Important: What should be in the Codeine FAQ?

[bobbydarren]

Thanks for the reply. After the 60mg dxm + 300mg codeine. I"ve tried a number of different variations, but staying on 30mg dxm, and trying different amounts of codeine.

For me, the sensation feels like a different drug, & NOT more codeine. It also puzzles me how the tell tail side effects of large amounts of codeine (pin point pupils, reduction in pain) seems to not occur when I take dxm first. It's like something else is produced from the codeine, instead of morphine, or maybe as well as morphine.

For me less morphine seems to enter blood, so I don't know how it can be called Potentiation , it's as if the dxm and codeine form some new chemical which isn't so much an analgesic but it's certainly strong.

When I took the 60mg DXM plus 300mg codeine, I was so affected that I was thinking I might be about to die, and had the phone in my hand rehearsing dialing emergency thinking I was about to die. Symptoms, confusion, difficulty walking, sensation that my lungs were about to stop working.

But having had high amounts of morphine and heroin I just know it did not feel like a near opiate overdose, but maybe OD'ing on whatever drug is made by combining dxm & codeine.

Anyway if anyone agrees it might be interraction rather than potentiation occuring OR if you think it really it potentiation then maybe you have a comment.

 

[puckboy]

^
Maybe you're sensitive to DXM, or the codeine isn't being potentiated by the DXM but rather the codeine is potentiating the DXM? Have you tried it on its own for recreational purposes? I've only ever tried DXM once out of curiosity. Drank 600mg, ended up spewing alot a few hours later and all in all it was a strange experience. Confusion and difficulty walking are common side effects of DXM, in recreational doses, your movements become like a robot. It's a pretty shit dissociative drug imo, not nearly as enjoyable as ketamine or nitrous oxide imo/e.

As far as its interaction with codeine, I have no experience with combining the two.

 

[TheOtherButcher]

Thanks for the reply. After the 60mg dxm + 300mg codeine. I"ve tried a number of different variations, but staying on 30mg dxm, and trying different amounts of codeine.

For me, the sensation feels like a different drug, & NOT more codeine. It also puzzles me how the tell tail side effects of large amounts of codeine (pin point pupils, reduction in pain) seems to not occur when I take dxm first. It's like something else is produced from the codeine, instead of morphine, or maybe as well as morphine.

For me less morphine seems to enter blood, so I don't know how it can be called Potentiation , it's as if the dxm and codeine form some new chemical which isn't so much an analgesic but it's certainly strong.

When I took the 60mg DXM plus 300mg codeine, I was so affected that I was thinking I might be about to die, and had the phone in my hand rehearsing dialing emergency thinking I was about to die. Symptoms, confusion, difficulty walking, sensation that my lungs were about to stop working.

But having had high amounts of morphine and heroin I just know it did not feel like a near opiate overdose, but maybe OD'ing on whatever drug is made by combining dxm & codeine.

Anyway if anyone agrees it might be interraction rather than potentiation occuring OR if you think it really it potentiation then maybe you have a comment.

im having that side effects now lol its frightning as hell but ive heard that codeine makes you paranoid. im a pretty new codeine abuser but i think im going to stick to weed after this expirience

 

[Sustanon]

ok I want to argue with someone on the merits of DXM plus CODEINE. Show me evidence that DXM POTENTIATES codeine. Show me research & credible references that it POTENTIATES codeine.

I tried it based on what people have said here, and what people say all over the net. 2 things I kept track off,
1: Was pain reduced
2: Did my pupils constrict

On a dose of 300mg codeine, I expect to no longer feel cold when it's around 17-18c & i'm just wearing a tshirt and shorts, & my pupils constrict.

On a dose of 300mg codeine + 60mg dxm (DXM taken 45mins before codeine) I get a very strange strong feeling. One that I don't find particularly pleasurable, & is a little frightening. I think it feels more like DXM. Blood pressure sky rockets, hands feel a little numb. I still feel cold, my pupils DON'T constrict. The effects arent' the soft warm pleasurable opiate feel, it's something else.

The question I have is DOES DXM POTENTIATE codeine, or does it cause a side effect, that although strong, isn't potentiation of codeine, it's a side effect of taking large amounts codeine while dxm is in the system. Is this combination potentially dangerous. I had wondered if it's serotonin syndrome, & people are actually getting off on that, not realising the danger.

I use 200mg DXM combined with 600mg Codeine and a few bars and yes it does potentiate the codeine alot. I dont need nearly as much codeine when mixed with it. It also helps reduce tolerance to some certain extent. Not sure the chemistry behind it all but it def works. I really dont think that serotonin has much to do with either anyway. The effects u described obviously the DXM overrode the effects of the codeine. It can be a beautiful combination if exercised with caution. Thats my DOC anyway.

 

[Mr Blonde]

Sounds like you might be sensitive to DXM.

Sustanon as for the tolerance thing, it probably has to do with NMDA receptor antagonism preventing or (more likely) slowing receptor down regulation. Via synaptic plasticity? Haven't researched NMDA in a while.

Bobby Darren, do you use codeine much? What sort of effects do you get off it? I'm just wondering if some CYP2D6 enzyme problems might come into play here.

 

[phase_dancer]

This Thread is going where the others have. Keep posts on topic or it too will be closed. "DXM and codeine" is probably a worthwhile topic if discussion is kept to discussing pros and cons, so if needed this could be split off this thread.

Anyway, what's happening with the FAQ? It seems every time it gets mentioned, those who initially announced they were keen to contribute all seem to go A-WOL. How about someone putting up what's been done so far for others to comment on? Or has the ink faded?

 

[TripppAR]

I say delete it..


There are whispers of complete prescription only on codeine products.

Total stazi style control grid being put into place.

 

[drug_mentor]

I have been pretty absent the last few months busy with schoolwork and the like, I am not sure exactly where the codeine FAQ is at now, I haven't spoke to anyone else involved about it for some time.

As far as the information goes I don't think it is lacking too much. I don't know if the most recent copy I recieved a few months ago is the most up to date or not, but if I could get the most recent copy and an idea exactly what information you feel needs added to it then I would be more than happy to help out.

As far as the referencing goes though, I am not prepared to spend hours referencing like this is some University assignment. I understand why some people may feel this is a neccessary part of compiling a codeine FAQ but that is not what I was putting my hand up for when I initially volunteered.

TripppAR do you have anything to substantiate your claims that codeine may be made prescription only soon? I really hope this isn't the case, particularly since I have taken the last few months off of opiates in the hopes I will be able to fully enjoy codeine again.

I have a hard time believing they would make all codeine containing products prescription only, I think a more realistic worry is that they will make all of them fully soluble in water like some of the products currently on the market. I don't think the general public would accept one of the only legit OTC pain relief options being taken away on the basis that a select few were eating too many and having stomach problems.

 

[Mr Blonde]

I say delete it..


There are whispers of complete prescription only on codeine products.

Total stazi style control grid being put into place.

There are whispers but I think it will be harder to put into place then the pseudo program was. Pseudoephedrine was an OK decongestant but was too associated in people's minds with methamphetamine manufacture. Codeine is a part of pain products that people all across the country use on a very regular basis. Even when the new restrictions were put in place there was annoyance at it from families, even some pharmacists who are high up in the food chain.

That said, I was told by a pharmacist that by the time I or a friend of mine get their Bachelor, codeine may be Rx only or there may be tighter controls on it's use/tighter monitoring. But then again, the PseudoWatch program isn't even fully operational I've heard and it still takes a while for them to catch you doctor shopping...

This Thread is going where the others have. Keep posts on topic or it too will be closed. "DXM and codeine" is probably a worthwhile topic if discussion is kept to discussing pros and cons, so if needed this could be split off this thread.

Anyway, what's happening with the FAQ? It seems every time it gets mentioned, those who initially announced they were keen to contribute all seem to go A-WOL. How about someone putting up what's been done so far for others to comment on? Or has the ink faded?

Yeah sorry about that... when I get back to Australia I'll go back over it. I wish I got paid to do research, ha ha.

 

[MrIbis]

I have been pretty absent the last few months busy with schoolwork and the like, I am not sure exactly where the codeine FAQ is at now, I haven't spoke to anyone else involved about it for some time.

As far as the information goes I don't think it is lacking too much. I don't know if the most recent copy I recieved a few months ago is the most up to date or not, but if I could get the most recent copy and an idea exactly what information you feel needs added to it then I would be more than happy to help out.

As far as the referencing goes though, I am not prepared to spend hours referencing like this is some University assignment. I understand why some people may feel this is a neccessary part of compiling a codeine FAQ but that is not what I was putting my hand up for when I initially volunteered.

TripppAR do you have anything to substantiate your claims that codeine may be made prescription only soon? I really hope this isn't the case, particularly since I have taken the last few months off of opiates in the hopes I will be able to fully enjoy codeine again.

I have a hard time believing they would make all codeine containing products prescription only, I think a more realistic worry is that they will make all of them fully soluble in water like some of the products currently on the market. I don't think the general public would accept one of the only legit OTC pain relief options being taken away on the basis that a select few were eating too many and having stomach problems.

Yeah dude, we all put a lot of work into this FAQ, but university style referencing on what i'd call basic information, and a collection of personal anecdotes not what i put my hand up for either. All of the information that is directly taken from somewhere else is given credit (erowid methods for CWE) or it's noted that the information is personal knowledge or procedure.

Anyone with any idea about codeine im sure would back up the claims made within even without the scientific referencing.

 

[puckboy]

^
What parts of the FAQ need so much referencing? I imagine most of the questions in a codeine FAQ would be straight-foward, basic questions? Not Advanced Drug Discussion stuff... or no?

 

[Jabberwocky]

we're looking at putting up a "work in progress" thread for this FAQ. the referencing just helps back up anything within the FAQ, so people aren't double guessing and all that and can't necessarily refute "claims". it's also for the fact that those of you who've put in have the best codeine faq available out there as we set out to do

we're in discussion on whether to put it up soon or finish off the referencing. we've all been quite tied up with real life. i will be putting time into referencing during this weekend and next week.

 

[phase_dancer]

Yeah dude, we all put a lot of work into this FAQ, but university style referencing on what i'd call basic information, and a collection of personal anecdotes not what i put my hand up for either. All of the information that is directly taken from somewhere else is given credit (erowid methods for CWE) or it's noted that the information is personal knowledge or procedure.

Firstly, if the intent is to produce the best codeine faq on the net, which was announced by the original authors, then you need to reference, no two ways about it. Anything worth a pinch of salt is referenced. To not do so simply implies laziness and/or doubt about what is being written. Referencing is a piece of piss and should be the easiest part of of any good paper.

FFS, copy and paste from the paper/abstract, rearrange to a standard method. It doesn't get much easier than that

That's not to say you can't mention something widely reported that seems out of line with what has been previously published, just so long as the science - the rationale behind the established view - is mentioned/referenced within the discussion.

As for anecdotals - aside from the example above, why would these need to be included, apart from perhaps someone wanting to blow their own horn? This is a collective work, and as a faq, if it's to have credibility, the writers should be neutral in the way they're presenting, so only well written accounts of others should be included (and referenced!). So, if anecdotes are used, they should be written as reviews of other peoples reports, rather than written from personal accounts. A single person reporting something no-one else has ever reported generally shouldn't be included, unless taking about possible rare reactions (allergies etc).

In short, the subjective aspects should be kept to a minimum.

Self appraisal through one's own stories lowers the tone of any paper/ faq which is to deal with processes and science, whether it's a literature review, a research report or a credible fact based faq. If such an approach to this faq is adopted, it would produce something that is little different from many of the past threads on the topic. For now, I'll refrain from expanding on this description.

Anyone with any idea about codeine im sure would back up the claims made within even without the scientific referencing.

Does that mean you're not writing this as an faq to target those most in need who have little or no knowledge of codeine? Because in that statement you indicate you're aiming for those who are already using it, but like to read about stuff they already know? 8)

As for what's been done so far being considered a lot of work; I think I put more into the bloody draft review than others put into their respective parts tbh, and I aren't even an author .

Locating references as you go along is the way to go when preparing this sort of thing, and it's always worth finding several for each point mentioned.

Is it so hard to read a few papers and assemble the appropriate material that supports, or otherwise, an argument?

And fwiw, there were points on the draft that were inaccurate and/or poorly explained imo, and certainly stuff included that was broadly and/or inadequately mentioned. Not good science, so when writing something, get the references as you progress, as it can also help with wording and phrasing. It's not uncommon to collect hundreds of refs but only use a few. At least that way you know you're presenting a solid argument.

As I mentioned, I'll do the referencing if no-one else has got the time or inclination, but if I do it, any "claim of fact" that I can't find a reference for will be excluded. The choice is yours!

when I get back to Australia I'll go back over it.

Thanks Mr Blonde, looks as though your trip has been going well.

I wish I got paid to do research, ha ha.

Be careful what you wish for

But do the hard yards of study and achieve a good GPA, and I'm sure you'll receive all the job offers you could hope for. Just realise that few researchers get rich, and depending on what discipline is followed, there maybe lots of instances where everything else in life has to be sacrificed for the sake of the research.

 

[Mr Blonde]

^ Cheers. :D

I was keeping a bibliography as I was going along, I've still got it... I'm jet lagged but when I recover I'll start throwing in in-line references and cleaning up the tone of the FAQ, I think everyone has P_D's comments on the document.

 

[Jabberwocky]

booyah!

 

[drug_mentor]

Firstly PD, i want to say no disrespect, you are arguably the most knowledgable poster in AusDD and I certainly appreciate your many contributions to bluelight over the years.

However on post 12 in this thread you openly state that the closing of codeine discussion was your idea. The need for a codeine FAQ has arisen due to your decision to disallow or atleast limit codeine discussion.

Despite the fact it was you who determined the need for a codeine FAQ and a lack of codeine discussion it was others who put their hand up to contribute to the newly required FAQ.

As for what's been done so far being considered a lot of work; I think I put more into the bloody draft review than others put into their respective parts tbh, and I aren't even an author .

Locating references as you go along is the way to go when preparing this sort of thing, and it's always worth finding several for each point mentioned.

This I take issue with, I do not discredit the work you put into your annotations of the codeine FAQ, or the time, but much of what was contributed by the initial authors was based on a great deal of research and experience, which you almost seem to disregard by suggesting you did more work.

As for references, I do not disagree with the notion that references make a document more credible, however there are many threads in the FAQ section which contain little to no references.

Here is a well written FAQ written by a well respected AusDD member, BigTrancer. He references his work but not in the Harvard style as I was taught it at TAFE, and as you requested. I mean NO disrespect to BT and I both think he is a top quality poster and the FAQ comprised by him which I linked is comprehensive. I simply use it to illustrate my point.

As I stated earlier PD, I have a lot of respect for you, but I can't help but feel a little astounded by the fact that you determined the need for a codeine FAQ as opposed to codeine discussion then were not particularly keen to initially contribute and now attempt to criticize those who initially contriuted due to the work not meeting a standard that the majority of FAQs in the relevant forum do not meet. It just seems like your making the whole thing more difficult than it needs to be and then bitching at others because they don't necessarily feel it has to meet the same standard you do.

 

[mindtools]

Anyone tried amounts like 300mg with similiar dose of DXM?

 

[drug_mentor]

This isn;t really the appropriate thread for that question, I will say where 300mg of codeine and 3300mg DXM should be rather easily manageable dose to someone with experience I do not feel it is the best idea.

IMO/IME DXM best potentiates opioids somewhere between 30-90mg, depending on tolerace, anymore than that is just going to make the DXM overpower the codeine, and the majority of drug users would consider the codeine buzz preferable.

If you have used 300mg of codeine before with no problems then perhaps I would suggest increasing the dose of codeine slightly, or possibly adding a sedating antihistamine (eg. restavit - doxylamine succinate 25mg tablets. I really that think unless you spent your adolescence constantly guzzling Robo DX, matching the DXM dose with codeine, mg for mg, is a sure way to end up VERY nauseas and quite likely in a bad mindstate without the motor function or common sense to be able to help yourself.

I was a big advocate of using DXM to potentiate opioids, particularly codeine, however I do feel that some of the doses people are listing are more like codeine adding a teensy bit of sedation to a robo trip instead of a lil DXM potentiating the codeine.

Lots of people like no DXM with their opiates at all, because they like a so called 'clean' high. Frankly I would never say that sensible predosing of DXM (generally 60mg or so) has had a particularly adverse effect on my buzz whatsoever but only helped to intensify my feelings of pleasure. I imagine when DXM doses start exceeding much beyond 100mg you are going to be in for an experience at least as dissociative as opiate like.

I would like to point out, I do think DXM used in conjunction can contribute to lucid dreaming when you have no to little tolerance as it really adds to that aspect of the nod. I will warn any inexperienced folks, decent doses of DXM+travalcam on top of a fat codeine dose are a one way ticket to weird dream city, and I have known people to find some of these experiences unnerving.

There are a wide variety of substances that can add to the codeine experience but one must be very familiar with codeine before attempting poly drug use. Furthermore, when trying a new potentiator it should be the ONLY potentiator being used so as to minimise risk of interaction, as a precaution you might want to also lower your codeine dose slightly to account for any potentiation the new compound may cause.

It concerns me to read of peoples mg dose of DXM reaching or exceeding that of their codeine dose, seems more like a cheap OTC buzz to me than a real nod. Honestly if your tolerance is past the point a ceiling dose wont get you half way to a nod without every potentiator under the sun, its either time for a break (the smart option) or to find some stronger opiates.

 

[mindtools]

You don't need to CWE codeine. I mean, use hot water. As amapola pointed, it doesn't break down when using hot water (>50C). Pour boiling water to mug, than from mug to crushed pills. Now I feel higher than on CWE'ed on room temperature water

 

[belarki]

^ you're missing the point sorry mindtools. Using hot water will cause more paracetamol to dissolve without really causing much more codeine to dissolve. Somewhat defeats the purpose of doing an extraction....