I'm uncertain if psychedelics would improve my life or not. Advice?

[spacejunk]

Chronic use and death is of course possible. Magic mushrooms contribute to psychotic disorders, which means a lower life expectancy, and so they contribute to deaths.

Provide some evidence of this claim please?

If you were talking about alcohol, that would be fair - it's hepatoxic, has many documented deaths from acute toxicity and known to cause a number of cancers.

 

[jason7]

jason that sounds pretty intense, around what dose was that do you remember?

and shimmer yeah that sounds nuts... I always say anyone who tries using psychedelics to escape is in for a pretty rude awakening. Also, that kind of reinforces my choice to almost always trip alone. It always seems that other people are what make a trip bad/annoying/not pleasurable.

I don't recall the dose but I don't think it could have been real high, I think it was like 3 grams. I would have remembered if I ate much more than that because it would have been a lot of mushroom eating. I remember I wanted a good solid dose though so probably about 3, may have been up to 5 though. I know I wouldn't have taken more than that. More than that probably wouldn't cause significantly stronger effects anyway. I think there's a maximum effect and any more than that can't really increase it. That would have been at least 30 mg of psilocybin, which is pretty much the maximum dose you ever see in books and articles. Liberty Caps are pretty potent. Let's just say I had a high dose of psilocybin.

Some phases of the trip weren't that severe. For about half an hour at one stage I felt really stoned and groggy rather than like a psych trip. As I said, there were several phases, each quite different from the others, lasting various amounts of time. The kundalini part wasn't all that bad. I guess it was kind of pleasurable, just weird feeling energy coursing up my spine. The worst parts were the stage where a bunch of forgotten stuff came back to my conscious mind, though that wasn't really bad either, again just weird feeling. It was probably something akin to the "life review" part of a near death experience, where you recall your entire life in a few seconds. I was conscious of a whole bunch of things I had experienced but had forgotten, like all memories were suddenly available to me even ones that I had never been conscious of before, like the dreams.

But the worst part was the final phase where I felt like I had gone quite mad. Nothing made sense. Voices on a radio were distorted and the DJs would say weird stuff that I know they couldn't have really said. Anything written was incomprehensible. There was no logical train of thought possible. I was aware that I was feeling insane though. I was thinking, wow, this is what insanity feels like. Fortunately that phase didn't last very long, probably 15 minutes to a half hour, and then the trip ended. But yeah, feeling insane isn't much fun. It was quite frightening. Oddly, I don't recall a lot of visuals. There were some in the early stages but nothing memorable. As I recall they were mainly alien and UFO themed. It was more a series of mental states than visions though.

I find that at lower doses it's more visual and at higher doses it's more weird states of consciousness, sensing of presences and energy flow. Aside from the final insanity/confusion phase it wasn't that unpleasant really, though certainly odd feeling. I wasn't actually frightened until the final phases. I can see how a person could panic in that part of the trip. I was alone by the way. I actually find that I only ever had pleasant shroom trips when I was around other people, ones I was comfortable with. I could feel the love in those times and just had generally pleasant feelings and visuals. By yourself, you have nothing to anchor you to reality and you don't feel any love around you. But of course you wouldn't want to be around strangers or people with negative vibes.

 

[jason7]

Regarding chronic use of mushrooms, i used them daily or bi-daily, something like that, for about a week once and what happens is that you don't really get high, you just have some slight rubbery legs feelings and a general spaced out feeling. It's quite different from the normal effects though. I doubt if anyone would use them that frequently for long. There wasn't really anything fun or enjoyable about it. I just had lots of mushrooms so I kept using them.

 

[whiteroom67]

That doesn't sound right pmose - I can think of two rock stars who died of drinking too much alcohol just off the top of my head. Amy Winehouse and John Bonham. Hendrix too if you count alcohol and sleeping pills.

Deaths from psilocybin are not listed separately in the CDC database and I am sure alcohol being common makes a big difference.

Perhaps - tho when the legal status of mushrooms changed in the UK in 2003 you would've expected a massive increase in deaths as use exploded across the country. As far as I'm aware no-one died.

What does chronic psilocybin use do to a user?

What do you call "chronic use"? Psilocybin stops working if you take it every day and most people don't have 5 or 6 hours every day or the ability to grow enough mushrooms so chronic use is impossible. It also isn't addictive in the same sense that alcohol is.

How long were alcohol and cigarettes widely used and studied before uncovering their chronic toxicity?

Not sure what relevance that has to anything.

^Exactly, yes. Psychotic disorders can contribute to death making but that's making a bit of a stretch statement. Especially since we were talking specifically about toxicity and not psilocybin being hazardous, the difference of which was clarified earlier.

 

[pmoseman]

Yes, we were talking about that. It is a stretch but I think it is common to stretch a bit when talking about alcohol and cigarettes contributing to deaths.

I think it would be an example of a chronic condition, like a liver damage.

....

Provide some evidence of this claim please?

If you were talking about alcohol, that would be fair - it's hepatoxic, has many documented deaths from acute toxicity and known to cause a number of cancers.

Drugs known to trigger psychotic episodes include:

cocaine
amphetamine (speed)
methamphetamine (crystal meth)
mephedrone (MCAT or miaow)
MDMA (ecstasy)
cannabis
LSD (acid)
psilocybins (magic mushrooms)
ketamine

The CAM concluded that the physical and psychological dependence potential of magic mushrooms was low, that acute toxicity was moderate, chronic toxicity low and public health and criminal aspects negligible.

 

[Xorkoth]

Then I went through a phase where I remembered every dream I ever dreamed, all the ones I hadn't consciously remembered before. You know how you can't remember most dreams after you wake up? Well, they're all stored in your memory. You can't normally access those memories but during that part of the trip I could remember all those dreams. It was like oh yeah, I remember that dream now. But the problem is that some of those dreams were pretty weird and then I was conscious of them again.

This was happening to me in flashes when I tripped on 2C-B + 4-HO-MET recently. I was going on intense, visual closed-eye mental journeys while listening to amazing music and at certain points my vision would flash to scenes from dreams that I had never remembered before, and some that I had remembered bits of. It wouldn't last long but during those flashes I would feel and experience a section of that dream again. It was very fascinating and valuable to me. I was also getting intense flashes of childhood memories I hadn't thought of in a LONG time because we were listening to Paul Simon Graceland, which my mom used to play a lot, and which I didn't get at all as a kid. Listening to it again, really listening to it, brought so much back. Amazing album by the way. It trips me out how I could have heard it so many times as a kid and actually rather disliked it.

 

[Piezoid]

Toxicity - take a pure substance and inject a measured dose into a rat, wait for the rat to die. The quantity at which 50% of the rats die is the LD50. Lower the quantity, higher the toxicity.

The therapeutic index is more relevant for comparing toxicity in practical uses. For recreational drugs it's sometimes called 'safety ratio'.

The therapeutic index (also known as therapeutic ratio) is a comparison of the amount of a therapeutic agent that causes the therapeutic effect to the amount that causes death (in animal studies) or toxicity (in human studies).

 

[Ismene]

Saying we should expect massive deaths from mushrooms in the UK is unsupported.

How do you figure? When cigarette smoking in a country increases, death rates from tobacco use increase. From 2003-2005 mushrooms were legalised and use exploded beyond all imagining. If it was a killer you'd expect a big increase in deaths.

Magic mushrooms contribute to psychotic disorders

You'd need evidence for this. Again - when their use exploded in 2003-2005 there was no related increase in psychotic disorders.

We did not always know about cancer.

Well we've known about cancer since around 3000BC.

It is a stretch but I think it is common to stretch a bit when talking about alcohol and cigarettes contributing to deaths.

No that's ludicrous. You can't compare the allegation that someone might go psychotic on mushrooms and then somehow manage to kill themselves with someone choking to death on their own vomit. One is theoretical - the other happens all the time.

Drugs known to trigger psychotic episodes

In who tho. They only trigger psychotic episodes in those vulnerable to psychosis. They don't trigger psychotic episodes in the vast majority of people.

 

[pmoseman]

The therapeutic index is more relevant for comparing toxicity in practical uses. For recreational drugs it's sometimes called 'safety ratio'.

Comparing safety ratios is comparing safety ratios and comparing toxicity is comparing toxicity.

How do you figure? When cigarette smoking in a country increases, death rates from tobacco use increase. From 2003-2005 mushrooms were legalised and use exploded beyond all imagining. If it was a killer you'd expect a big increase in deaths.

Magic mushrooms contribute to psychotic disorders

You'd need evidence for this. Again - when their use exploded in 2003-2005 there was no related increase in psychotic disorders.

We did not always know about cancer.

Well we've known about cancer since around 3000BC.

It is a stretch but I think it is common to stretch a bit when talking about alcohol and cigarettes contributing to deaths.

No that's ludicrous. You can't compare the allegation that someone might go psychotic on mushrooms and then somehow manage to kill themselves with someone choking to death on their own vomit. One is theoretical - the other happens all the time.

Drugs known to trigger psychotic episodes

In who tho. They only trigger psychotic episodes in those vulnerable to psychosis. They don't trigger psychotic episodes in the vast majority of people.

I do not think the use of mushrooms exploded 2003-2005.

They had cancer in 3000 BC. The amount of cancer deaths related to smoking and drinking would have been completely untold, I guess until about 1960. You are aware of the damage being done by cigarettes, so you can say it kills a certain number of people prematurely. With new research now just understanding what part of the brain psilocybin reacts with, to me our knowledge seems rather primitive.

The Teonanacatl PDF

There are some interesting pre-colonial Nahuatl accounts. Seems like there were angry addicts taking psylocibe mushrooms and the intoxication could cause a person to kill themself, although I am not certain in what context. Also, the women who cultivated it were possibly dependent, believing by not nibbling them that the mushroom would make them ill.

If you had evidence to support what you are saying, I would be interested in hearing about it.

 

[Ismene]

Of course use exploded from 2003-2005 - mushrooms were legally available. They went from selling none to selling hundreds of kilograms.

There are some interesting pre-colonial Nahuatl accounts. Seems like there were angry addicts

Use your brain pmose. Those were accounts by the spanish catholic priests who believed taking mushrooms was devil worship and who killed anyone who took them. Do you seriously think they are going to say "They're harmless and everyone had fun"? Jeez.

 

[pmoseman]

Of course use exploded from 2003-2005 - mushrooms were legally available. They went from selling none to selling hundreds of kilograms.

Do you have evidence use increased over a change in legal status, or not.

There are some interesting pre-colonial Nahuatl accounts. Seems like there were angry addicts

Use your brain pmose. Those were accounts by the spanish catholic priests who believed taking mushrooms was devil worship and who killed anyone who took them. Do you seriously think they are going to say "They're harmless and everyone had fun"? Jeez.

Written by Sahagún, a missionary, in the 1550s, these writings represent a large share of all that remains from a precolonial culture that used psylocibe mushrooms for 2000 years. The accounts were produced in the native language, using the Latin alphabet, and are detailed. They include the specific teases exchanged during visions natives had of their future life. This is not Spanish propaganda written for general publication. Nor was it produced by a bunch of Harvard windbags from the '50s who gravely disappointed their traditional counterparts by claiming native settings were harmful and so ignored all indications of adverse effects, which might hinder their research, ie throwing a bunch of parties.

 

[jason7]

This was happening to me in flashes when I tripped on 2C-B + 4-HO-MET recently. I was going on intense, visual closed-eye mental journeys while listening to amazing music and at certain points my vision would flash to scenes from dreams that I had never remembered before, and some that I had remembered bits of. It wouldn't last long but during those flashes I would feel and experience a section of that dream again. It was very fascinating and valuable to me. I was also getting intense flashes of childhood memories I hadn't thought of in a LONG time because we were listening to Paul Simon Graceland, which my mom used to play a lot, and which I didn't get at all as a kid. Listening to it again, really listening to it, brought so much back. Amazing album by the way. It trips me out how I could have heard it so many times as a kid and actually rather disliked it.

It almost makes me think there's some connection between the effects of these tryptamines and the "life review" that people have in the early stages of a near death experience. The difference being that they also feel the emotions of the other people they interacted with at the time. That's never happened to me on drugs, just the memories from my own perspective. It is rather disconcerting to have all those memories suddenly become conscious.

 

[pmoseman]

 

[Ismene]

Do you have evidence use increased over a change in legal status, or not.

You're just being silly now pmose. Mushrooms were being sold on ebay by dozens of vendors in kilo amounts. Yes, use increased. 2004 was called "the second summer of love" in the music papers because mushroom use was so widespread.

The accounts were produced in the native language, using the Latin alphabet, and are detailed.

Written by catholic priests who believed it was devil worship.

This is not Spanish propaganda written for general publication

Come again? You know why catholic priests wrote what they did 500 years ago? You don't think they were influenced by their catholicism?

who gravely disappointed their traditional counterparts by claiming native settings were harmful..

I'm going to have to stop you there pmose. Can you provide any evidence for this or is this another catholic priest you've found?

 

[pmoseman]

Oh yes, the truth is just silly.
Maria Sabina + bunch of tourists = not happy, and she voiced her opinion.

I am looking for maybe like numbers of emergency room visits versus number of people eating quantised mushrooms, or something like that.

....

Unrelated, got my Ashtanga mixed up with Kundalini, haha.... I have no idea what Kundalini is.

 

[Ismene]

It almost makes me think there's some connection between the effects of these tryptamines and the "life review" that people have in the early stages of a near death experience. The difference being that they also feel the emotions of the other people they interacted with at the time. That's never happened to me on drugs, just the memories from my own perspective. It is rather disconcerting to have all those memories suddenly become conscious.

I get the same thing with old memories. I'm not sure the life review is coming from the same place tho - I know there's the theory that DMT is released at death but if that was the case wouldn't you see outrageous psychedelic patterns? And they're never reported by anyone having an NDE. Usually just the dull dark tunnell and a light.

 

[pmoseman]

There is no sign of endogenous DMT in the human brain.

 

[spacejunk]

^Do you have a source for that?


Btw what is actually being discussed here? Another fragmented pmoseman agenda, or the OP?

 

[Ismene]

I suspect it's another deranged pmose agenda.

 

[whiteroom67]

Well to be fair, according to what I've seen, I'm pretty sure the presence of endogenous DMT in the human brain is still mostly theory at this point. I believe even in Strassman's book he states himself that it's not for certain, just a theory and that only that all of the factors that allow the body to manufacture it itself naturally are present (the neurotransmitters, enzymes, etc), but not actual DMT itself. The burden of proof does in fact fall on the person making the claim that there is a presence of something, rather than the lack thereof. However, there was a study in 2013 I believe that did confirm the presence of DMT in the pineal gland of a rat, and also another report that just came out this year regarding biosynthesis of DMT in a human melanoma cell line, though I really don't know much about it. So, at least up until very recently, it has been mostly theory, but there is more and more evidence that seems to be coming out, and I certainly wouldn't be surprised if it was present in the human brain. Like I said maybe that last report does prove that its there but I don't know much about it or what the report actually says or anything.


And yes, I agree with the pmose agenda thing.