maybe she's there to allow herself to appear highly approachable, and easily engaged?
alasdair
I suppose that could certainly be true, but its not foremost an environment for socializing. Could also just be my local culture, but Im pretty familiar with all of the fitness facilities within a 2 mile radius of where I live, and they all have the same vibe - every person is: "Im in the zone, leave me alone". You can feel it with posture, eye contact (or lack thereof), so on and so forth. Plus, in my local culture, women are accosted with attention from men like every single moment of their lives. If i ever felt a very "welcoming" vibe from someone in that environment, Id probably move closer yes, but that wont happen. It makes it more difficult when all the men wear their insecurities on their sleeve, and everyone is walking around pretending to be popeye on a bad day. The energy in the atmosphere is just not conducive to conjuring some seemingly benign conversation.
Thats what bars, dancefloors, live music, etc are for. Its an environment where people expect to be approached. Perhaps its a personal thing, but I dont feel comfortable approaching women in an environment where thats not everyone's primary goal because I know Im just one of a thousand flies buzzing around her head. There is also a surplus of people to approach in a social-first sort of environment around here. Wish it was different, but thats the way it is.
So, you (presumably) want them to approach you, but you don't feel it's correct it approach them. Seems like a pretty arbitrary double standard you've made up there...
I fail to see how its a standard at all, let alone a "double" standard. I wouldnt say i "want" to be approached in that environment either. I never stated any desire on my part. I certainly dont make it any sort of goal or put a whole lot of energy into it (appearing "approachable"). Maybe its a local culture, but as I said, most dudes in gyms where Im from give off the "I am (wish I was) motherfucking Rambo, Ill eat you if you cross my path" which hardly helps women feel comfortable. Most men just end up looking ridiculous actually. I more or less put it all out of mind, and just act like I would anywhere else. I dont necessarily have the words to express these ideas, If only I had the time to record, edit, and document video evidence of what I mean.
Its not a sexual environment to me, its not a social environment to me, and its def neither to women as well. Its not the polar opposite, and everyone isnt an Ice Lord and Ice Lady, its just a really dumb place to try and interact with the underlying motif of sexual attraction. Perhaps its all relative to local environment, but the hottest man in the world would have a very, very hard time hitting on any woman at all in a gym around here (though its really entertaining to watch them try).
Again, im there to work out, not to mingle. IF someone decided to talk to me, id be pretty surprised and impressed, thats all. I hardly put any energy into caring about it
in that environment because there is a surplus of people desiring to be approached in more appropriate environments.
that's exactly what I was thinking. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense - it could even be construed as misogynistic in fact. I kinda get it though - but it's the same for most situations, the guys wait for the green light (eye contact, preening, other positive body language) before making a move. Otherwise we'd be setting ourselves up for failure, unless we worked out that gal was shy.
I think youre looking for an opportunity to judge and feel superior somehow, because I cant comprehend how you can ascertain that notion from a statement like "I dont contribute to the aggressive energy in the atmosphere, I do contribute to an energy that lacks hostility." I dont think you understand what misogyny is, if you would label my statement as such. It cant be construed as misogyny. Im not "waiting for a green light," Im not spending all of my time concerned with myself and my childish needs in such a way that I have a pathological obsession with finding the right moment to interrupt a woman's navigation through one of the most complex environments in human history. Hell, they have nightclubs purely for the purpose of fucking some random stranger around here. Time and place - Im one of the few men that respect a woman's space and force myself to see her as "some other human being" rather than "a potential source of gratification."
No seriously, I really don't understand why it's a big fucking deal. As I said, I must get (obnoxiously) hit at least 3 times a day/night when I'm on duty in uniform. Never once have I actually felt the need to resort to physical force to deter them, not even on the occasions where I've been touched/groped and even kissed. I did not feel threatened, I did not feel objectified, I just calmly stepped back and was like "ma'am, please stop" Nor have any of my colleagues ever employed force or felt genuinely upset or threatened from such incidents. So seriously, I have no idea why it's such an issue.
Gotta say,
3 times a day, Im pretty jealous. Though, again, men have made women extremely,
extremely defensive in my local culture.
I dont think you understand the power dynamic between men and women in this world. I dont think you understand the biological history of that power dynamic over the course of the last 2-3 hundred thousand years, and the genetic memories it has built into us. Its not really wrong to have "no idea why its such an issue" - so long as youre pursuing the genuine goal of comprehending why. It is wrong to scoff it off because you enjoy your position of power (and Im certainly not accusing you of doing so!). Its never the same, in the year 2013, when its the other way around.
DISCLAIMER: I DO NOT BELIEVE IN EQUALITY. ;-) Though I do believe in balance. 3+4 = 7 is not the same thing as 49/7 = 7. The statements are not equal, though their results are balanced.
I do agree on one point, Im not fond of a woman who chooses to declare power over me and touches me without first introducing herself (unless it is an environment where people are doing a lot more touching than talking). I also have worked security jobs, and bodyguard jobs, and the last thing I can really stand is any civilian that thinks its an opportunity for entertainment. Though, I understand its not the same thing - the power dynamic makes it impossible for it to be the same for a woman to be forward with uninvited sexual advances towards a man, than the other way around. I also wouldnt react with anything more than stone cold stare, and a polite "please move back, youre preventing me from doing my job, thank you." I think a woman is completely within her right to put me in a submission grapple if I were to do the same to her, without a warning.
I think this thread transcends the idea of a "gym" and could be better suited for "seemingly inappropriate environments." Also people's cultural perspectives are going to be very different. I live in a world where people fear interacting with each other (Im not one of those people). I know what a culture is like where everyone looks out for one another as well. Its so hard to convey these ideas over text with all of these different environmental perspectives at play. Im sure there are places in America and the rest of the world where people have all kinds of cheery, honkey dorey, bubbly bits of small talk with the opposite sex in seemingly benign places like a street corner, post office, or aerobics class. Not here. Honestly, a man hitting on a woman in the subway at night is almost offensive (or ignorant in that permissibly naive way). So just saying Im not surprised half of the men's responses in this thread, and some of the women's make no sense at all to me. I am not surprised I dont make sense to otherse.
Take a look at the cultural effects of women trying to reclaim some independence and power in India right now. Man's almost universal reaction of extreme violence makes sense because of these same exact mentalities - theyre only concerned with themselves, and not humanity at large. Theyre concerned with turning every environment into one where they have all the power and have the opportunity to demand what they want.
Its not that different in the USA - our media just doesnt cover it well. A woman is violently raped every 9 seconds in the USA, and thats just what is reported. Women are gang raped, minors are gang raped, and murdered, daily, in the USA. Just consider the statistics for women being raped during military service (again, just what is reported), in the "land of the free" while fighting for "freedom." If you dont understand this global, historical, power dynamic, then you wont understand why you shouldnt see every moment of your day as an opportunity to offer sexual advances towards a woman.
I say this as someone who has worked in a rape crisis center before. Ive worked in protective services for women in transition. Perhaps this has given me an unfair and extreme bias, but good god, men need severe healing.
Ladies are well within their right to not want an advance from a man at any time. Its not a double standard.
