• 🇳🇿 🇲🇲 🇯🇵 🇨🇳 🇦🇺 🇦🇶 🇮🇳
    Australian & Asian
    Drug Discussion

    Welcome Guest!
    Posting Rules Bluelight Rules
  • AADD Moderators: Tronica

ice + killing

well, "people" is a strong word.. but i guess, something like that, you know how it is, on the farms.
 
Dont forget the shadow people!! as for farm, deliverance is a good example - heh, no worries.. Just hope BL'ers can identify that they need sleep, food, water, and to acknowledge they have a problem/time to reduce usage, when starting to snap at others/contemplating violence etc, would really suck if it was someone here who ends up being in the media for ice induced rage etc..


Damnit, cant help to log back in when ive got to finish some scripting for a client lol, but thinking about it now YES way more violent, and one thing I always forget, I actually look like like a 6 foot mean bastard (but of course im not!! mdma+love! heh), so I guess I never get staunched out, so I better put my comments aside - oops. And more likely to be the mongrel mob prospectors, aka usually and now mixed races/ 16 - 21+ year olds! and I bet it was in the manners mall area or lower hutt central?..

v
 
Last edited:
maxload said:
Ice psycosis is pretty much universal, too little sleep seems to make even sane people snap. NZ as a whole is alot more violent, period. It is why I now live in Oz (and other reasons). Oz generally have a happy go lucky attitude ( she'll be right mate!) whilst NZ often have a killer attitude to depression.

It is a generalisation but the poor see violence as a means of venting frustration. NZ is alot poorer than Oz.

If whitebait wasn't $100/kg we would all just sit around eating fritters, hitting the pipe and playing guitar.

You can't play guitar with only one hand.
Click to expand...

I agree that NZ is more violent, period. When I was growing up there I got into way more fights, and whenever i visit (like over last Christmas), I'm always being staunched out by dickheads....:\ That just doesn't seem to happen to me in Brissy.

Of course there are more rational and on to it people like my family over there (and person!), but on the whole there are more angry fuckers wanting a fight.

Anyway, I pretty much agree with the above quote!
 
Actually this whole discussion has been really insightful!! seriously this would kick any serious debating team and ministry of health board meeting.

Really appreciate the input and hearing from all sides.

Cheers + Peace.

[EDIT: Let's keep it on topic guys, this isn't about which city or country is more violent. Cheers, hoptis]

edited: to keep on topic, thanks.
 
Last edited:
Here are some points I'd like to make, sorry if I am stating things that have been said in other posts, but the truth is that I have my contact lenses in and I can't be looking at the screen for too long heh%) no, seriously!

Anyway, I do find this a little disturbing. However, a part of me questions whether meth is the problem or the people are the problem. It is scientifically very difficult to answer exactly as to whether or not these murders would have been committed in the absence of the drug. Perhaps an existing mental instability may have existed in the people who have commited these acts and maybe this instability influenced their reaction in an unconfortable situation. Perhaps the same instability also influenced their usage of the drug. Maybe the drug only worsened their actions a certain degree because of the affect on adrenalin in their systems.

Then again, I am certainly not one to question the mentally profound negative affects of meth-induced psychosis. What a shame it is that some people are pushing themselves to this point in which they are so angry or so detatched that they could end a life. One thing we can be sure of is that there will alway be people abusing drugs (no matter which we are talking about) and there will always be people committing murder. And there will always be people who abuse drugs and commit murder.

Alos, I think the media likes to make things simple, you know, good cowboy dressed in white, bad cowboy dressed in black, sort of thing. The media often incorrectly assumes that correlation implies causation and they often make it seem like it was drugs that caused an innocent person to commit an evil act. Sometimes the drug user is the bad cowboy, and sometimes it's just the drugs that are the bad cowboy.

I think it's plain to see that things aren't that simple, and you can't always trust what you read or hear from a source that has to sensationalise in order to make ratings or sell a certain number of copies. This is not to say that everything in the media is incorrect or exaggerated, however. But I think we can safely say that, although any murder is big news, a murder that involves another important topic like drugs is easy to beat up a little. If we had the statistics at our fingertips, only then could we even begin to make a judgement on where the problem really lies.
 
'Ice' user claim in kill case
Brendan Roberts
February 07, 2007 12:00am

0,,5381428,00.jpg

Beaten to death: Lilina Lam, 3, suffered terrible injuries.

A MAN accused of beating his girlfriend's three-year-old daughter to death was hooked on "ice" and smoked the killer drug three times a week, a court has heard.

Phong Quach, 22, used ice regularly for two years and was a long-time heroin addict at the time of Liliana Lam's death last May, Melbourne Magistrates' Court was told.

Liliana's mother, Dieu Lam, told the court yesterday Mr Quach smoked "ice" several times a week in a "crack" pipe in the months leading up to her daughter's death.

Mr Quach is charged with Liliana's murder.

Police allege he caused Liliana's injuries during two incidents at the Lam family's Noble Park home.

Forensic pathologist Dr Malcolm Dodd told the court Liliana died from acute internal blood loss and blunt force trauma to the abdomen. She had also several bruises to the head, chest and back.

Dr Dodd said Liliana's fatal injuries were likely caused by someone repeatedly banging her head on the ground and punching, kicking or hitting her forcefully to the abdomen, or striking her with a blunt instrument.

Liliana was taken to Monash Medical Centre on May 3 but died from her injuries.

Hours later, police arrested Mr Quach and searched the Lam home, where he was living.

The court heard investigators found a crack pipe hidden under Mr Quach's bed and a video cassette case containing white powder. Forensic tests are yet to determine what the substance is.

Ms Lam told the court Mr Quach was happy and relaxed immediately after using the drug, but often become erratic and aggressive when he was "coming down".

Several members of Ms Lam's family told the court both Mr Quach and Ms Lam were regular drug users who stayed in their bedroom and rarely ate, causing both to become gaunt and anti-social.

Liliana's grandmother, Phung Thi Nguyen, said she contacted Mr Quach's father and told him she wanted Mr Quach out of her house. Sen-Det Jason Williams, from the homicide squad, told the court Mr Quach had made admissions to police.

The preliminary hearing, before magistrate Julian Fitz-Gerald, continues today.
Click to expand...

Herald Sun
 
My innerself - Have you ever thought of getting help? Thinking that cutting your family's heads off as a rational thought is definatly not healthy. If you have thought it once, you will think it again, and next time they could be in arms reach.

There are plently of places that will help free of charge.

Try this Online - www.counsellingonline.org.au or TollFree - 1800 888 236
 
What the hell would possess anyone to beat a 3 year old to death.... even if you are a demented schizophrenic junky?


shorza: Although I think it's great people run a free service for drug and alcohol (ab)users, I never received any help at all from them at times when needed, nor have any one I know who were having a problem. They're not trained at all.
 
^interesting feedback. The people who staff the telephone and online counselling mentioned by shorza are trained, but I agree that the extent of this training may not be sufficient. At the very least, they should be able to refer you to an agency that can actually help. They can give you the address of the nearest needle exchange, or methadone prescriber - that's of some value I guess...

But yeah - I personally don't know anyone who has had much help from counselling of any sort, full stop. We all kind of end up working it out ourselves, one way or another - or dying...
 
They are quick to give you a number but don't really seem interesting in a chat more than a minute. I guess it is helpful to get a number instead of nothing.
 
For kiwis you can surf+contact http://www.cads.org.nz/
or if your wanting to talk to someone you can ring -> lifeline (09) 5222 999 within Auckland *or* 0800 111 777 outside Auckland (can ring from mobile) 24/7. They know about it, your not alone. Thought ill post this info incase a BL'er or friend needs some desperate help. Know your limits! but dont fuck it up for the rest of us, do what you have to do and stay safe. Violence+murder on meth is a cop out and is only for pathetic people.
 
NEWS: Sydney Morning Herald -18/02/07'Ice linked to rise in killings by mentally ill'

Ice linked to rise in killings by mentally ill
John Kidman
February 18, 2007

FEWER Australians are being murdered but the number of killers with a pre-existing mental illness has more than doubled in a year, latest figures reveal.

Almost one in five (51) of the 267 homicide victims in Australia in 2004-05 were the victims of a mentally disturbed perpetrator, the Australian Institute of Criminology's 17th annual report showed.

Project author and senior analyst Jenny Mouzos said this represented "a noticeable increase" over 2003-04, when people with a mental condition killed 7 per cent (21) of 305 victims.

Dr Mouzos said the increasing prevalence of mentally ill killers might be due to society's growing awareness of illness and willingness to report it.

But NSW Mental Health Association chief executive Gillian Church said a frightening new potential trigger could be emerging: ice.

"Conventional wisdom says people with a mental illness are no more likely to be violent than anyone else in the community," Dr Church said.

"But when you mix mental illness with drugs, particularly drugs like ice, then it's a recipe for disaster."

National Media and Mental Health Group project manager Jaelea Skehan said it was important to remember the "No. 1 violence risk factor in this country is being male".

"The second is being on substances - and what you often get is mental illness in a mix with both of them," she said.

The report found that more than half of all people arrested and charged with murder during the study period had consumed alcohol or drugs at the time.

Its release follows the stabbing death of a nine-month-old girl at Campsie, in Sydney's west, in December.

Jayant Kumar Singh, 53, has been accused of her murder. The court heard that he had a history of pre-existing mental problems.

Last October, a 24-year-old man, who was accused of killing war veteran Robert Narramore by pushing him under a car at Riverwood, was found to have been suffering schizophrenia for 21 years.
Click to expand...

SMH
 
Australian Institute of Criminology - Media Release no. 2007/01

Lowest number of homicide incidents since the start of the National Homicide Monitoring Program
Media Release, no. 2007/01
5 February 2007

'A total of 249 homicide incidents in 2004-05 is the lowest annual number since national monitoring began in 1989', Dr Toni Makkai, Director of the Australian Institute of Criminology, said today when releasing Homicide in Australia: 2004-05 National homicide monitoring program annual report. 'The incidence of homicide decreased by 14 percent from the previous year and has continued a downward trend since 2002-2003' Dr Makkai said.

The annual report presents findings for the sixteenth year of national homicide data collection in Australia and includes data on all incidents, victims and offenders of homicide in 2004-05. The report highlights consistencies or changes in incidents and characteristics of victims and offenders over time.

In 2004-05 there were 249 homicide incidents resulting in the deaths of 267 people - a rate of 1.3 per 100,000 population - committed by 286 offenders.

Differences compared with the previous year, included:

  • a smaller number of firearm deaths: in 2004-05 40 victims (15% ) were killed with a firearm compared to 17% (53 victims) in 2003-04.
  • handguns accounting for a smaller proportion of firearms related deaths in 2004-05 (42% ) compared with 53% in 2003-04.
  • a decrease in homicides during the course of robbery offences (down from 31% to 14% ).
  • an increase in the age group for those most at risk of victimisation: persons aged between 35 and 39 years experienced the highest rate of homicide victimisation in 2004-05 (rate of 2.6) whereas in the previous year, the highest risk age group was between 20 and 24 (rate of 2.4).
  • an increase in the number of victims killed by an offender with a mental disorder: 24 percent (51 victims) in 2004-05, compared with seven percent in 2003-04.

Similarities included:

  • most solved homicide incidents involved one victim and one offender
  • the majority of homicide incidents occurred in a residential setting
  • most homicide victims were male (two-thirds). The male rate of victimisation is twice the rate of female homicide victimisation
  • The majority of offenders were men. Male offenders were most likely to kill a friend or acquaintance (32% ), (strangers 22%, intimates 20% ). Women offenders were most likely to kill intimates or family members (66% )
  • a knife or sharp instrument is the most commonly used weapon - used against 31 percent of victims in 2004-05
  • disputes continue to be the most common motive for homicide; with male victims most likely to be killed by a friend or acquaintance(38% ). Male intimate partners pose the greatest risk to females (57% of female victims were killed by an intimate partner).
  • Children are most likely to be killed by a primary caregiver, usually a parent (81 percent). An equal proportion of fathers and mothers kill their children.

In terms of characteristics of offenders, 2004-05 data showed that
  • over half of male offenders had a criminal history, while 12 per cent of female offenders had a criminal history.
  • just over half (52% ) of the homicide offenders arrested and charged had consumed alcohol (33% ), illicit or prescription drugs (12% ) or both (7% ) at the time of the incident
  • less than one fifth (17% ) of homicide offenders and 12 per cent of homicide victim were Indigenous Australians. (Indigenous Australians comprise two percent of the Australian population.)

'The NHMP dataset has increasingly been recognised for its wealth of information directly informing public policy. The data are being used to assist the police in developing investigation strategies and in the prosecution of offenders', Dr Makkai said.

Dr Makkai acknowledged the important contribution of police and coronial agencies in the provision of data for this program. 'Without their continued support, the National Homicide Monitoring Program and associated research would not be possible.'
Click to expand...

Australian Institute of Criminology - Media Release no. 2007/01
 
^Interesting report - so the so-called "Ice Age" isn't being reflected in increased homicides. Kind of like the "pot causes psychosis" malarky not being reflected in mental health stats....

Drugs do make a good scapegoat, don't they?
 
Bizarre and disturbing story...

Did ice turn this man into a sadistic rapist?
Liz Porter
March 18, 2007

18WALD_narrowweb__300x374,0.jpg

Wald used his victim's mobile phone to threaten the youth's girlfriend.
Photo: Anne Spudvilas

CROWN prosecutor Mark Rochford's voice is oddly flat as he describes the sadistic bashing and rape of a 19-year-old man, dragged off a suburban street as he walked home from a nightclub. The confessed rapist, Michael Scott Wald, 22, subjected the teenager to a four-hour nightmare reminiscent of scenes from Quentin Tarantino's Reservoir Dogs.

Now, almost a year after the attack, he is sitting in the gallery- like dock at the back of the County Court 3-4, just metres behind the prosecutor.

But Mr Rochford doesn't look at the defendant, let alone point at him. Today is not a day for emotional language or rhetorical flourishes. There is no jury here to be swayed to extremes of moral outrage — and the victim isn't present. Still so traumatised by what Wald did to him, he can barely leave his house, let alone attend court for his erstwhile tormentor's arraignment.

Because the defendant has pleaded guilty, this is a "plea hearing" in front of Judge John Barnett, a 17-year veteran of the County Court bench. But if there were a jury present, the prosecutor still wouldn't have to muster his persuasive powers. The details of Wald's crime speak for themselves. Even in the leaden prose of the police "summary of offences", they chill the blood and sicken the heart.

Yet the heinousness of this crime begs for an explanation. What turns a 21-year-old (as Wald was at the time of the crime) into the sadistic monster who was abroad in the early hours of that terrible Sunday? Certainly, he has "priors" for some armed robberies, committed at the age of 15. Holding a knife, he robbed commuters near Frankston railway station. But he has never been convicted for bashing anyone or for any kind of sex offences.

Defence barrister Tim Gattuso raises one possible answer: "ice", the street name for the crystal methamphetamine hydrochloride. This deadly brain-altering drug induces euphoria, hyper-alertness and increased strength and has been linked to episodes of aggression and violence.

On the night of the offence, the barrister tells the court, Wald had been at a friend's 21st where he had smoked a full gram of "ice" while drinking copious amounts of bourbon and vodka. He had been abusing "ice" since he was 16. But a fifth of a gram was his usual dose and he didn't mix it with alcohol.

The defence lawyer says that Wald also has a brain injury — frontal lobe damage sustained in a motor bike accident when he was 16. He tenders a report by Collins Street clinical neuropsychologist Dr James Drury explaining that Wald's frontal lobe damage was capable, on its own, of causing "disinhibited behaviour".

"If the brain damage didn't cause the disinhibited behaviour on this night, it would certainly have exacerbated the effects of the drugs and alcohol," the lawyer says. These factors must, he urges, reduce his client's level of moral culpability.

Judge Barnett gets testy when the defence starts wheeling out statistics linking "ice" use with violent crime. "This is as old as Methuselah," he snaps. "One third of ice users commit crimes when under the influence of the drug. I have heard all this before."

While not commenting on this specific case, Professor Nick Crofts, director of Turning Point Alcohol and Drug Centre, is generally dismissive of "ice" as a cause of crime. "Two things have become current in the media," he says. "One is 'ice', when what (people) mean is just potent methamphetamines (speed). The other is that ice causes psychosis. Amphetamines do cause psychosis and there is such a thing as amphetamine-related psychosis." But, according to the expert, most aggressive episodes blamed on "ice" actually involve "somebody with a personality disorder who, under the influence of alcohol and amphetamines or a mixture of both, does nasty things".

"It is not the ice, it is the personality disorder plus the disinhibiting or stimulating effect of the amphetamines and the alcohol."

Back in the County Court, Wald's barrister sketches in the dark details of his client's background. It's a tragic story. His biological father's desertion — then a failed reconciliation with him in 2005. A low IQ. A troubled childhood, further burdened by his mother's drug use. Difficulties at school meant he left at 14 with the reading skills of a grade four student.

Judge Barnett breaks in to note that many people come before this court on armed robbery charges, and with wrenching personal histories involving drug and alcohol use, mental illness and intellectual disability. "But they don't often commit rape at the same time," he says.

So what demons were driving Michael Scott Wald?

The facts, as set out in both the police summary and the victim's statement, offer no clues.

In the early hours of an autumn Sunday, Wald's attention was drawn by a young man walking ahead of him on an empty outer suburban street.

Drunk enough to have been refused service at one establishment, the 19-year-old would have been an obvious target. He was concentrating on the call he was making to his girlfriend on his mobile phone.

The attack began, like countless other urban muggings, with Wald jabbing a knife blade into his victim's back and demanding his phone. But then, instead of just taking it and fleeing, the defendant stayed to torment his victim.

First he frogmarched the youth around the deserted streets, punching him, kicking him, and ramming his head into a tree, poles and a shop window. Then, after forcing him to a secluded area, he raped him twice.

Throughout the attack, Wald used the victim's mobile phone as an extra prop in his crude power game. After slamming his victim's head into the window, he rang mates to boast about his thefts. Putting the phone on loud speaker, he forced his victim to tell his friends on the other end "what just happened to you". As the youth complied, he could hear laughter coming from the speaker.

Yet by 5am, Wald seemed to be returning to "normal".

Allowing the victim to use his own phone to call for a taxi, he gave him $20 for the fare.

Then, as they waited for the cab, he said "I'm really sorry. I wish I didn't meet you. You didn't deserve this. I just get like this when I'm drunk."

But his change of heart was incomplete.

After the assault he made calls to the victim's girlfriend, threatening to kill her. He also telephoned another friend of the victim, asking her to tell him "thanks for keeping his mouth shut".

This relish for threatening calls would later bring Wald undone. He kept his own SIM card inside the victim's phone, enabling police to track him down.

"There isn't any explanation as to why this happened," says the prosecutor, who seems truly puzzled by this "bizarre" crime, as he keeps calling it.

The perpetrator is also especially perplexed by the sexual attack, his lawyer says.

"He is not homosexual and has never been interested in sexual relationships with males," his defence lawyer tells the court. Although his recall of the crime is hazy, his client is "deeply remorseful".

"It is a bizarre incident in his mind and one he regrets on every possible level."

The barrister then hands the judge a handwritten letter of apology from Wald to his victim.

"We are hoping that it will be forwarded … if (the victim) wishes to receive it."

When Judge Barnett sentences Wald (at a time yet to be fixed) he is likely to speak about the victim's own impact statement.

Read to the court by the prosecutor, it evokes a life in ruins. Sacked from his job because he was too traumatised to go to work, the victim has attempted suicide and is now on anti-depressants. "Before I was confident and happy with my job and my life," he says. "Now my life has completely changed. I now believe I can't do anything. I blame myself for what happened and I can't shift the blame. I find it very hard to talk about it."

As Mr Gattuso winds up his plea for a sentence taking into account his client's age and situation, he also uses the word "victim" about Michael Scott Wald, referring to him as "a victim of many competing circumstances".

It is as well that the real victim, or his family, aren't in court to hear.
Click to expand...

The Age
 
ayjay said:
^Interesting report - so the so-called "Ice Age" isn't being reflected in increased homicides. Kind of like the "pot causes psychosis" malarky not being reflected in mental health stats....

Drugs do make a good scapegoat, don't they?
Click to expand...

We had a big discussion a few weeks ago about how Sydney is more angry and paranoid than ever before while out for a hens night. The discussion ended up turning to the ice epidemic.

A friend was telling us about her and her friends who are all qualified nurses and how they all now absolutly refuse to work in emergency anymore because of the ice users.

The problem half the time isn't when the addicted (and usually heavily addicted) user is high - its the come down. We've lost several mates over their ice come downs. They are paraniod and dulusional and when we dropped them as mates it was because out of fear for our own safety. My mate on nye was laying into us and accusing us of being terrible mates. we ended up throwing him out when he nearly started a punch up over it. He was coming down off ice and paranoid as hell.

Don't get me started on a couple of people who post on these boards who I've no time for as a result of them coming down and being dulusional.

If you think the news is a load of bull and I'm not saying I believe everything I read in the telegraph or other news medias. I really recommend a trip to St Vincents hospital on the weekend to see the real extent of the problem.
 
get help ASAP mate

shorza said:
My innerself - Have you ever thought of getting help? Thinking that cutting your family's heads off as a rational thought is definatly not healthy. If you have thought it once, you will think it again, and next time they could be in arms reach.

There are plently of places that will help free of charge.

Try this Online - www.counsellingonline.org.au or TollFree - 1800 888 236
Click to expand...

I absolutely agree... this is not normal. It is quite likely your violent tendencies/thoughts are escalating in intensity as you increase your methamphetamine dosing in an attempt to chase the first high. Eventually you don't reach the high even with phenomenally high doses, BUT the negative side effects of this high meth dose easily manifest themselves.

This isn't just hollow advice either... I was there not too long ago mate... I've turned it all around now, which is wonderful. Your best bet (IMO)...
1. look for a doctor or counseller who specialises in drug addiction... it doesnt necessarily need to be specifically for meth, though nowadays it's a lot more common! (not so when I sought help in OCT2005... no one was really seeking help for ice, mainly heroin and alcohol)
2. start taking anti-depressants (on doctors advice of course!)... I found SNRI Edronax (and before that the NARI, bupropion, Xyban) work wonders for me. Both anti-depressants work similarly by targetting the chemicals in the brain that meth have depleted (noradrenaline and dopamine levels, respectively). SSRIs target serotonin, but may still be effective. Ask your doctor.
3. VERY IMPORTANT -- tell your doctor the truth!!! It helps to cut the cycle of denial and lying and have the best advice possible. If you continue using despite assuring the doctor you quit, tell him the truth about what happened. If you try and pull the wool over their eyes, it not only never works, it also denies you the chance of the dr helping you with accurate info.
4. PM me if you wanna know more. It ain't as hard as you'd think to change your shit around... from wanting to kill those close to, to feeling lucky to have em.

Sorry to rant... but this does concern me cos you do sound like a nice guy who needs some better advice than "get 30 min of non-sleep every 4 days" to make it thru this

-sim
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top