Opioids is there a kratom to morphine dosage equivalent?

[xivixive]

took 40mg of hydrocodone the other day for the first time in 13 months and was expecting a nice buzz but felt absolutely nothing. not even the tiniest tickle.

i have been taking 15 grams of kratom 3x a day for awhile now, steadily increasing dose since the beginning of the year after getting a mild, albeit nice, buzz off of 10 grams back in january.

i also went about 16hours without any kratom for the first time a few days prior to that and felt kratom wd for the first time. the level of extremity in symptoms has me worried i was reckless in my decision to not give a damn about getting hooked after 6 months clean off a 13 year physical dependency on 'real' opiates. i've withdrawn from them all and it was similar to a day 3 without bupe after being on 8mg subs for a few weeks or day 2 without oxycodone after abruptly stopping 120mg's a day... this is not what i needed, i anticipated kratom wd to be a walk in the park since the buzz seems so benign...

so wondering if there is a kratom to morphine dosage equivalent calculation so i can gauge how much trouble i'm in, possibly start tapering down.

 

[Jekyl Anhydride]

I don't think you're going to find an exact chart because Kratom is a bit of a prodrug, Mitragynine is the main constituent, which some of is converted to 7-Hydroxymitragynine, a substance 17 times more potent than morphine. Along with these and other things like Mitragynine pseudoindoxyl which is another very potent constituent.

Though these Mu agonists are Delta antagonists making kratom atypical to put it mildly. There are roughly 22 other substances in kratom that influence things from stimulation, neuroprotection, apoptosis in some cancer cells, blood pressure influence, immune activity.. a whole myriad of effects, mostly beneficial.

So very simply put, kratom is like WD'ing from Tramadol. There's more than just the opioid effect to shake. I would plan on tapering as long as possible as the accounts of those who haven't aren't pleasant. These are somewhat uncharted waters since everyone reacts a little bit differently and is using different strains. There are taper and WD guides on BL that def might help.

I would just plan on tapering steeply until you feel uncomfortable, then leveling off and work on trying to find a balance & speed you can continue dropping at.

 

[xivixive]

thanks, makes sense.

when the kratom magic is gone, is it gone? like is there a ceiling effect? frustrated the other day i got to 70 grams, but never felt high and was left with that 'opiate hangover' type feeling of lethargy, muscle weakness, headache, etc...

 

[Jack123456]

Hm, dunno, it does seem to react a bit varied in different people?
I've been using Kratom daily for about two years and never had to up dosage due to tolerance (I've actually gone down, once about a third of daily dosage and am now at less than half of my 1 1/2 year daily dose and still feel pronounced effects, both reductions in a short time span, the first from one day to another, the second in about two weeks but with the biggest part again just by cutting a relatively big amount instantly)

Btw, I did 25-30 a night at the beginning, then went down to 15-20 and am at 7g now (I only ever consumed in the evening/at night, but then in multiple doses in short succession).

 

[negrogesic]

I don't think you're going to find an exact chart because Kratom is a bit of a prodrug, Mitragynine is the main constituent, which some of is converted to 7-Hydroxymitragynine, a substance 17 times more potent than morphine. Along with these and other things like Mitragynine pseudoindoxyl which is another very potent constituent.

Though these Mu agonists are Delta antagonists making kratom atypical to put it mildly. There are roughly 22 other substances in kratom that influence things from stimulation, neuroprotection, apoptosis in some cancer cells, blood pressure influence, immune activity.. a whole myriad of effects, mostly beneficial.

So very simply put, kratom is like WD'ing from Tramadol. There's more than just the opioid effect to shake. I would plan on tapering as long as possible as the accounts of those who haven't aren't pleasant. These are somewhat uncharted waters since everyone reacts a little bit differently and is using different strains. There are taper and WD guides on BL that def might help.

I would just plan on tapering steeply until you feel uncomfortable, then leveling off and work on trying to find a balance & speed you can continue dropping at.

Mitragynine isnt a prodrug for 7-hydroxymitragynine but rather a constituent of m. speciosa (in varying amounts).

You could do a crude calculation of its equivalence to morphine based on the notion that mitragynine is 1/3 the potency of morphine and 7-hydroxymitragynine is 17x the potency, assuming you know the percentage of each in your sample (data which some vendors now make available). Its a tricky thing however with these compounds being partial agonists.

I have a sample of kratom that is labeled as containing 1.3% mitragynine and .05% 7-hydroxymitragynine. Thus, 4 grams would contain 52mg of mitragynine and 2mg of 7-hydroxymitragynine. Given their relative equivalencies, this equates to about 50mg of morphine.

That said, 4 grams of that kratom doesn't feel like 50mg of morphine (id say it feels more like 25mg), but they are qualitatively so different.

 

[Jekyl Anhydride]

Mitragynine isnt a prodrug for 7-hydroxymitragynine but rather a constituent of m. speciosa (in varying amounts).

7-Hydroxymitragynine Is an Active Metabolite of Mitragynine and a Key Mediator of Its Analgesic Effects.

7-Hydroxymitragynine Is an Active Metabolite of Mitragynine and a Key Mediator of Its Analgesic Effects. - PubMed - NCBI

We find that mitragynine is converted in vitro in human liver preparations to the much more potent mu-opioid receptor agonist 7-hydroxymitragynine and that this conversion is mediated by cytochrome P450 3A isoforms. Further, we show that 7-hydroxymitragynine is formed from mitragynine and that brain concentrations of this metabolite are sufficient to explain most or all of the opioid-receptor-mediated analgesic activity of mitragynine.

 

[negrogesic]

7-Hydroxymitragynine Is an Active Metabolite of Mitragynine and a Key Mediator of Its Analgesic Effects.

7-Hydroxymitragynine Is an Active Metabolite of Mitragynine and a Key Mediator of Its Analgesic Effects. - PubMed - NCBI

We find that mitragynine is converted in vitro in human liver preparations to the much more potent mu-opioid receptor agonist 7-hydroxymitragynine and that this conversion is mediated by cytochrome P450 3A isoforms. Further, we show that 7-hydroxymitragynine is formed from mitragynine and that brain concentrations of this metabolite are sufficient to explain most or all of the opioid-receptor-mediated analgesic activity of mitragynine.


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This is very interesting as i always assumed hydroxylation of mitragynine would be minor and not result in an active amount of 7-hydroxymitragynine (ie, that mitragynine was itself is active). Still, various strains contain levels of 7-hydroxymitragynine ranging from n.d. to perhaps .15% (which might seem insignificant, but considering its potency and the volume consumed, 7-hydroxymitragynine content in the plant would strongly mediate it effects, at least of the various strains, particularly considering the enzymatic dependency of hydroxylation). Yet apparently, accordingly to the article you shared, 7-hydroxymitragynine mediates all of its opioidergic properties, which i didnt know

 

[Dr. Extract]

7-Hydroxymitragynine Is an Active Metabolite of Mitragynine and a Key Mediator of Its Analgesic Effects. 7-Hydroxymitragynine Is an Active Metabolite of Mitragynine and a Key Mediator of Its Analgesic Effects. - PubMed - NCBI
We find that mitragynine is converted in vitro in human liver preparations to the much more potent mu-opioid receptor agonist 7-hydroxymitragynine and that this conversion is mediated by cytochrome P450 3A isoforms. Further, we show that 7-hydroxymitragynine is formed from mitragynine and that brain concentrations of this metabolite are sufficient to explain most or all of the opioid-receptor-mediated analgesic activity of mitragynine.

This explains why tramadol-like dosing(staggered small doses) results in a stronger, less side effect ridden "high" than large single doses.

 

[axe battler]

Yeah this is a difficult question to answer due to varying quantities of alkaloids in different strains and batches.
You should find your favourite strain (which I imagine you've done well before now) and just stick to that.
If you're going to taper, its better to do it from the same batch. This isnt possible if youre gonna do it over months or years though.
I wouldn't worry about morphine equivalents to see "how much trouble you're in" as it's unlikely to be helpful really.
Just work on slowly reducing the amount if kratom powder you consume.
Only you can decide on your ideal pace, but its probably best to aim to make the dosage drops small enough to not notice, and gradually over time, you will have made massive cuts with no discomfort.
It's very important if you're going to quit that you need to stop taking occasional recreational doses, and not to confuse feeling anxious or lethargic with withdrawal symptoms. These are natural feelings you're (we're) going to have to get used to if you're going to successfully quit.
This depends on you, of course. If you want off asap then a more rapid taper is always an option.
I have some kratom experience but have used in years as I'm on methadone now.
I'm stable, and when ready, i intended to taper very slowly, perhaps very soon.
Filling the void kratom currently is is the most important thing of all.
Good luck!

 

[murx12]

Hey there are a lot of factors influencing kratom withdrawal. one ver important factor is the alpha2 antagonism which leads to increased noradrenaline release and increases withdrawal symptons ( thats why alpha2 agonists like clonidine are used to manage opioid wd) . the alkaloid responsible for this appears to have a longer half life than the active opioids so theres a time span just after the opioid effect subsides with increased felt wd symptoms. this can be changed with either benzos, clonidine or any other antiadrenergic drug. another important factor is the kind of kratom you consume theres very strong but short acting kratom without any stem and vein content which can cause very hard wd symptons. then theres longer acting more sedating and weaker kratom with stem and vein content which will cause less extreme wd symptoms and is also much better suited for tapering down. you can also use pure stem and vein kratom but its also rather short acting for some reason and also has stronger adrenergic action.