Input regarding tramadol to kratom?

[Direwolf131]

I have a conundrum, I treat for chronic pain with tramadol, and I have every single day since 2014, 6 x 50 = 300 mg daily, no exceptions, thus I am obviously dependent upon the tramadol. While that is not a huge dose compared with many, I have once before stopped for three days and experienced cessation syndrome. What I would like to do is replace the tramadol completely with kratom, and I would like to do so the next morning after last tramadol dose night before 12 + hours removed!

I have two concerns, one is the kratom thought an effective replacement for tramadol based upon their very similar mechanisms of action, can it easily interchange with such based upon folks direct experience doing so, and two, should I wait to take the kratom so as not to precipitate withdrawl from the stronger atypical opioid? I do not want to cause a crisis in making the jump, on paper these two substances appear strongly similar, with the primary concern being establishing a dose with the kratom. Has anyone gone to kratom directly following long term daily use of a full agonist?

Thanks folks, I am very concerned about screwing this up on my own.....

 

[Jabberwocky]

Kratom won't cause precipitated withdrawals. It's antagonist effect is negligible.

Depending on the quality of your kratom (this matters a lot) and the dose you take it could be a smooth transition.

 

[Direwolf131]

Kratom won't cause precipitated withdrawals. It's antagonist effect is negligible.

Depending on the quality of your kratom (this matters a lot) and the dose you take it could be a smooth transition.

Thanks mate, I have a red vein from a reliable vendor, my biggest fear has been precipitating wd, even though both tramadol and kratom are considered partial agonists, though with tramadol its main metabolite is OmTramadol which is a strong mu binder! At any rate I have never attempted this before, but on paper when you look at the known pharmacology they seem to be extremely similar in their actions...

 

[Direwolf131]

Kratom won't cause precipitated withdrawals. It's antagonist effect is negligible.

Depending on the quality of your kratom (this matters a lot) and the dose you take it could be a smooth transition.

Would 2.5 - 3.0 grams(5-7 capsules)roughly correspond to 50 mg of tramadol? I would like to start at 2.5 grams and see how it works, thanks for your reply....

 

[Jabberwocky]

Yes, that is a vaguely accurate conversion.

50mg tramadol = 5mg morphine = 3.5mg oxycodone = 50mg mitragynine

Depending on quality 1g of kratom has 0.8%-2.0% mitragynine. 3g of decent quality would have around 45mg which would be roughly equivalent to 50mg tramadol.

Kratom alkaloids and pharmacology are a lot more complicated than that, but it's a decent conversion to therapeutic doses of opioids.

 

[Direwolf131]

Yes, that is a vaguely accurate conversion.

50mg tramadol = 5mg morphine = 3.5mg oxycodone = 50mg mitragynine

Depending on quality 1g of kratom has 0.8%-2.0% mitragynine. 3g of decent quality would have around 45mg which would be roughly equivalent to 50mg tramadol.

Kratom alkaloids and pharmacology are a lot more complicated than that, but it's a decent conversion to therapeutic doses of opioids.

Thank you very much, I have zero experience with kratom, and my hope resides in the fact that 50 mg x 6 daily is not a whole lot of tramadol, though I am unquestionably dependent upon it, nonetheless its nothing like the vicodin (7.5) they originally had me on 7 years back.

 

[deficiT]

DC -----> BDD

 

[Direwolf131]

Took last tramadol this afternoon at 1 pm, two total for day (100 mg) and at 8 pm I intend to pop six Red Maeng Da capsules and work way up if needed to 8! I would like to replace tramadol altogether if I can, but I really only need do this till Thursday when my prescription renews. I must say, the last week I winnowed down to just 5 x 50 mg a day for a total of 250 mg, nonetheless I am really feeling it hit me. I have no idea how you guys can possibly imbibe more than 300 mg in an hour, several times a day, I would be absolutely planted if I did so....

Hope this works, it will be a great relief if it does....

 

[Jabberwocky]

Just a tip, kratom can be stimulating and prevent sleep for a few hours. Particularly meang da, even in red, can be on the stimulating side. I generally can't sleep for 3 hours after dosing, so I never really dose past 6pm.

You may want to get a strain specifically for night time. Bali, red thai, red horn and red borneo would be good options. These can be taken at night and probably won't keep you awake.

Good luck.

 

[Direwolf131]

Just a tip, kratom can be stimulating and prevent sleep for a few hours. Particularly meang da, even in red, can be on the stimulating side. I generally can't sleep for 3 hours after dosing, so I never really dose past 6pm.

You may want to get a strain specifically for night time. Bali, red thai, red horn and red borneo would be good options. These can be taken at night and probably won't keep you awake.

Good luck.

Thanks again for all of your advice, I intend to assess every 30 minutes and if all is well, dose the same 3 x daily!

 

[Direwolf131]

I would add that I took the kratom at 7:45 and by ten past 8 I am feeling it, absolutely amazing, I should be in cessation syndrome, I was in cessation syndrome six hours after last tram and it is amazing, all gone, I feel great, three grams (6 caps) really hit good!

 

[Direwolf131]

I am a believer, this came from a smoke shop in Mlps owned by a family from Laos, they swore up and down this stuff was awesome, just amazing, and OTC.... So I have been on tramadol daily with a few short exceptions since 2014, never really abused it as such, but could feel it in charge nonetheless, I would never have believed an ancient folk medicine would prove its boss, but it sure as hell feels like it. And that is the thing, you KNOW when its working, very very pleased with this stuff!

 

[Skorpio]

I would worry about going into SSRI withdrawal switching to kratom, as tramadol is a rather efficacious SNRI.

If it's for a short time, low dose DXM plus kratom could cover both the mu opioid and SSRI effects. I wouldn't dose DXM long-term, as it may have deleterious cognitive effects

Edit: if you aren't feeling bad, just keep it simple, no need to add more drugs if you are fine with just kratom.

 

[Direwolf131]

I would worry about going into SSRI withdrawal switching to kratom, as tramadol is a rather efficacious SNRI.

If it's for a short time, low dose DXM plus kratom could cover both the mu opioid and SSRI effects. I wouldn't dose DXM long-term, as it may have deleterious cognitive effects

Edit: if you aren't feeling bad, just keep it simple, no need to add more drugs if you are fine with just kratom.

I just haven't taken a boatload of tramadol, never exceeded 300 mg daily. but I was still clearly in wd after 6 hours removed from last dose, but here's the thing, I am treating with difulcan for a fungal infection and that crap greatly inhibited my liver from processing the tramadol these last 7-days, so I was already in a sort of weird wd syndrome all week, with a constant headache and mild chills, so in a way the kratom was actually perfectly timed.

 

[Direwolf131]

Some observations, for me, a daily tramadol consumer of 300 total mg in 6 x 50 doses (5 x 50 = 250 the last week) the sweet spot with the kratom is clearly 3.5 grams (7 caps), I am still in wd as my low back pain demonstrates, but my head is not, I feel mildly euphoric over about four hours and I have no problem with the opioid detox. The one time I elevated the dose to 5-grams 10 caps I did not experience the same positive outcome. Indeed lost was the mild ssri effect and I was left feeling like shit. Then at next dosing I stuck to the 3.5 gram formula and for 3-4 hours I felt much better!

I think the kratom's ssri effects are proving more beneficial to me than any opiate like metabolite!

 

[Direwolf131]

After using ktatom for two days to intervene in daily tramadol consumption I have a few conclusions to offer up to prosperity, specifically anyone who like self, is a chronic pain pt not so much using tramadol recreationally, but long term to treat pain. In 2013 I had a "radical cystectomy" for aggressive stage 3 bladder cancer and I have been on tramadol ever since. Prior to that I was scripted I think it was 120 vicoprofen tablets monthly, which as I recall were 7.5 mgs of hydrocodone carried with ibuprofen. At any rate, the kratom worked better than I thought it could,.

I slept both nights and there was no RLS whatsoever sans a mild intermittent tickling in calves. Initially I took 3,5 grams which was effective, but in hindsight more than necessary, I believe 2-2.5 grams would have been ample, and would have resulted in far less nausea, which was considerable with the kratom. one major drawback to kratom use in people such as myself is its counter-indication with zofran for nausea, which really just sucked, indeed kratom has a very long list of substances which should be avoided, and some of those substances would prove quite beneficial consumed alongside kratom.

For short term usage, as a 2-3 day bridge between filled scripts, kratom is very helpful, but it comes at a cost of significant nausea, and somewhat unpredictable performance. Ultimately I found 2.5 grams (5 caps) a good analog for 50 mg of tramadol. Nonetheless I would not ever wish to take kratom longer than 2-3 days as its effects begin to accumulate, especially the taste which is gagging, and contributes to the nausea all on its own, but understand, the kratom itself in digestion imparts significant GI issues which can be quite uncomfortable...

 

[QueenzJeannz]

I would add that I took the kratom at 7:45 and by ten past 8 I am feeling it, absolutely amazing, I should be in cessation syndrome, I was in cessation syndrome six hours after last tram and it is amazing, all gone, I feel great, three grams (6 caps) really hit good!

Thus is SO weird, but you and I walk a parallel. Two 50mg Tram at 8am, 2pm, 8pm...for the past seventeen years. Been through Tram w/d more than a couple of times during doctor/prescriber changes, and I kid you not: I wanted to-- let's just say I felt like that redhead weasely kid in Harry Potter who said he felt like he'd never be cheerful again when the Dementor demon thing was sucking his soul out. It's that bad. But I had to switch doctors again when I moved across the country, all serious pain killers have been demonized so blackmarket is out (too "iffy"), and I knew it was going to be the worst ever because of a series of traumas that piggybacked over my life the past few years.
I am no quitter, but I have to be honest: the other option was...an option. Too much rapid-fire damage, no healing time (yet), and I didn't think I could do the w/d again and survive it this time.
Then someone I barely know, when she saw my scrip bottle, said she used Tram since 2002 but was on Kratom now.
She told me it was affordable, available--as in THREE MILES FROM MY HOME--and in stock. AND...no scrip needed.
I was numb. Disbelieving. And I started to read every thing I could get my hands on.
And I bought a little bottle just to have. Just in case.
Then came the crash, the search for a new doc, the wait for the first appointment--and I ran out. Completely. I split my last pills in half, like that would do shit.
I laid down to sleep, so heavy in my mind I thought I was going to cry, and when I woke up at 8 for my Tram, realizing it wasn't there, I found my Kratom bottle (red maeng da) and took four. I also took four ibuprofen (my dragon is predominantly Sciatica) and laid back down and burrowed because I knew in a few hours the last of the Tram would leech away my sanity as the pain gnawed through what was left in my system.
An hour later...I sat up, wincing, waiting for the pain and the w/d demons to turn my 24 day into countless hours of desperately wanting to make myself vanish...and it didn't happen.
It took awhile to realize that fucking stuff was doing something for me that I really, really needed just then, and for once I just shut up and let it come.
Let it happen.
My Tram dependency is alive and well, but now this other thing has my full (though cautious) attention. It will be six weeks before I get my MRIs, new doctor, etc...but I'm ordering more Kratom this afternoon. I've been using it for two weeks, it's always messy testing and adjusting types, brands, doses...but I'm sticking with it because I can't believe...I still have a (raucous and socially unacceptable) sense of humor, I haven't offended or alienated or terrified the people I love, and this social/information platform still exists after all these years.
Oh, wait--I lie.
I do have a regret.
I am SO sorry about the length of my post to you.
Yours is the first thread I opened to, and I still can't believe the similarities of our situations. Weird as hell.
And you have my deepest regards, friend, and best wishes wherever your choices take you.
(For reference: the Super Speciosa red maeng da is what I like best; 4 didn't make me sleepy, killed my anxiety with a much-needed touch of euphoria, and I dose every 4 to 6 hours as I need. Green maeng da has proven milder, mellow energy. Just so ya know).
Peace.

 

[deficiT]

Thus is SO weird, but you and I walk a parallel. Two 50mg Tram at 8am, 2pm, 8pm...for the past seventeen years. Been through Tram w/d more than a couple of times during doctor/prescriber changes, and I kid you not: I wanted to-- let's just say I felt like that redhead weasely kid in Harry Potter who said he felt like he'd never be cheerful again when the Dementor demon thing was sucking his soul out. It's that bad. But I had to switch doctors again when I moved across the country, all serious pain killers have been demonized so blackmarket is out (too "iffy"), and I knew it was going to be the worst ever because of a series of traumas that piggybacked over my life the past few years.
I am no quitter, but I have to be honest: the other option was...an option. Too much rapid-fire damage, no healing time (yet), and I didn't think I could do the w/d again and survive it this time.
Then someone I barely know, when she saw my scrip bottle, said she used Tram since 2002 but was on Kratom now.
She told me it was affordable, available--as in THREE MILES FROM MY HOME--and in stock. AND...no scrip needed.
I was numb. Disbelieving. And I started to read every thing I could get my hands on.
And I bought a little bottle just to have. Just in case.
Then came the crash, the search for a new doc, the wait for the first appointment--and I ran out. Completely. I split my last pills in half, like that would do shit.
I laid down to sleep, so heavy in my mind I thought I was going to cry, and when I woke up at 8 for my Tram, realizing it wasn't there, I found my Kratom bottle (red maeng da) and took four. I also took four ibuprofen (my dragon is predominantly Sciatica) and laid back down and burrowed because I knew in a few hours the last of the Tram would leech away my sanity as the pain gnawed through what was left in my system.
An hour later...I sat up, wincing, waiting for the pain and the w/d demons to turn my 24 day into countless hours of desperately wanting to make myself vanish...and it didn't happen.
It took awhile to realize that fucking stuff was doing something for me that I really, really needed just then, and for once I just shut up and let it come.
Let it happen.
My Tram dependency is alive and well, but now this other thing has my full (though cautious) attention. It will be six weeks before I get my MRIs, new doctor, etc...but I'm ordering more Kratom this afternoon. I've been using it for two weeks, it's always messy testing and adjusting types, brands, doses...but I'm sticking with it because I can't believe...I still have a (raucous and socially unacceptable) sense of humor, I haven't offended or alienated or terrified the people I love, and this social/information platform still exists after all these years.
Oh, wait--I lie.
I do have a regret.
I am SO sorry about the length of my post to you.
Yours is the first thread I opened to, and I still can't believe the similarities of our situations. Weird as hell.
And you have my deepest regards, friend, and best wishes wherever your choices take you.
(For reference: the Super Speciosa red maeng da is what I like best; 4 didn't make me sleepy, killed my anxiety with a much-needed touch of euphoria, and I dose every 4 to 6 hours as I need. Green maeng da has proven milder, mellow energy. Just so ya know).
Peace.

Be careful with the kratom because it can be a pretty potent opioid, and cause dependence and it works in your brain in a lot of different ways.

I had been taking the stuff pretty much daily, and if not that, then some other opiate, for 10 years. I was taking like crazy amounts 10gs at a time. And it totally got me all fucked up and constipated, I thought I was having a hernia, and went to the ER and I was so backed up.

But at least kratom is fibrous, unlike Suboxone which at 16mg a day led me to have bloody bms for weeks.

Opioid dependence sucks and I'm so glad I'm done with it at the moment.