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If weed isn't a "real" psychedelic how do you explain arabesque/hindu art?

Doldrugs said:
You're stating something absurd as irrefutable fact,and refusing to provide any proof other than "read an entire book.
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There is no such thing as an "irrefutable fact", and the concept of fact/fiction truth/falsity etc arent really relevant to a discussion about different interpretations of religion.

Several posters have asked about "evidence" for entheogen use in religion, so i have provided ample evidence in the form of published scholarship from entheogen scholars like Shanon and Hoffman. It is up to you if you want to look at the evidence or not, or how much of it you want to look at (a whole book, or part of a book, or whatever).

Doldrugs said:
When I actually found quotes from one of the authors you claimed proved your points, it was counter to your claims.
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I never claimed that any authors "prove my points", so it is incorrect to say that you provided any quotes from any of the authors that are "counter to my claims". The author you quoted from provides substantial evidence for entheogen use in religious history in his writing.

However if you want to see some writing that does argue against entheogen use in religion, Letcher's book is a good example that has been mentioned several times in this thread already, and i have outlined my reactions to Letcher.
 
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max_freakout said:
because the scriptures are easily recognisable as drug-allusions to anyone who is familiar with psychedelic experiencing
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So the new testament was written by people on drugs? That's all trip reports rather than simply reading the old testament and having your prophet do all the things the old testament says the messiah will do? How come the old testament is referenced in Islam too? Wouldn't the stories all be different if they were simply trip reports?

There have always been a core of esoteric insiders who understood the true meaning of the scriptures

I think we're in Da Vinci code territory here max.
 
max_freakout said:
See Merkur's book 'the psychedelic sacrament'
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I don't think Daniel Merkur counts as evidence max - he's a fringe lunatic writing bizarre books about dreams and becoming a shaman. His living depends on coming up with a theory deranged enough to attract attention - the truth has nothing to do with it.
 
Ismene said:
So the new testament was written by people on drugs?
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I wouldnt say this ^.
Nothing is known about the people who wrote the new testament. The stories in the new testament (and every other religious scripture) can be interpreted as allegorical descriptions of drug experiences, that is the esoteric/mystical interpretation of the stories.


Ismene said:
How come the old testament is referenced in Islam too? Wouldn't the stories all be different if they were simply trip reports?
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Why should they be different? Islamic scriptures do contain many stories that are simply recycled from the older religions (judeo-christianity), many of the main bible stories are reproduced in the Quran. Islam is precisely equivalent to judaism and christianity from the esoteric perspective, its is based on stories of prophets (such as Mohammed) experiencing mystical transformation

Ismene said:
I think we're in Da Vinci code territory here max.
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the Da Vinci code is popular conspiracy-theory type entertainment, it has nothing to do with entheogenic religion
 
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Ismene said:
I don't think Daniel Merkur counts as evidence max - he's a fringe lunatic writing bizarre books about dreams and becoming a shaman. His living depends on coming up with a theory deranged enough to attract attention - the truth has nothing to do with it.
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this ^ is nonsense
Merkur is a highly accomplished scholar of religion and psychology, and a professional psychotherapist. So he is well-qualified to investigate the question of entheogens in religious history.
 
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Dresden said:
They had Soma.
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Soma is one of the Hindu words for the entheogenic sacrament (Hindu scripture also mentions 'ambrosia' and 'nectar of immortality')

Wasson covers entheogenic Hinduism in his book 'Persephone's quest'
 
max_freakout said:
you don't need to find any evidence "for me", if you want to see the evidence of judeo-christian drug use for yourself, that book by Merkur is a good place to start. There are a number of other books that are similar but id recommend you start with that one as it is clear and accessible and it covers christian history.
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You are making a claim and then appear unwilling/unable to substantiate it. Be reasonable, I am not going to read an entire book to determine whether I agree or disagree with you. You could at least point out the pages that back up your claims and I could see if I can find a PDF or better yet, you could post one... Until you do that, can you understand how it seems like you are just being stubborn and refusing to back away from your claims to save face? I'm not trying to be rude or anything but just asking for you to help us out. :)

You have made some really categorical statements:

max said:
Every religious story is allegory for altered state experience. Every religion begins with a person tripping out
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Such a statement speaks of the confidence you have in this issue. If you are confident in the veracity of your claims, can't you post some evidence- not book names; that is not evidence- but some paraphrasing where an author talks about examining primary evidence relating directly to use of psychedelics by the founders of world religions. Because the certainty with which you make these statements suggests that you MUST have this direct evidence at hand.
 
max_freakout said:
this ^ is nonsense
Merkur is a highly accomplished scholar of religion and psychology, and a professional psychotherapist. So he is well-qualified to investigate the question of entheogens in religious history.
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He's a fucking charlatan. Half baked astrologer struggling to make a living off the back of gullible new age hippies.
 
Ismene said:
He's a fucking charlatan. Half baked astrologer struggling to make a living off the back of gullible new age hippies.
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This ^ is nonsense, Merkur is a highly accomplished scholar and academic, and he makes a living as a professional psychotherapist. He has also written a number of scholarly books about entheogens and the history of religion. He has nothing to do with new age, hippies or astrology.
 
Vurtual said:
(i think it's actually an overview aimed at helping to counter 'shroom')
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Got round to reading a bit of it - difficult to take anything they say seriously. Like that picture of the "liberty cap" on the church door - it's easy to find some picture of something that looks vaguely like a mushroom, take it out of context and then claim it as evidence. Obviously if you havn't got a fucking clue what you are looking at then you go "Dude, that looks like a liberty cap to me". 2 minutes actually researching it proves it's a fucking fig tree. Makes you wonder why these people didn't do that research before claiming it as a mushroom.
 
There's nothing wrong with being an astrologer or believing in astrology.
 
It sounds like you have a personal problem with people whose beliefs differ from your own.
 
Dresden said:
It sounds like you have a personal problem with people whose beliefs differ from your own.
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Sounds like you have to go to ad hominem because you can't defend a well known scam with a real argument.

There's nothing personal about saying astrology is bunk. It's just stating a long proven fact.
 
People are entitled to believe whatever they want to, even if what they believe doesn't make sense to you, and there's nothing you can do about it.
 
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