to genetic differences. People are on a range of poor metabolizers to super metabolizers. Codeine is purely a prodrug so depending on where someone is in that range dictates the maximum effective dose.

 

[Jnowhere]

Actually, he's hoping he's a high metabolizer and converts the max 15% of codeine to morphine.

So you're kind of wrong with respect to codeine. The magic is from the morphine and some people can metabolize 15% of the dose of codeine to morphine.

Another member brought up the histamine issue. He would more than likely itch the whole time. Also thanks for saying kinda( most people are not as polite to me) And if it is anything like what I have experienced after I became allergic to alcohol, anti-histamines, even large quantities don't help much. Also would it be strong enough(the codeine converted to morphine) to combat dopesickness? That is also assuming 15% conversion. But the histamine issues could easily make the trip miserable.

 

[AlsoTapered]

Good point well made @Jnowhere a lot of people are subject to severe side-effects. In overdose, codeine doesn't often kill due to respiratory collapse but more often it's because it lowers the seizure-threshold.

 

[For_All_Seasons]

Been a sporadic visitor to BL for well over a decade but registered now because this is a subject on which I think I can offer something.

Codeine was my DOC for over 10 years (through lack of supply of any alternative, if nothing else...) and I've learned a couple of things relevant to your post.

1. Yes, there is a ceiling dose for codeine due (to the best of my knowledge) to the depletion of the CYP2D6 enzyme via the conversion to morphine. BUT... chronic use of codeine will allow you to increase dosage as tolerance builds presumably because the body produces more CYP2D6 following repeated depletion. Anything much larger than my usual dose would have little extra effect however, which is what leads me to believe my enzyme capacity increased over time rather than me having super metabolic abilities or whatever.

I was eventually taking 800mg at a time - way beyond any documented 'ceiling' dose I've seen.

2. You won't be able to rely on sourcing codeine in Europe. Other than here in the UK, France is the only country where you can buy codeine containing preparations over the counter. (Bear in mind it's a while since I've been, laws may have changed in the last handful of years) French pharmacies actually sell tablets that contain only 20mg codeine - in the UK you'll have to wrestle with CWE from ibuprofen, 62 tablets at a time to get a 800mg dose. Glad that shit is behind me but that's only because I graduated to heroin, so, swings and roundabouts... Would not recommend any of it to be quite honest.

As for other countries, I know Germany is most definitely a no-go for OTC opiates, and the EU will make sure everyone else will follow soon enough I'm sure.

But yeah, long story short if you're on methadone then stick with it, codeine isn't going to help you very much.

Happy to answer any questions.

 

[For_All_Seasons]

Another member brought up the histamine issue. He would more than likely itch the whole time. Also thanks for saying kinda( most people are not as polite to me) And if it is anything like what I have experienced after I became allergic to alcohol, anti-histamines, even large quantities don't help much. Also would it be strong enough(the codeine converted to morphine) to combat dopesickness? That is also assuming 15% conversion. But the histamine issues could easily make the trip miserable.

As a footnote to my last post, regarding histamine you're absolutely correct - a non-regular user will almost certainly hit an unbearable histamine reaction long before any ceiling dose.

 

[AlsoTapered]

@For_All_Seasons I noted the same but I thought it was an idiopathic response. Their is a minority who are termed ultra rapid metabolizers. They can metabolize even more. It also seems possible that upon chronic administration, the body will adapt in response to what is essentially a toxin.

I don't think anyone has ever studied this effect.

I appreciate your chipping in on this.

 

[For_All_Seasons]

@For_All_Seasons I noted the same but I thought it was an idiopathic response. Their is a minority who are termed ultra rapid metabolizers. They can metabolize even more. It also seems possible that upon chronic administration, the body will adapt in response to what is essentially a toxin.

I don't think anyone has ever studied this effect.

I appreciate your chipping in on this.

My pleasure, my motivation to register was the ability to offer experience that is probably quite unusual and as you say certainly not represented in any medical literature that I've encountered.

The adaptation response always seemed most plausible to me, as I've had the misfortune to learn first hand, the human body has an astounding capacity to adapt to even the harshest conditions that we might choose to subject it to...

 

[AlsoTapered]

The irony was that in the UK, the cheapest and most available form was codeine linctus with 600mg of codeine phosphate in solution for £5.

If you live close to an urban centre it's time-consuming to just smurf the pharmacies.

Those days are gone but for a while I had a mental map of every pharmacy in the 4th largest city in the UK. If you are only buying one bottle every couple of months, who notices?

Now one has to indulge in some (very) simple physical chemistry to arrive at pure codeine phosphate ant that £5 is now more like £20. I just got sick of that life.

 

[Jnowhere]

Sorry to be part of bursting your bubble P-Dog, but with all the info provided by other members: I would say you need a new plan.
No, cold copping heroin in Europe would be a real bad idea. Especially in France( that's what I have heard)
I would have to say getting off Methadone and staying clean would be your best option.( Through being on here and reading many posts about the misery and length of time, getting of methadone would be very hard)
I've read on here their may be other options to deal with your opiod dependence( depending on what is available in your area).
I still have the passport applications, that my dad(RIP) had for us before his problems started. We were both on controlled substances( benzos and opiods) but they are legal in legal in Europe. I missed my chance at back packing through Europe a long time ago.
However I missed that chance again later in life, but no backpacks or youth hostels. It was going to be my dad's retirement present to himself and me.
I will probably never go, I have the money but no desire, besides I can't drink.
If you are serious about backpacking through Europe, you'll need a new plan, a passport and a lot of money.( not nearly as much if you stay in youth hostels and book a flight well in advance) and don't wait till your too old to stay in hostels. It ain't like America, or are you Canadian?
Well, anyways getting cheap lodging, is pretty much, you staying at youth hostels. Good luck P-Dog

 

[For_All_Seasons]

I lived the smurfing life for many years. I was even travelling to other towns to sweep their pharmacies all day. Allow me to repeat myself: Would. Not. Recommend.

The linctus was gold only found one nearby pharmacy that stocked it, one of the sole remaining independents since chains never carried it. But I couldn't hack the taste before too long, horrible ultra-sweet lemon flavour stuff it was.

Also I thought I was in the 4th largest city? Not beside the Mersey are you?

The irony was that in the UK, the cheapest and most available form was codeine linctus with 600mg of codeine phosphate in solution for £5.

If you live close to an urban centre it's time-consuming to just smurf the pharmacies.

Those days are gone but for a while I had a mental map of every pharmacy in the 4th largest city in the UK. If you are only buying one bottle every couple of months, who notices?

Now one has to indulge in some (very) simple physical chemistry to arrive at pure codeine phosphate ant that £5 is now more like £20. I just got sick of that life.

I lived the smurfing life for many years. I was even travelling to other towns to sweep their pharmacies all day. Allow me to repeat myself: Would. Not. Recommend.


The linctus was gold only found one nearby pharmacy that stocked it, one of the sole remaining independents since chains never carried it. But I couldn't hack the taste before too long, horrible ultra-sweet lemon flavour stuff it was.


Also I thought I was in the 4th largest city? Not beside the Mersey are you?

 

[Jnowhere]

The irony was that in the UK, the cheapest and most available form was codeine linctus with 600mg of codeine phosphate in solution for £5.

If you live close to an urban centre it's time-consuming to just smurf the pharmacies.

Those days are gone but for a while I had a mental map of every pharmacy in the 4th largest city in the UK. If you are only buying one bottle every couple of months, who notices?

Now one has to indulge in some (very) simple physical chemistry to arrive at pure codeine phosphate ant that £5 is now more like £20. I just got sick of that life.

Smurf the pharmacies; that is one I haven't heard before. Lol

 

[AlsoTapered]

The verb smurf was invented to explain how gangs of tweakers would get in a van and drive from town to town all buying pseudoephedrine to make methamphetamine.

But yeah, it sucks.

I mean, you become a master of social engineering and you have a story worn smooth by it's repeated use but essentially you are lying to people. I don't like lying. Even to people I might never see again. It tarnishes the soul.

It's easy to get down to 300-400mg/day but after than it takes MONTHS of slowly cutting down.

I like not NEEDING a drug just to stay well. If it rains or their is snow. I can just stay home.

 

[snmfmy]

@For_All_Seasons I noted the same but I thought it was an idiopathic response. Their is a minority who are termed ultra rapid metabolizers. They can metabolize even more. It also seems possible that upon chronic administration, the body will adapt in response to what is essentially a toxin.

I don't think anyone has ever studied this effect.

I appreciate your chipping in on this.

There's inhibitor / inducer etiology with respect to some substrates and some CYP450 enzymes.

2d6 presents with significant genetic polymorphism that allows for widely varying rates of metabolism of opiates some extremely efficiently metabolize codeine to morphine.

The strong inhibitors that I can see being an issue are a few SSRIs, quinine because it's cut into so much street dope, and CBD actually.

Inhibition of 2d6 will prevent the metabolism of codeine to morphine and tramadol to desmethyl tramadol an inactive tramadol metabolite to an active metabolite and hydrocodone to hydromorphone.

One of the reasons people may say that there is inhibition could be saturation by other ligands. Almost every single SSRI, tricyclic antidepressant, novel antidepressant, amphetamine, beta blocker, antihistamine, NMDA antagonist the list is very very long. All these drugs are metabolized by 2d6, which means they're all taking up space in the cells and once they're saturated everything slows down.

I don't see any mention of adaptive inducement of cyp2d6 based on opiate use, however I haven't looked very hard.

That's what I got

 

[AlsoTapered]

There's inhibitor / inducer etiology with respect to some substrates and some CYP450 enzymes.

Did you know that within the field of medicinal chemistry, CYP2D6 inducers are considered an important target?

Get to Know an Enzyme: CYP2D6

The enzyme CYP2D6 affects the metabolism of many drugs, and its effect is altered by genetic variability.

www.pharmacytimes.com

It's proven very difficult to find a pharmacophore for potential agents. Glutethimide is the notorious one. A few medicines related to glutethimide are also inducers (methyprylon, pyrithyldione and piperidione). What is interesting is that glutethimide and the first two of the other three I mentioned are chiral. So I believe an important first step would be to resolve the isomers to discover if one isomer is responsible for enzyme induction.

If one could find a CYP2D6 inducer that was non-toxic and did not produce unacceptable side-effects (sedation would be a side-effect if induction is the stated goal) then it could be valuable.

It's not widely noted but different nations may use different medicines because the enzyme activity can be highly variable due to genetic factors. Put simply, a medicine might prove successful in trials in one ethnic group but not in another. Their are many factors but metabolism is an important one.

If anyone has references into research into CYP2D6, I would love to read them. It's proven a tough nut to crack.