I suppose that could certainly be true, but its not foremost an environment for socializing. Could also just be my local culture, but Im pretty familiar with all of the fitness facilities within a 2 mile radius of where I live, and they all have the same vibe - every person is: "Im in the zone, leave me alone". You can feel it with posture, eye contact (or lack thereof), so on and so forth. Plus, in my local culture, women are accosted with attention from men like every single moment of their lives. If i ever felt a very "welcoming" vibe from someone in that environment, Id probably move closer yes, but that wont happen. It makes it more difficult when all the men wear their insecurities on their sleeve, and everyone is walking around pretending to be popeye on a bad day. The energy in the atmosphere is just not conducive to conjuring some seemingly benign conversation.
Thats what bars, dancefloors, live music, etc are for. Its an environment where people expect to be approached. Perhaps its a personal thing, but I dont feel comfortable approaching women in an environment where thats not everyone's primary goal because I know Im just one of a thousand flies buzzing around her head. There is also a surplus of people to approach in a social-first sort of environment around here. Wish it was different, but thats the way it is.
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I fail to see how its a standard at all, let alone a "double" standard. I wouldnt say i "want" to be approached in that environment either. I never stated any desire on my part. I certainly dont make it any sort of goal or put a whole lot of energy into it (appearing "approachable"). Maybe its a local culture, but as I said, most dudes in gyms where Im from give off the "I am (wish I was) motherfucking Rambo, Ill eat you if you cross my path" which hardly helps women feel comfortable. Most men just end up looking ridiculous actually. I more or less put it all out of mind, and just act like I would anywhere else. I dont necessarily have the words to express these ideas, If only I had the time to record, edit, and document video evidence of what I mean.
Its not a sexual environment to me, its not a social environment to me, and its def neither to women as well. Its not the polar opposite, and everyone isnt an Ice Lord and Ice Lady, its just a really dumb place to try and interact with the underlying motif of sexual attraction. Perhaps its all relative to local environment, but the hottest man in the world would have a very, very hard time hitting on any woman at all in a gym around here (though its really entertaining to watch them try).
Again, im there to work out, not to mingle. IF someone decided to talk to me, id be pretty surprised and impressed, thats all. I hardly put any energy into caring about it in that environment because there is a surplus of people desiring to be approached in more appropriate environments.
I think youre looking for an opportunity to judge and feel superior somehow, because I cant comprehend how you can ascertain that notion from a statement like "I dont contribute to the aggressive energy in the atmosphere, I do contribute to an energy that lacks hostility." I dont think you understand what misogyny is, if you would label my statement as such. It cant be construed as misogyny. Im not "waiting for a green light," Im not spending all of my time concerned with myself and my childish needs in such a way that I have a pathological obsession with finding the right moment to interrupt a woman's navigation through one of the most complex environments in human history. Hell, they have nightclubs purely for the purpose of fucking some random stranger around here. Time and place - Im one of the few men that respect a woman's space and force myself to see her as "some other human being" rather than "a potential source of gratification."
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Gotta say, 3 times a day, Im pretty jealous. Though, again, men have made women extremely, extremely defensive in my local culture.
I dont think you understand the power dynamic between men and women in this world. I dont think you understand the biological history of that power dynamic over the course of the last 2-3 hundred thousand years, and the genetic memories it has built into us. Its not really wrong to have "no idea why its such an issue" - so long as youre pursuing the genuine goal of comprehending why. It is wrong to scoff it off because you enjoy your position of power (and Im certainly not accusing you of doing so!). Its never the same, in the year 2013, when its the other way around.
DISCLAIMER: I DO NOT BELIEVE IN EQUALITY. ;-) Though I do believe in balance. 3+4 = 7 is not the same thing as 49/7 = 7. The statements are not equal, though their results are balanced.
I do agree on one point, Im not fond of a woman who chooses to declare power over me and touches me without first introducing herself (unless it is an environment where people are doing a lot more touching than talking). I also have worked security jobs, and bodyguard jobs, and the last thing I can really stand is any civilian that thinks its an opportunity for entertainment. Though, I understand its not the same thing - the power dynamic makes it impossible for it to be the same for a woman to be forward with uninvited sexual advances towards a man, than the other way around. I also wouldnt react with anything more than stone cold stare, and a polite "please move back, youre preventing me from doing my job, thank you." I think a woman is completely within her right to put me in a submission grapple if I were to do the same to her, without a warning.
I think this thread transcends the idea of a "gym" and could be better suited for "seemingly inappropriate environments." Also people's cultural perspectives are going to be very different. I live in a world where people fear interacting with each other (Im not one of those people). I know what a culture is like where everyone looks out for one another as well. Its so hard to convey these ideas over text with all of these different environmental perspectives at play. Im sure there are places in America and the rest of the world where people have all kinds of cheery, honkey dorey, bubbly bits of small talk with the opposite sex in seemingly benign places like a street corner, post office, or aerobics class. Not here. Honestly, a man hitting on a woman in the subway at night is almost offensive (or ignorant in that permissibly naive way). So just saying Im not surprised half of the men's responses in this thread, and some of the women's make no sense at all to me. I am not surprised I dont make sense to otherse.
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Take a look at the cultural effects of women trying to reclaim some independence and power in India right now. Man's almost universal reaction of extreme violence makes sense because of these same exact mentalities - theyre only concerned with themselves, and not humanity at large. Theyre concerned with turning every environment into one where they have all the power and have the opportunity to demand what they want.
Its not that different in the USA - our media just doesnt cover it well. A woman is violently raped every 9 seconds in the USA, and thats just what is reported. Women are gang raped, minors are gang raped, and murdered, daily, in the USA. Just consider the statistics for women being raped during military service (again, just what is reported), in the "land of the free" while fighting for "freedom." If you dont understand this global, historical, power dynamic, then you wont understand why you shouldnt see every moment of your day as an opportunity to offer sexual advances towards a woman.
I say this as someone who has worked in a rape crisis center before. Ive worked in protective services for women in transition. Perhaps this has given me an unfair and extreme bias, but good god, men need severe healing.
Ladies are well within their right to not want an advance from a man at any time. Its not a double standard.
I think my word "waiting" was poorly chosen, but that's the thing - nah man I'm not lookin to be superior at all, never are.
Purely wanted to understand what you meant, hence why I said it COULD be construed that way. ALso bro I'm totally comfortable with not needing to double check my definitions - did it only a few months back, so it is very clear in my mind still,
Very interesting read, and I understand where you're coming from.
THat was my point - that on the one hand the gym could be seen as a place where you go to focus, just like a dojo, yoga class or meditation retreat.
However, anytime you put yourself amongst other people, you are opening yourself up to socialization unless you display otherwise.
Just because you see pretty much nowhere except where (live) music is played, doesn't mean that's the norm or the truth, in fact actually I find it rather a strange concept - this world is our oyster, as long as we're not just looking to use each other, and actually want to share realness and love with one another, then anywhere is somewhere to socialize, even if it's not primarily so.
Yoga class - post class, before class.
Martial arts - before or after.
The gym - before or after, during shouldn't be bad or frowned upon - it's much looser -
Why should we feel awkward for wanting to get to know an attractive woman, nay person, that we met in PUBLIC - it doesn't matter where, as long as our approach isn't rude, then there should be no problems with just saying "HI" or "sorry, not here to socialize".
I get what you mean about making sexual advances - but the thread or discussion isn't really purely about sex is it? It's about opposite gender relationships.
To be honest, "culture" shouldn't be allowed to come into it - the idea of different cultures being excuses for different levels of honest decent human behaviour is just insane. As long as we're interested in socializing with someone, not trying to just root them, then there's no problem with talking to someone anywhere, right place and right time (not when someone is concentrating - breather minutes in between should be seen as fair game to say hello to anyone, anywhere, anytime).
I'm sorry to hear that about where you live man. I know how it can be, where you are is probably really thickly concentrated past anything I've been around for more than a day myself.
It's quite admirable that your gym environment is like that in a way - very focussed, but it's also a shame as you're putting yourself out there in public, and then cold shouldering anyone who maybe just wants to talk.
Your whole post surprised me, but hey the world surprises me sometimes even now - I thought there was nothing that could surprise me, I was totally wrong!
