If weed isn't a "real" psychedelic how do you explain arabesque/hindu art?

[Doldrugs]

Nightmarish experiences are perfect for forming religions. Religions are full of terror.

 

[max_freakout]

Religions are predominantly based on terrifying, traumatic experiences. For example Christianity originates from the horrific torture and execution of Jesus, Judaism originates from Abraham being commanded by God to kill his own son, Buddha is attacked by demons during his enlightenment etc etc.

 

[Ismene]

Not the religions based on drugs tho - santo daime, mushrooms of mexico, peyote in mesoamerica. Nothing terrifying about those. They worship the drug for the pleasure and happiness it gives them.

Perhaps an indicator is if the religion is based on terror it wasn't based on drugs.

 

[Vurtual]

Is the description of demons in buddha's story an exoteric reading, where an esoteric interpretation could be that the demons represent aspects of the mind/personality that he had to overcome?

In Buddhism, Mara is the demon who assaulted Gautama Buddha beneath the bodhi tree, using violence, sensory pleasure and mockery in an attempt to prevent the Buddha from attaining enlightenment. In Buddhist cosmology, Mara personifies unskillfulness, the "death" of the spiritual life. He is a tempter, distracting humans from practicing the Buddhist dharma through making the mundane seem alluring, or the negative seem positive. Buddhism utilizes the concept of Mara to represent and personify negative qualities found in the human ego and psyche. The stories associated with Mara remind Buddhists that such demonic forces can be tamed by controlling one's mind, cravings and attachments.

Below is another passage about buddhism which illustrates the more usual sense of the word esoteric which i was using - i know some people who have quite deep knowledge of some of the 'esoteric' teacings referred to - no drugs are involved by their accounts; it's just advanced yoga (and maybe some sex magic).

Tantric Buddhism

...The assimilative diversity of popular Mahāyāna did not mark the end of the development of Buddhism in India but rather led almost imperceptibly to a metamorphosis. Beginning recognizably in the sixth and seventh centuries a.d. there took place an upsurge of a vast new repertoire of magical, ritualistic, and erotic symbolism, which formed the basis for what is commonly called Tantric Buddhism. Its distinguishing institutional characteristic was the communication through an intimate master–disciple relationship of doctrines and practices contained in the Buddhist Tantras (esoteric texts) and held to be the Buddha’s most potent teachings, reserved for the initiate alone.

In content, Tantric Buddhism is fused in many areas almost indistinguishably with Mahāyāna doctrines and archaic and magical Hinduism. Cryptic obscurities were deliberately imposed on the texts to make them inscrutable except to the gnostic elite. Vajrayāna had its metaphysical roots in the supposition that the dynamic spiritual and natural powers of the universe are driven by interaction between male and female elements, of which man himself is a microcosm. Its mythological and symbolic base was in a pantheon of paired deities, male and female, whose sacred potency, already latent in the human body, was magically evoked through an actional Yoga of ritualistic meditations, formulas (mantra), and gestures (mudrā) and frequently through sexual intercourse, which occasionally included radical antinomian behavior. The inward vitality of the sacred life force is realized most powerfully in sexual union, because there nonduality is experienced in full psychophysical perfection.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Buddhism.aspx

Tantric buddhism is very diverse, but it seems like it may be sex not drugs that is the go to method in some cases... (or it's further symbolism for kundalini or something (i'm certainly not an expert here))

 

[Doldrugs]

Not the religions based on drugs tho - santo daime, mushrooms of mexico, peyote in mesoamerica. Nothing terrifying about those. They worship the drug for the pleasure and happiness it gives them.

No, they use it medicinally and spiritually. It's not recreational for them. Terror can certainly factor into mescaline and mushroom trips.

Perhaps an indicator is if the religion is based on terror it wasn't based on drugs.

Are you saying psychedelics don't produce terror? Because that's patently absurd.

 

[max_freakout]

They worship the drug for the pleasure and happiness it gives them.

this ^ is nonsense

tripping on mushrooms can be pleasurable, but it can also be harrowing and traumatic, participating in a mushroom ceremony in Mexico or an ayahuasca ceremony in Brazil can be a deeply challenging experience. Psychedelic mysticism is not all about hedonistic recreational enjoyment.

Religious symbolism tends to focus on the harrowing aspect of intense tripping (but not always), and several psychedelic writers have observed that negative experiences can be more significant and transformative than positive experiences.

 

[max_freakout]

Is the description of demons in buddha's story an exoteric reading, where an esoteric interpretation could be that the demons represent aspects of the mind/personality that he had to overcome?

The esoteric reading doesnt relate to an ancient historical man, rather it relates to the experiential phenomena from intense psychedelic tripping. The 'demonic struggle' is an allegorical description of control-loss/panic-attack/bad-trip experiences in the psychedelic state. It isnt the historical man Buddha that is important to the esotericist, what really matters is the experience that the Buddha is depicted undergoing.

 

[Vurtual]

...It isnt the historical man Buddha that is important to the esotericist, what really matters is ...

How do you know this? Are you claiming to know what all 'esotericists' think? I'd agree it isn't the historical man but the experience he had and how we might also have it that is important, but not that it was drugs that caused it - and neither would any actual buddhist 'esotericist' i've ever heard of - are you claiming to know more about their religion than they do?

 

[Doldrugs]

There's zero proof than any Buddhist text was written as an allegory for psychedelic use. Quote something from a source proving that. It's an utterly absurd claim.

 

[Erikmen]

Religions are predominantly based on terrifying, traumatic experiences. For example Christianity originates from the horrific torture and execution of Jesus, Judaism originates from Abraham being commanded by God to kill his own son, Buddha is attacked by demons during his enlightenment etc etc.

The problem is the generalization. You cannot do that. We are talking about too many millions of people maybe a billion. It´s not that Einstein..
I do get what you are saying though it makes sense if you look that way..

 

[max_freakout]

There's zero proof than any Buddhist text was written as an allegory for psychedelic use.

Gordon Wasson wrote about the entheogenic basis of Buddhism in the book 'Persephone's Quest'

Buddhism translates readily as entheogen-allegory, the Buddha is depicted eating magic rice-milk, then entering an intense altered state and becoming enlightened. To an esoteric insider, this is an allusion to eating entheogens and tripping out.

A core theme in entheogen-based esoteric religion is mental transformation, this is very clearly depicted in Buddhist symbolism, the Buddha is mentally transformed by his altered state experience under the Bodhi tree.

 

[Doldrugs]

Quote the relevant parts. Who agreed with him? Who disagreed with him?

 

[max_freakout]

We are talking about too many millions of people

There aren't that many religions, only a small number of major world religions. From the esoteric point of view all religions are equivalent, so there is only really one religion.

 

[Vurtual]

Gordon Wasson wrote about the entheogenic basis of Buddhism in the book 'Persephone's Quest'

Buddhism translates readily as entheogen-allegory, the Buddha is depicted eating magic rice-milk, then entering an intense altered state and becoming enlightened. To an esoteric insider, this is an allusion to eating entheogens and tripping out.

It translates even more readily and with much less effort as what it actually says it's about (esoterica included). Who are these esoteric insiders that think it's an allusion to tripping? If it's those authors you quote, they wouldn't even get to sweep the temples.

A core theme in entheogen-based esoteric religion is mental transformation, this is very clearly depicted in Buddhist symbolism, the Buddha is mentally transformed by his altered state experience under the Bodhi tree.

It's the circular logic again. I can give any number of examples of mystics who have achieved mystical transformations, and you can then say 'they had a mystical transformation, therefore they used drugs' - you need better arguments than that (Michael Hoffman supports the maximal entheogen theory (as i'm sure you know), and puts it across better in this page (along with an overview of entheogen-history theories) thanks for making me read up by the way - i'm still not converted to maximal, but moderate, certainly (that link does a bit of dissing of Letcher too Ismene (i think it's actually an overview aimed at helping to counter 'shroom')

 

[max_freakout]

I can give any number of examples of mystics who have achieved mystical transformations, and you can then say 'they had a mystical transformation, therefore they used drugs'

I wouldn't say this ^, for any particular person who had a mystical transformation, maybe they used drugs or maybe they didnt use drugs.

 

[Vurtual]

Fair dos. I enjoyed reading that hoffman page and catching up with the theories btw (last i'd read was mckenna and john allegro) - i really want to believe the full on version (like i'd like to believe the baroque conspiracies), but it's too big a stretch for me - especially as there are people i know well who achieved mystical mindstates without drugs.

Moderate Entheogen theory still offers plenty of influence for drugs to have had. I think the maximal theory is right if you take the arbitrary chemical trigger for consciousness expansion out, and just focus on the mystical mind state itself (whether you think it was mostly achieved with drugs or not) - say, a mystical theory of religious origins (not many people would argue with that). I just think your previous implication that we couldn't do mysticism or invent religions without drugs does a disservice to the power of our minds (without which, the drugs are just poisons).

 

[Erikmen]

There aren't that many religions, only a small number of major world religions. From the esoteric point of view all religions are equivalent, so there is only really one religion.

Well, looking under this perspective, yup it makes sense. And much easier to cope. But I believe most people don´t think like that.
It´s complicated. I´ve actually come to think that it all became quite a messy field these days.
Too much individualism and self interests involved. Manipulation, etc..

 

[Ismene]

tripping on mushrooms can be pleasurable, but it can also be harrowing and traumatic, participating in a mushroom ceremony in Mexico or an ayahuasca ceremony in Brazil can be a deeply challenging experience. Psychedelic mysticism is not all about hedonistic recreational enjoyment.

Maybe, maybe not. I always remember a woman who took mushrooms in Mexico crying when she was told a westerner had never taken them - because she couldn't imagine them missing out on such happiness. Maria Sabina said that as a child she and her friend used to take mushrooms and when her parents found her they would both be laid on the floor unable to stop laughing.

Religious symbolism tends to focus on the harrowing aspect of intense trippin

In all religions based on drugs the drug is the absolute, central, unchangeable aspect of the religion. You can't have a peyote religion without the peyote. How come all the religions based on drugs are obviously about drugs? Why didn't they change the fact that they were based on drugs too?

Gordon Wasson wrote about the entheogenic basis of Buddhism in the book 'Persephone's Quest'

Just because he wrote about it doesn't mean it's true tho - Wasson got awfully flakey towards the end of his life. You might has well say just because Erik Von Daniken said aliens built landing strips in Peru that's true too.

 

[Ismene]

(that link does a bit of dissing of Letcher too Ismene (i think it's actually an overview aimed at helping to counter 'shroom')

It's pretty deranged tho. That guy tries to argue that because Lecther doesn't think mushrooms were behind Jesus, he must be wrong because there's religious use of mushrooms in Mexico. Lechter says there's plenty of evidence or religious use in areas of Mesoamerica. The bit he thinks is bullshit is that people in the middle east were tripping on mushrooms. I don't think I've ever seen any evidence that disputes that.

 

[Erikmen]

Seriously?