I Like to Draw Pictures of Random Molecules

[Transform]

I should have clarified that more. Certainly I regard shulgin as a success but I am not sure that DOW feel the same and I didn't know how you were defining that.

But yes; less talk of ammonia "catalysing" fragrance structures and more listening, please.

 

[SeenSoFar]

You realize that synthesis and testing are not the main parts of Pharma, right? Look at the families they use Piperazines (Abilify), etc. And before Shulgin "Mood Stabilizers" were called Sedatives or Euphoriants, because he brought ideas like "Psychedelic" and "Entactogen" to the forefront of human thought and they took it from there.

Sure all the main stuff he was playing with is illegal now, but that is not at all because of him. If you look at medicine it is OBVIOUS they have carried Shulgin's wisdom. We would not know HALF of what we know about receptors without him. Chopra's (and his group's) discoveries of "Chemical Emotions" would have been impossible without Shulgin as a "precursor".

First off, props on totally ignoring everything that you feel you don't have an adequate rebuttal for, you would do fabulously as a half-baked independent political candidate. Second of all, major props for COMPLETELY MISUNDERSTANDING the most basic of concepts in the field you insist you are entering commercially imminently. Although I'm not sure why I'm bothering; since you're just going to flip-flop and say my explanation is exactly what you meant all along and we're all just too plebeian to understand you; but let me break it down for you:

1. Mood stabilizers and sedatives/euphoriants are NOT the same thing. Just because some compounds have been reclassified or additionally classified between said categories does not mean anything intrinsically.

2. Psychedelics and empathogen/entactogens have nothing to do with mood stabilizers or sedatives. Mood stabilizers often exert their effects through voltage-gated sodium channels and/or the GABAergic system. Psychedelics and empathogen/entactogens have literally the opposite effect of the compounds you have compared them to and act on the monoaminergic system.

Furthermore, as Sekio said, there is absolutely no correlation between Shulgin and any of what you just said. You say everything you have stated is so OBVIOUS and self-evident, and yet I have seen no sources presented or arguements made other than its just so obvious that Shulgin is the one true god of pharmacology and modern medicine. Don't get me wrong, I have lots of respect for the man, and I consider him a genius, but he did not do what you are stating. I have a feeling that if he were to read what you have stated here, he would be none-too-happy, since people like him have a strong sense of "credit where credit is due." I'm sure he would tell you to do some more research before speaking on a subject you clearly know less than nothing about. Yes, your knowledge is actually negative in this field, since you have about a hundred thousand misunderstood, ill-conceived, and downright WRONG ideas on this subject and you refuse to be educated by those who know more than you.

One more thing: what, pray-tell, is the main parts of the pharmaceutical industry if not SAR-based rational drug design, synthesis, and bioassay? Again, you don't bother to read the arguements you are trying to rebut, since you mention that synthesis is not the main part of the pharmaceutical industry, when I clearly said that SAR-based drug discovery is an important facet. I feel like I'm talking to a child here... Your arguements are refuted over and over, and yet you keep drumming on them ad nauseam.

By the way, I think its so hilarious that you commented that you believe you're on a government watch-list for making a plaintext list of random-ass compounds...

 

[MrPorter]

Shaggy, you talk of these volatile compounds that you huff for a quick trip and yet you're set on whacking carbonyls everywhere. I'll give you some examples.
Amphetamine: 11.3C mp, 203C bp
Methamphetamine: 3C mp, 212C bp

Ephedrine (beta-hydroxy methamphetamine): 188C mp
Noradrenaline (beta-hydroxy phenethylamine with some more hydroxyls): 217C mp, 442C bp

Admittedly these are hydroxyls and not C=O s but just chucking on Oxygens increase intermolecular forces, increases boiling point, decreases volatility.

Now, Nitrous Oxide and Xenon are both gases at room temperature and both have a fairly short lasting high. I think I read Xenon can last up to 30 minutes but can't confirm it.

Fragrances tend to smell nice, so amines are out along with thios. This automatically means we aren't looking for alkaloids. THC, CBD, alcohols (GHB/GBL/EtOH) and Salvia don't have Nitrogens. They're the only ones I can think of right now. Salvias pretty short lasting, weed gets you stoned for a couple hours tops when smoked, yet hours on end when eaten. Maybe this is a way forward?

But wait! Alas, your beloved Myrecene almost matches up with LSD's semi-backbone. With just an extra Carbon in that Myrecene, it would fall perfectly on top (ignoring the amide's N)

I don't think closed ring bk-DMAA is closed enough, maybe we need this

My only worry with this is that it closely resembles LEGO, and I wouldn't like to swallow those sharp pointy edges.


Offtopic here but why do cokes esters not just hydrolyse in acidic conditions, or is that why coke is shit orally and not any other route?

 

[pharmakos]

I wouldn't like to swallow those sharp pointy edges.

and those corners would probably be especially hard on the nasal cavity :D

 

[Lightning-Nl]

@ShaggyFin

You may now a bit of chemistry, but you utterly lack ANY knowledge of pharmacology. Just because a chemical is stable, doesn't mean it will be pharmacologically active. You also have no idea what this chemical is going to do in the body. It may have the desired psychoactive effects, but it's pharmacokinetics could be fucked beyond belief (like PMA) which just just results in the drug being poison rather than a psychoactive.

You have totally left one huge, important factor out of all of your rambling, incoherient responses. The chemistry doesn't matter, THE BODY is what matters. You have to synthesize chemicals that will play nice in the body. Then you have to tweak that so it can be polar/non-polar enough to cross the BBB. Then you have to make sure it doesn't have neurotoxic effects. Etc.

Most everything you've said, is quite possibly some of the dumbest things I have ever heard. At no point in any of your rambling, incoherient responses did I hear anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this thread is now dumber having read it. I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul.

 

[Bagseed]

not sure, if he is trolling or not....

either way, BoBL imo.

 

[sekio]

Offtopic here but why do cokes esters not just hydrolyse in acidic conditions, or is that why coke is shit orally and not any other route?

They do hydrolise, that's why cocaine needs to be kept dry, has a short half life, and is best not taken orally.

 

[ShaggyFin]

Alright, so I have been doing some reading on fragrances today, and since there are a few things that can be extracted straight from plants at 80%+ purity (some as high as 95% even with other substances present) I am going to start with full spectrum steam distillation extracts, and all directly natural compounds except for the solvents.

Benzoin Gum has Benzoic acid as the main ingredient, so I will use that to Benzylate things and make them "Aromatic" (I'm pretty sure that fits your definition), or just to see what happens. So, now I can talk about something besides the Chloroscone model.

But I have a question.

I was just reading online (citation for anyone that needs one http://www.rollitup.org/cooking-cannabis/286271-acetone-denatonium-benzoate-hash.html) that when someone made their hash with Acetone/Denatonium Benzoate and it made the hash bitter (I assume they tried it because they give an example), they commented that Denatonium Benzoate is used to Denature alcohol, and maybe "Denatured" the THC. But I am pretty sure that this is a wrong use of "Denatured", because the Alcohol is not effected molecularly it is just made nasty and maybe poisonous because they added a poisonous substance in with the alcohol.

I have a theory that Benzoic Acid would have similar effects to whatever the Denatonium Benzoate would do, but not so extreme as far as bad smell, etc. Creating a "THC Benzoate" Molecule. My theory is that this would be a much more Aromatic Molecule than plain THC, and could be used for Fragrance in states where Cannabinoids are legal.

Shaggy, you talk of these volatile compounds that you huff for a quick trip and yet you're set on whacking carbonyls everywhere. I'll give you some examples.
Amphetamine: 11.3C mp, 203C bp
Methamphetamine: 3C mp, 212C bp

Ephedrine (beta-hydroxy methamphetamine): 188C mp
Noradrenaline (beta-hydroxy phenethylamine with some more hydroxyls): 217C mp, 442C bp

Admittedly these are hydroxyls and not C=O s but just chucking on Oxygens increase intermolecular forces, increases boiling point, decreases volatility.

Now, Nitrous Oxide and Xenon are both gases at room temperature and both have a fairly short lasting high. I think I read Xenon can last up to 30 minutes but can't confirm it.

Fragrances tend to smell nice, so amines are out along with thios. This automatically means we aren't looking for alkaloids. THC, CBD, alcohols (GHB/GBL/EtOH) and Salvia don't have Nitrogens. They're the only ones I can think of right now. Salvias pretty short lasting, weed gets you stoned for a couple hours tops when smoked, yet hours on end when eaten. Maybe this is a way forward?

But wait! Alas, your beloved Myrecene almost matches up with LSD's semi-backbone. With just an extra Carbon in that Myrecene, it would fall perfectly on top (ignoring the amide's N)

I don't think closed ring bk-DMAA is closed enough, maybe we need this

My only worry with this is that it closely resembles LEGO, and I wouldn't like to swallow those sharp pointy edges.


Offtopic here but why do cokes esters not just hydrolyse in acidic conditions, or is that why coke is shit orally and not any other route?

I like you.

Not sure about the coke thing, but thank you for bringing up all the other things. I'm not sure how to reply (because I am pretty sure most of what you said is a joke), but if the things about Amphetamine and Ephedrine changes are true, then this could be something more than just new smells.

@ShaggyFin

You may now a bit of chemistry, but you utterly lack ANY knowledge of pharmacology. Just because a chemical is stable, doesn't mean it will be pharmacologically active. You also have no idea what this chemical is going to do in the body.

I'd say you have it backwards, I have NO understanding of chemistry but have a FAIR understanding of Pharmacology. And I already said that I can't guess at what the compounds will do and I said most of the things I make won't be active. And I said that I can only guess that something will happen when 5-HTP or something is added, but I can not guess what that something is.

But thank you for reiterating.

 

[sekio]

Creating a "THC Benzoate" Molecule. My theory is that this would be a much more Aromatic Molecule than plain THC, and could be used for Fragrance in states where Cannabinoids are legal.

THC is already an aromatic compound. You'll have a hard time making the benzoate ester with just benzoic acid as phenols are too acidic to be used in a Fischer esterification. More importantly, adding a relatively large benzoic acid group to a basically non-volatile compound isn't going to make it smellier. Fragrances have to be volatile, and starting with a heavy nonvolatile molecule and adding molecular weight won't make it *more* volatile.

Less essential oils chemistry and more drugs pls. Seriously Shaggy.

Sila-tramadol, inspired by that "silicon replacing carbon" thread.

 

[ShaggyFin]

Less essential oils chemistry and more drugs pls

Sila-tramadol, inspired by that "silicon replacing carbon" thread.



THC is already an aromatic compound. You'll have a hard time making the benzoate ester with just benzoic acid as phenols are too acidic to be used in a Fischer esterification. More importantly, adding a relatively large benzoic acid group to a basically non-volatile compound isn't going to make it smellier. Fragrances have to be volatile, and starting with a heavy nonvolatile molecule and adding molecular weight won't make it *more* volatile.

THC alone is fairly non Aromatic as far as human senses, so I just meant that it could make it easier to smell. Which was demonstrated by the guy that says it makes hash "stinky", it might just be unlocking the air diffusion capability.

And I didn't mean just stick THC in Benzoic acid, but once I get the Chemistry books I will be able to speak on how Oxygen can be made to react (using some kind of solvent or something as a catalyst) with Hydroxide, or Hydrogen with Oxygen, or Hydroxide with Hydroxide, or Hydroxide with Hydrogen, or what H3C is on a molecule as far as react-ability because it doesn't exist as a lone structure. I understand that to you guys it is probably extremely like blatant, but I am not a chemist.

 

[pharmakos]

something is likely to happen when you "slap together" two active molecules.... but that something is likely that you will make the two chemicals pharmacologically inactive.

 

[ShaggyFin]

something is likely to happen when you "slap together" two active molecules.... but that something is likely that you will make the two chemicals pharmacologically inactive.

Ok, you have guessed further than me at this point. And again, I said I would be happy if I just invented a few new smells.

 

[ebola?]

THC alone is fairly non Aromatic as far as human senses, so I just meant that it could make it easier to smell.

Aromaticity does not reliably confer an aroma to substances. This is why everyone finds your chosen terminology problematic.

I understand that to you guys it is probably extremely like blatant, but I am not a chemist.

Why not read up on some of the basics and get back to us? I mean, I'm just a sociologist, so you clearly don't need some set of specific credentials to post in here, but conversation proves more fruitful if everyone involved has some idea of whether their ideas are plausible.

ebola

 

[ShaggyFin]

Aromaticity does not reliably confer an aroma to substances. This is why everyone finds your chosen terminology problematic.

I understand that it sounds like I am saying that adding an aromatic compound will make it more aromatic, but THC is so large that I would not make this assumption without having read someone's opinion that THC Benzoate is "Stinky".

EDIT
I misread he said it made it "bitter" not "stinky". So I am probably wrong on that.

Why not read up on some of the basics and get back to us?
ebola

I will get back to you when I read some basics, but I will share my progress up until then as well. I am sorry, someone else merged this thread with a more popular one. It was just meant to be a discussion about the idea, and the progress towards it and the eventually testing.

 

[pharmakos]

^ i think the bitterness was likely due to an impurity he introduced, not due to an actual chemical change to the THC itself.

 

[ShaggyFin]

^ i think the bitterness was likely due to an impurity he introduced, not due to an actual chemical change to the THC itself.

Maybe, but I still feel like there is something in a Cannabinod/Benzoic Acid reaction, some kind of change, if the right catalyst is there. And THC NEEDS to be explored more.

 

[sekio]

And THC NEEDS to be explored more.

Check the literature before you make such claims: there have been hundreds of analogs and derivatives of THC made and characterised ever since Mechoulam's initial work. Even THC benzoate has been already done.

You can often search compounds by their IUPAC names on PubMed.

^ i think the bitterness was likely due to an impurity he introduced, not due to an actual chemical change to the THC itself.

Correct, the bitterness is due to the presence of the fairly stable denatonium benzoate, which is sold commercially as Bitrex, and is the most bitter compound known to man (percieved at even a few parts per million). It's nontoxic but tastes awful because denatonium selectively activates the bitter taste receptors on your tongue. It is regularly used to make denatured alcohol because it won't kill people who consume large amounts, just make them sick.

 

[ShaggyFin]

I just found an interesting acid, could be helpful in catalyzing some interesting things, it's a basically Benzoic acid structure with extra Hydroxides for extra fun (meaning possibilities).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallic_acid

Check the literature before you make such claims: there have been hundreds of analogs and derivatives of THC made and characterised ever since Mechoulam's initial work. Even THC benzoate has been already done.

You can often search compounds by their IUPAC names on PubMed.

I'm saying it needs to be done on a larger scale. Soon I will be teaching people in the Cannabis section that they can use their Extraction "Contaminates" to possibly make Designer forms of THC. Then from their, it's a whole new ball game, everyone will be playing with THC's (and other Cannabinoids) structure(s).

 

[pharmakos]

i wouldn't consider wild, misinformed speculation to be "teaching"... perhaps you should stick to just learning for now, bud.

 

[ShaggyFin]

i wouldn't consider wild, misinformed speculation to be "teaching"... perhaps you should stick to just learning for now, bud.

I am sticking to learning for now, until I can start drawing random molecules and sharing the concept with others.