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I want to go to hell.

My understanding of the problem of evil is this:

God is Love and omnipotent.
There is evil.
God either doesn't exist, isn't omnipotent or is 'sadistic' or unloving..

I noticed you didn't mention free will as a theodicy at all. Eg we choose not to have God in our lives. God is all powerful but has allowed these things to happen as He has allowed us to live apart from Him as our own gods and authors of our lives.

It intrigues me how people, who choose not to have God in their lives, wonder where He is when they see the evil of God in the world or in thier lives.
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I would say your version of the problem of evil is over simple and the idea of free will is incompatible with Christianity. Calvinism for example suggests that we are all chosen beforehand whether we go to hell or heaven. Personally I think the idea of free will whether you are christian or not is only an illusion for as Spinoza said "In the Mind there is no absolute, or free, will, but the Mind is determined to will this or that by a cause which is also determined by another, and this again by another, and so to infinity." And as I see it everything that should happen happens and everything that shouldn't happen doesn't. As for the problem of evil I think Epicurus said it best.

"If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to
Then He is not omnipotent.
If He is able, but not willing
Then He is malevolent.
If He is both able and willing
Then whence cometh evil?
If He is neither able nor willing
Then why call Him God?"

To me the problem of evil is proof that there is no God. It is an inescapable paradox. Unless of course God is not an entity or being with thoughts and perspectives and opinions. If God simply is or is a form that is not anthropomorphic then I guess I could see God existing. I guess to me pantheism makes the most sense. The idea that God is nature seems more logical and reasonable to me than Yahweh or Jesus.
 
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Id be happier if you'd quoted from the bible to support your assertion rather than refer to a theologians ideas about free will.

How about God is Yahweh, Jesus and Nature.. is that pantheistic enough for you? Surely its illogical to assume
that everything is God apart from Jesus and Yahweh?

Anyway I dont want to derail the thread. Happy to discuss anytime youd like to start a Problem of Evil discussion though. :)

I'll leave you with some CS Lewis from The Problem Of Pain. :)

“We can, perhaps, conceive of a world in which God corrected the results of this abuse of free will by His creatures at every moment: so that a wooden beam became soft as grass when it was used as a weapon, and the air refused to obey me if I attempted to set up in it the sound waves that carry lies or insults. But such a world would be one in which wrong actions were impossible, and in which, therefore, freedom of the will would be void; nay, if the principle were carried out to its logical conclusion, evil thoughts would be impossible, for the cerebral matter which we use in thinking would refuse its task when we attempted to frame them]

Pindar.. I cant say I fully understand the book of Job, in all honesty. Oddly, I feel great comfort from it n times of stress
or trial though. A lot of blessings came from the mans pain and its worth remembering that Job receives all he lost
back and the latter part of His life was more blessed.
 
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Whoah there I meant no offense if offense was taken. I thought we were just having a discussion.

And in response to your question no it is not. For its a totally different ideology. Most Christians believe that God is a personal God. How can nature be anything but impersonal? The vastness of just this world alone dwarfs our silly little bodies. And the world is indifferent to us as it is to all things. The fact that 99.9% of all species that have ever existed on this planet have gone extinct stands as proof. What makes us so special? Nothing. We fool ourselves with ideas of grandeur and importance. When in fact we are little more than clever apes that have the brain power to create such elaborate self deceptions such as God, heaven, and hell.

And my reference to Calvinism is albeit an unfair blanket to cover all christian beliefs. But you got to admit that the God of the old testament Yahweh is something of a control freak with genocidal tendencies.
 
Woah there.. Does it look like I'm offended? :D

You can be an ape.. I'm happy to be a Princess and a child of God.. ( each to their own.. Here have a banana)

Again, I would be both happier to argue your points and ideas about Christianity with reference to bible verses rather than theologians or your own musings.

I think we see Gods rage in Yahweh. Theres one verse in the bible that I can think of that seems to be de rigueur amongst
atheists to support thier assertions that Yawheh is genocidal.. If you want to trawl it up in another thread i'm more than happy to look at it with you. :)
There are things in the bible I dont understand Fred. I dont understand Yahweh but then He is God. * shrug *
 
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As I often equate sarcasm with annoyance and annoyance with... well you can see where I'm going. But as to whether or not I can see you being offended or not, no as we are not in the presence of each other so happy polly logies for my apology. ;)
 
Actually yes I think I will start a problem of evil discussion.

I hope to see you there. It promises to be interesting. ;)
 
How about God is Yahweh, Jesus and Nature.. is that pantheistic enough for you?
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I perceived this as sarcasm before you edited the post. Now not so much. ;)

P.S. Problem of evil thread has been started. Again hope to see you there.
 
Fred I edited it before you suggested I was being sarcastic if you look at the timing.. and it was to add a paragraph for Pindar. :)
I'm glad you no longer see the post as sarcastic.

Had a glance at the new thread and am looking forward to contributing but not until tomorrow ..

Peace n Love
 
Yes well I was probably still typing my response before I read your edited version as we were both exchanging posts rather rapidly. As this part

Surely its illogical to assume that everything is God apart from Jesus and Yahweh?
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was not in the post I read originally.

Anyways... moving on.
 
The road to hell is wide, gently downward sloping, and quite easy to walk. Just let your relationships with other people go to pot, stop working at improving yourself, and be content to just wallow in selfishness. You'll be there in no time flat.

Oh, but you're talking about the place that fire and brimstone preachers love to talk about? It's not a part of original Christian or Jewish doctrine at all. The Jews have never clearly articulated a doctrine of the afterlife (though Kabbalists are decidedly into rebirth / reincarnation), and Jesus's talk of the fires of Gehenna probably referred to an actual burning trash heap outside the city gates of Jerusalem, where the bodies of those deemed unworthy of a proper burial were thrown.

Hell was a European pagan belief that long predates Christianity -- think the abode of Hades in Greek mythology. The idea that if you're bad, God will damn you to Hell is a Western folk belief, that occurs nowhere in the Christian bible or any early writings.
 
MyDoorsAreOpen said:
The road to hell is wide, gently downward sloping, and quite easy to walk. Just let your relationships with other people go to pot, stop working at improving yourself, and be content to just wallow in selfishness. You'll be there in no time flat.
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mmm indeed, and - "all seekers seek seeked"
AC

as all leaders led lead.
UC


~
go to ISIS/Ishtar' Maze Of Grace HHH!!!
there is everything you want to deny and revel in about yourself.
lol
i swears it

"constant shallowness leads to pure evil"
coil
 
MyDoorsAreOpen said:
The road to hell is wide, gently downward sloping, and quite easy to walk. Just let your relationships with other people go to pot, stop working at improving yourself, and be content to just wallow in selfishness. You'll be there in no time flat.
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If you're addressing me I live the humble life of a public servant. I only enjoy life as far as I'm making life better for all people around me. As I believe I previously stated it's currently the only reason I don't just off myself.
MyDoorsAreOpen said:
Oh, but you're talking about the place that fire and brimstone preachers love to talk about? It's not a part of original Christian or Jewish doctrine at all. The Jews have never clearly articulated a doctrine of the afterlife (though Kabbalists are decidedly into rebirth / reincarnation), and Jesus's talk of the fires of Gehenna probably referred to an actual burning trash heap outside the city gates of Jerusalem, where the bodies of those deemed unworthy of a proper burial were thrown.

Hell was a European pagan belief that long predates Christianity -- think the abode of Hades in Greek mythology. The idea that if you're bad, God will damn you to Hell is a Western folk belief, that occurs nowhere in the Christian bible or any early writings.
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Not really, I'm already aware of the information you posted. That misconception is not held by me. assuming the Abrahamic god I'd look forward to the whole hanging out with satan on a plane separate from god.
 
According to the Abrahamic tradition that you appear to be alluding to hiphop , it might be argued that there will be no 'hanging out' with satan. Its a place devoid of Light and Love which is God.. Youre deluded if you think its going to be sex, drugs and rock n roll. According to the same tradition- just an eternity of tormented awareness without hope of change or mercy.

All Abrahamic traditions share the same eschatological world view ending with resurrection and final judgement. Most Christian
traditions see that judgment as eternal. Some cults see it differently but again to meander into the ideas of, for example,
the Jehovahs Withesses, would take another several threads. If weve got a JW who would like to look at translations.
Or if anyone wants to discuss a similar eschatology I'm more than happy to contribute to a thread.

Are you serious about preferring an eternity of hell or just being polemical?

I wouldnt want anyone to attempt to convince me of that Panic in Paradise. I wouldnt even want to ponder such a thing.
What an awful thing to say! The devil is a Spirit not a human.
 
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hiphophippy said:
assuming the Abrahamic god I'd look forward to the whole hanging out with satan on a plane separate from god.
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Aren't you falling into a dualistic trap by assuming that satan is simply the opposite of god, or hell is the opposite of heaven, and because you don't like one, you have to like the other? I don't see the point in that; you may as well say that you like daytime because its not night. Its illogical and seperates you from being able to appreciate the true nature of reality.
 
willow11 said:
Aren't you falling into a dualistic trap by assuming that satan is simply the opposite of god, or hell is the opposite of heaven, and because you don't like one, you have to like the other? I don't see the point in that; you may as well say that you like daytime because its not night. Its illogical and seperates you from being able to appreciate the true nature of reality.
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No, I'm mixing post Christ religious fiction with Biblically supported stuff. Basically, Satan told god he was a dick and left heaven with a bunch of Angles but then got banished to Tartarus. though he somehow escaped, evidence Job and Eve. It's not really until the new testament that all this fanatic scary stuff shows up, but that is gahnea which was a continually burning trash heap. and not until a few hundred years after that does all this "really" scary stuff shows up.
I just go with the separation from god model a la Pope John Paul II and Billy Graham.

Especially regarding Revelations and hell I would suggest looking into various Apocrypha. AKA shit the church doesn't want you to know about. aka shit that has been removed over the years to protect the churches ass.
 
Or because its bullshit Hip Hop?? There are no apocyrphal works that I am aware of that were or are part of the apostlolic
tradition- the tradition and teachings that go back to the apostles and the people that surrounded the historical Christ.

Where is your fiction here Hip Hop and where is the biblical stuff that you refer to? Why dont we look at the biblical stuff
first if you have the chapters and verses?
Further, lets have a look at some quotes from Billy Graham and the Pope that might support your argument.
 
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