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Is decrim/legalisation a double-edged sword?

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Losthippy!

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Apr 25, 2020
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Guday from Oz. My inquiry is aimed at folk in places that have decriminalised or legalised cannabis. I’ve read a few posts about employees being drug-tested and having to make the choice between working or consuming what the law allows them to. What’s up with that? And how does LE deal with drivers found with THC in their system? If they still get after it then that seems like a back-handed bitchslap for exercising a legal right.

Here in Oz we’re still not treated like grown-ups and penalties for possession, cultivation or testing positive for THC absolutely ruin lives and future prospects. Absolutely. Even certain CBD products are nigh-on impossible to access here due to the red-tape, misinformation and prevailing Jurassic mindset we live with.

Answers here are appreciated and might help inform Aussies about the pitfalls awaiting our own meagre efforts at emerging from under the rock. Cheers.
 
I can only speak for Canada. Where I used to work, there was no policy regarding drug use (there was no testing for drugs just like there was no testing for alcohol) other than ‘don’t use it at work or come in to work high or let it impair your work’; essentially the same policy that existed for alcohol. However, as soon as I got my medical card, I disclosed to Human Resources and my union and stated that I would not be using at work or coming into work high. That, I think, is reasonable. My workplace actually had some degree of accommodation for legitimate medical cannabis use.

There are safety sensitive positions where drug use may be conducted but it’s generally constrained/limited by labor agreements. Of course, working in a lower paid job/non unionized position means less protection.

As for driving, in Canada we have a per se DUID law where if you have plasma THC levels at or exceeding 5 ng/ml you are guilty of drugged driving. It’s widely expected to go to our Supreme Court on the grounds of being discriminatory to patients. There are only 2 Health Canada approved devices for field testing for THC in drivers One is called the Draeger 5000(?) and I can’t recall the other one. Both are also expected to result in Supreme Court challenges because of a lack of reliability in cold weather.

But legalization in Canada has pretty much worked how I hoped; prices have steadily fallen since day 1 (the lowest prices now are about 1/4 of what they were 2 years ago), the black market prices have fallen, I can get same day delivery of online ordered products, I can fly anywhere within Canada with up to an ounce and I can legally mail up to an ounce to anyone else in Canada (so relatives with cheaper or better weed in another province can legally send it to you).

I’m very thankful for all of the foreign investment which allowed Canadian companies to build stupidly large 400,000+ sq ft greenhouses leading to vast surpluses of product driving down prices.

But yeah, that’s how legalization sits in Canada as of December 3rd, 2020. Overall it ain’t bad. The drugged driving laws don’t apply to me nor do workplace considerations since I took medical retirement 3 years ago. I can/do consume cannabis without any repercussions. Gave away my car and cancelled my license.

Tom

edit: Canadian legalization is like a rusty pocket knife where most of the blades don’t open. The one that does is a gleaming, bright, shiny boxcutter. And in the realm of ’fuck me’ I just found legal cannabis advent calendars.
 
Thanks for the reply, Tom. Having mates in Canada and travelling around a couple of years ago I was stoked with how chill the vibe was. No mayhem on the streets and roads like the nay-sayers warn of over here. Same thing with the Netherlands and Switzerland which I found seemed so normal. Oz still bundles cannabis and 'hard' drugs into the same basket with the media faithfully pushing the same line and a gullible public too indoctrinated to know the difference, or frankly give a damn. There is little political appetite for change and few advocates for cannabis consumers to hang their hopes on affecting sensible discussion on the topic. Gone are the halcyon days of the Australian Marijuana Party and our fun-lovin' larrikin attitude to the weed.

We have had highly organised random roadside alcohol/drug testing on our roads for forever and workplace testing is fairly common, especially in mining and heavy industry. Nobody in their right mind argues with the obvious need for operators to be unimpaired, but there is no magic number to measure impairment with here. Just having a trace amount of any prescribed illegal substance in your system is enough to get yourself in the kind of strife that threatens every facet of your existence. You're guilty of breaking the law just to get drugs in the first place, so down you go. In the meantime the black economy is booming with insatiable consumer demand keeping prices high despite all the anti-drugs bullshit being shoved down our throats. All the revenue possibilities from properly regulated cannabis production and supply seem lost on lawmakers. Power-tripping 101. Cheers again.
 
Egzoset said:
Perhaps you'll want to represent Québec as well, or even Manitoba.
Click to expand...

‘Well I did work at the Unjversity of Manitoba for 27 yrs....

I’m interested specifically in the laws of Quebec and Manitoba with respect to how they both manage to demonize Cannabis, but in different ways. In Quebec, vapes are banned (still?), edibles are capped at 5mg per package and there is a limit on how much cannabis one can store at home. In Manitoba we have an added 6% social responsibility tax, no areas to consume cannabis outside of one’s home and, like Quebec we disallow cultivation. The Conservatives in Manitoba never wanted legalization and when it became obvious that it was going to happen - asked for a one year delay.

Are there any more restrictions that Quebec has?

Tom
 
It's hard to believe Australia is still so backwards on this.

I mean ffs, how did America become more progressive about Marijuana laws than Australia.

In 90% of other drug laws Australia is far better. Australia has better harm reduction laws regarding needle access, cautions, etc. But when it comes to Marijuana they're still so backwards.
 
Decriminalization without legalization is kind of a joke, imo. Sure, you get caught with a gram you'll get a $100 fine. Get caught with two grams in two different bags? That's packaged for sales, buddy, enjoy your possession with intent charge.

Then you've got people like me who don't sell a fucking thing but like to purchase their tree in bulk. If I ever get pulled over on that ride back home..... fuck, man, I don't even want to think about it.
 
Egzoset said:
We disconnect right there.

You! You! You! ... Me! Me! Me!
Click to expand...
??
Me did work at the University of Manitoba. Pretty sure ‘we’ didn’t. The argument on Cannabis will alway be framed around You!/Me!’s. And it is an ongoing argument, of necessity descending into the personal.

Tom
 
Losthippy! said:
Guday from Oz. My inquiry is aimed at folk in places that have decriminalised or legalised cannabis. I’ve read a few posts about employees being drug-tested and having to make the choice between working or consuming what the law allows them to. What’s up with that? And how does LE deal with drivers found with THC in their system? If they still get after it then that seems like a back-handed bitchslap for exercising a legal right.

Here in Oz we’re still not treated like grown-ups and penalties for possession, cultivation or testing positive for THC absolutely ruin lives and future prospects. Absolutely. Even certain CBD products are nigh-on impossible to access here due to the red-tape, misinformation and prevailing Jurassic mindset we live with.

Answers here are appreciated and might help inform Aussies about the pitfalls awaiting our own meagre efforts at emerging from under the rock. Cheers.
Click to expand...
Yeah I can totally relate. I live in a state in the Midwest USA, that criminalizes pot. Hopefully a city in Australia decriminalizes weed, so at least you won’t have to travel across the world just to puff legally.

we are close in the states to decriminalize, democrats just need to take back the senate and it’s very likely
 
here’s a benefit of legalization; one forward/progressive store/producer in my city has started having some phenomenal sales. All stores are privately run but have to buy their product from a provincial distributor. There are shit tons of returns from retailer > provincial distributors > producers for destruction; and this company has taken to buying the returned weed and selling it at huge discounts.

I just picked up 4 eighth’s at 33% of the original retail sale price. Sensi Star, and it reeks of lemon/pine/fuel. Not dry despite having been packaged in April of this year. This is what national legalization anywhere might offer, depending on taxes, laws, etc.....cheap weed.

Tom

@DoctorMolecule I think Kamala Harris was in favour of ‘an executive action on day 1 to decriminalize’. Yeah that was when she was running for President, but you have to believe (I do) that she will have some influence on Biden. And with Arizona, Montana, New Jersey and South Dakota all going legal rec the momentum is towards legalization/freedom of the herb.
 
The way I see it, it just gives us options. The black market always exists. You can always grow your own.

I notice that 99% of legal bud is not done with a full nitrogen flush or true cure. Lots of green plants finishing to be put in with boba packs for 2 weeks. Tastes bad and terrible for your lungs, but otherwise it's consistently super strong and dense
 
We've an insatiable appetite for Cannabis in Oz and supply is not really an issue anymore. There was a time when we imported tons of Asian bud and hash from all over, but domestically grown bud is pretty much everywhere now. Consumers continue consuming, mostly feeding the black economy or increasingly, if able, growing their own. The risks are many and well known, but that's what we do.

Every so often there's a ripple in the swamp and some politician gains traction talking-up drug reform which gets people excited but never leads to meaningful change because of the concessions that would have to be cut. Legislators have too much invested in the war on drugs to be seen to roll over or soften their stance. The penalties Federally and across the States and Territories for testing positive to Cannabis are anathema to any sensible discussion about its recreational use, and the old guard acknowledge that with a sly smile. We're failing at a grassroots level because the disincentives stick out like dog's balls and there aren't many pollies willing to lean into the issue. So how did you get the ball rolling in your territory?
 
Trying to reel it in, by the sound of that article. At least the product is already legal there, isn't it? There can be some to-ing and fro-ing between vested parties over the matter and that's how it works, doesn't it? Sometime next year the Aust. Govt. will ban the importation or sale of nicotine vape juice which will only be available otherwise if prescribed by a doctor. The Heath Minister is pushing this one, as well as dragging his heals on worth of CBD's and other Cannabis products. The bulk of what we vape (containing nicotine) atm is imported, and provided you don't go silly with big quantities getting it through seems fairly straight forward. People have been switching from cigarettes to vaping in a big way and self-regulating pretty well up till recently. But the esteemed Minister sees vaping in its various forms as a danger to public health, therefore, we can't have it. Another case of having to play the long game.
 
I still can’t find gov issued cannabis on a potency par with BM supplies. They don‘t leech or cure like the ”home” growers (at least what I’ve tried). It’s a rushed, bottom-line driven product.
But these are steps in a potentially good direction.
Growing our own, for those who can, is the best part of the laws (but expand to 10 plants, eh!).
 
Losthippy! said:
...places that have decriminalised or legalised cannabis.
Click to expand...

Around here it's "légaleezation", as i like to label it. Because cultural & linguistic barriers were exploited to divide and confuse populations for less-than-noble purposes, pretending to "save" this country's children...

And of course this is only the begining of a long series of legitimate critics yet to be heard from credible politicians in our canuck Ottawa parliament, then the provinicial ones... M'well at least USA congressmen Steve Cohen (Tennessee) and Earl Blumenauer (Oregon) already proved long long ago it's politically viable to accept and even understand how wrong it really is to vilify "marihuana" (...) for electoralist (e.g. so-called "elite") purposes.

Losthippy! said:
Here in Oz we’re still not treated like grown-ups...
Click to expand...

Same here, and the 1st hint of my province being sacrificed goes straight back to the Task Force report of August 24th, 2016. As i recall:

HC_-_Task_Force_2016-_Dec-13_640x220.png
H.-C. - Task Force report (2016-Dec-13)​

As a matter of fact lets also insist about this other key event which took place halfway between its publication and August 24th:

Joint Conference: ISAM and CSAM-SMCA XXVII Annual Meeting and Scientific Conference – Montreal​

That's a major cornerstone practically absent on the radar of mass media it seemed, some false-echo initiated in Calgary/Alberta by "ADDICTIONnists" of Halloween, though actually intended to take place in Montréal at hotel Marriott for some odd reason that eludes me...

Kevin_Sabet_at_secret_Int_l_Montr_al_congress_on_addiction_2016.png
​
SRC: Légalisation de la marijuana : des experts américains mettent en garde le Canada (2016-Oct-26)​

In any case i believe such grotesque failure of reporters as Tamy-Emma Pépin and Azeb Wolde-Giorghis to correctly inform Québekers of the real situation should have seemed most peculiar at best, yet it felt like there was no public response or it was gone mute all the sudden! While this is no trivial detail neither to consider that the "Re-Hab" therapist Jean-Pierre Chiasson (some 40 years carreer based on "ADDICTION"...) wasn't just an ordinary senior CSAM member as he was also on their "standards" commitee...

It was only years too late when a few rare diverging and still very timid opinions started to emerge, long after Trudeau's Halloween "science" show ended, for example:
​
SRC - Cannabis: les psychiatres exagèrent, selon un spécialiste (2017-Oct-5)​
...​
Jean-_S_bastien_Fallu_TLMEP_2018-_Mar-11_480x270.png

IMHO with shy alies like that we certainly need no enemies! 🙄

The very same J.-S. Fallu was briefly seen on TV tonight, commenting of the SQdC declared an "Essential" service mass media is all too prompt to ridicule while promoting alcohol as if there's no tomorrow - which may be why he claimed it's a complicated problem i think, euh... But what's escaping our humble cognitive comprehension still observing "legal" violence (in presence of deadly arms...) and/or theft on the account of civil asset forfeiture!! ... Go figure how many more anonymous/collective TV punches i miss as a result of my guilty zapping habit!... Which makes me fear soon they may force Québec's "stoner$"/"droÿé$" to wear electrocution watches, so we can get remotely coerced to watch SAQ publicity followed by Nez Rouge invitations to consume until we can't walk (...); i mean anything the bigot prohibitionists do shall seem so unreal lately!! Crazy blood-sucker craving zombies might just as well invade our streets anytime now, call the red-serge mounties, i'm in panick!!

Euh... 🧐

Meanwhile zero echo of children kidnappings, coerced "re-hab" (with scientology-inspired "treatment" for people who didn't ask to be "saved"), the few hints of flat threaths of retro-active eviction procedures by manipulative landlords are obscured by displacing public attention elsewhere, etc., etc.

So, if aussies are intelligent enough they must completely cut the evil power feed by removing cannabis from any "schedule", hence only emulating USA's current re-alignment which doesn't even require much talent from any politician, unless dealing with a province where some minority feels legit to rule as an intolerant predatory majority.

...

Good day, have fun!! ☮️
 
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Decades ago, the South Australian Govt. scheduled small amounts (less than 1 oz) and minor cultivation as misdemeanors. They set the number of plants individuals could grow at 6 (I think). Problem was that states surrounding SA kept it illegal, so when a bunch of people shared a rental property all growing the permissible amount, they produced surplus to personal requirements and the overburden moved interstate for sale at BM prices. This didn't amuse hardline authorities in those states and it didn't take long before SA fell back into prohibition in-line with everyone else.
 
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...

Artificial tensions only serve obscure objectives and the recent developments ain't reassuring:

Bill 75 - "An Act to improve justice accessibility and efficiency, in particular to address consequences of the COVID-19 pandemic"​
​
« The bill allows the allotment of the proceeds of the sale of property seized in connection with an offence under the Cannabis Act between certain government departments, bodies and organizations. »​

This might as well announce further coordination if not plain data cross-collection between ministers...

What's also very odd is how mass media persists in confusing issues, like to juxtapose "black lives matter" and "aboriginal rights" when in fact there a systemic problem of authority abuse never being identified as such, always avoiding to make comparisons with the anonymous/collective "legal" persecution of cannabis users even shamed by public-paid TV adds; SQdC's "essential" status currently feeding the appetite of angry love-haters/hate-lovers on top of boosting propaganda.

Meanwhile crucial Canada-wide "jurisprudence" may happen to be on its way, for example:
​
Armes et stupéfiants: importante opération policière dans le fief des «Bloods» (2020-Dec-9)​

There's actually a report in preparation, for later divulgation, when the timing is right (e.g. February i predict!):

L’emploi de la force durant les opérations policières au cœur des plaidoiries (2020-Dec-2)​
​
Le juge rendra au début du mois de février son verdict qui n’aura vraisemblablement pas seulement un impact pour M. Gilbert, mais aussi sur l’utilisation de la force lors des opérations policières partout au Québec et au Canada.​

My translation: this iconic cause could as well redefine the concept of "justified force" everywhere in our miserable country, so watch out for prohibitionist rebounds!

🚔 🚓 🚁 🚑 ...
 
TVA news for Québeker "stoner$"/"droÿé$" on Christmass day; N.B. the female speaker never seemed to even mention it actually, just the horizontally-scrolling text which read as follows in never-ending loops:

Les consommateurs de pot minimisent les risques (2020-Dec-25)​
​
« National - Une bonne partie des amateurs de cannabis ne conçoivent pas que la consommation de marijuana puisse devenir un problème, laisse entendre une nouvelle étude... »​
 
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