Opioids I felt the need to share this. DXM, Diphenhydramine and Opiate Withdrawal

[Tommyboy]

So have you been taking DXM at all since the first time you took it with your last dose of hydrocodone?

 

[BlueTiger]

Hi froglegs,
I am also new to this forum, but I am glad I joined too. This post above is the smartest thing you have tapped into in this thread. Eventually, the opiates just eat your body and brain and you forgot why you were taking them in the first place. The cycle will not break until it matters most to you. Opiates are like no other drug in the way that they change the way your brain conducts chemistry. I just broke my cycle last April, I had a neck problem. I am happy to share some of my story if you would like.

 

[beengerman]

Still no withdrawal symptoms?
and like tommy said, have you been taking any more dxm?

 

[macd610]

This really is an intriguing situation! Froglegs, I know you said you were not using anything to stave off withdrawals.... But like Tommyboy and Beengerman asked,do you mean NOTHING at all? Like not even DXM?? This is great, but quite puzzling as well!?!?

 

[YellowNikes]

Whoah are you saying that one dose of dxm has prevented you from experiencing WDs? if this is true (which i doubt sadly , ) then i and a lot of other people would be forever in your dept. please please keep us up to date and if anyone else attempts this same sort of thing post it. Next time wds start for me i may just try this.

Also does anyone know if DXM has effects of the kappa receptors?

 

[tricomb]

So have you been taking DXM at all since the first time you took it with your last dose of hydrocodone?

This is what I want to know. I sincerely doubt that a single DXM dose would keep my withdrawals at bay for as long as they have for him, if at all.

 

[scottd420]

He may want to consider the fact he is probably less dependant on the drug. When you run out two weeks early you're obviously only taking it for two weeks before you're ill again, meaning compared to scaling back from one month (continual dosing) he is going to have milder withdrawals. Each month that he does this it will get easier and easier, and with the somewhat mild dependancy that he had the difference in what he felt may have been a lot compared to the month before.

In the past I've had this happen when I ran out early. Each month got easier, then one month I noticed a bigger difference compared to ones before since my body was starting to adjust to this pattern (to a point where I didn't even vomit), so I kinda put the facts together and realized what was happening, and it makes sense if you think about it. At first you don't notice a huge difference because it's only happened a couple of times, so the body isn't used to it so homeostasis doesn't really begin to shift. The more often this happens means the body is going to start adjusting quicker as it assumes it will be the new normal until it reaches the point where the body reaches a balance and you won't feel a whole lot better, but you have reached the new equilibrium. But, that transition takes time, so it makes sense that he may not notice much at first (the last few months). I bet any money if he started stretching it out over the month his dependancy would grow since his body isn't used to taking any breaks. Right now he's in the transition stage and getting closer to what a two week dependancy feels like compared to a multi-month run (which is a big difference).
Let us know how it goes Froglegs, though I think you'll be in the clear, other than the pain that you're dealing with, which I don't know how you can deal with. I don't know how you can deal without your pain meds, but best of luck to you.
A trick I used when I couldn't stop using extra meds due to increasing pain (and a doctor who wouldn't flex my script to fit my tolerance) was to give my script to someone I trust, like a family member and get them to set out your doses for you and a little extra if you need it. I know you don't wanna hear it, but maybe if you can go without your meds pain-wise, then maybe stay off of them for a while and get someone to hold them so you won't have to go through the cycle.

Anyway, best of luck man. Take care.

 

[tricomb]

^Interesting points, yeah I don't doubt that I'm much more dependent than the OP, with no substantial breaks for..... I couldn't tell ya how long.

The one thing I don't get is why he would become more tolerant to withdrawal symptoms. From my experience, every time I go through withdrawals it seems worse than the time before, and most people I know report the same phenomenon.

 

[macd610]

^Interesting points, yeah I don't doubt that I'm much more dependent than the OP, with no substantial breaks for..... I couldn't tell ya how long.

The one thing I don't get is why he would become more tolerant to withdrawal symptoms. From my experience, every time I go through withdrawals it seems worse than the time before, and most people I know report the same phenomenon.

Yeah, I agree. I remember a specific incident when I ran out 11 days early, with little stretching of the pills to make them last. It SUCKED. Not long after, I realized I was gonna be short again, and went down on my daily dose by about 70% for a week before completely running out. At the time I remember thinking it was better than the previous episode but it actually was just as bad if not worse looking back.
I'm just glad that he isn't going through the pain, for whatever reason ....though I'm SUPER curious as to how and why.
Keep us posted, FL

 

[HighZenBurgh]

haha thats weird.. i had a similar experience with diphenhydramine... it seemed to completely neutralize my WDs... although tbh i used 1mg of sub on day 1 and day 2... day 3 i came down with a little poison ivy so picked up some diphenhydramine slept like a baby the next few days... feeling almost no ill effects i just figured it was the sub....

diphenhydramine covers runny nose and eyes plus makes you drowsey, u gotta think thats 3 of the big issues with opiate detox. im guessing diphenhydramine combined with immodium might be best way to get thru

 

[macd610]

to the poster ahead of me... never even thought about that. I don't know if this is the case for you guys or for the opening poster, but the withdrawals I go through definitely include runny nose, eyes, yawning, severe stomach issues, etc...
but the awful, indescribable depression is one symptom that I cannot stand. it's liike I'm stuck in a horrible nightmare and I remember bad things I haven't thought about for years. then I can't get them out of my head and these thoughts bring me to tears. I feel as though I hold my family hostage in my misery, as well. I'm too sick to do anything with my child, so she has to sit around and watch me have "the flu". such guilt, you know? the other symptom that I also absolutely can't stand is how every single part of my body, inside and is full of a very specific type of agony that I only feel during withdrawal.
thanks for listening, just venting I guess.

 

[tricomb]

haha thats weird.. i had a similar experience with diphenhydramine... it seemed to completely neutralize my WDs... although tbh i used 1mg of sub on day 1 and day 2... day 3 i came down with a little poison ivy so picked up some diphenhydramine slept like a baby the next few days... feeling almost no ill effects i just figured it was the sub....

diphenhydramine covers runny nose and eyes plus makes you drowsey, u gotta think thats 3 of the big issues with opiate detox. im guessing diphenhydramine combined with immodium might be best way to get thru

I'm going to chalk that up to the buprenorphine, which stacks up when taken on consecutive days.

 

[froglegs]

Still no withdrawal symptoms?
and like tommy said, have you been taking any more dxm?

Sorry it took me so long to get back. Been really busy. Anyway, only took that one dose of DXM with my last dose and that was it. Nothing since. I haven't taken anything to help alleviate withdrawals because I haven't had any.

I gave a detailed description of what my withdrawal is usually like in my first post. I've been going through this exact pattern for a year and a half. Every time I run out around 2-3 weeks early. Every time I experience those exact same withdrawal symptoms. This is what prompted me to create an account and post this. I know how horrible withdrawals are and am hoping this information my be able to help somebody else.

Also remember that I took the DXM with dyphenhydramine. I'm not sure if there may have been some sort of interaction between the two that isn't present individually.

 

[froglegs]

He may want to consider the fact he is probably less dependant on the drug. When you run out two weeks early you're obviously only taking it for two weeks before you're ill again, meaning compared to scaling back from one month (continual dosing) he is going to have milder withdrawals. Each month that he does this it will get easier and easier, and with the somewhat mild dependancy that he had the difference in what he felt may have been a lot compared to the month before.

In the past I've had this happen when I ran out early. Each month got easier, then one month I noticed a bigger difference compared to ones before since my body was starting to adjust to this pattern (to a point where I didn't even vomit), so I kinda put the facts together and realized what was happening, and it makes sense if you think about it. At first you don't notice a huge difference because it's only happened a couple of times, so the body isn't used to it so homeostasis doesn't really begin to shift. The more often this happens means the body is going to start adjusting quicker as it assumes it will be the new normal until it reaches the point where the body reaches a balance and you won't feel a whole lot better, but you have reached the new equilibrium. But, that transition takes time, so it makes sense that he may not notice much at first (the last few months). I bet any money if he started stretching it out over the month his dependancy would grow since his body isn't used to taking any breaks. Right now he's in the transition stage and getting closer to what a two week dependancy feels like compared to a multi-month run (which is a big difference).
Let us know how it goes Froglegs, though I think you'll be in the clear, other than the pain that you're dealing with, which I don't know how you can deal with. I don't know how you can deal without your pain meds, but best of luck to you.
A trick I used when I couldn't stop using extra meds due to increasing pain (and a doctor who wouldn't flex my script to fit my tolerance) was to give my script to someone I trust, like a family member and get them to set out your doses for you and a little extra if you need it. I know you don't wanna hear it, but maybe if you can go without your meds pain-wise, then maybe stay off of them for a while and get someone to hold them so you won't have to go through the cycle.

Anyway, best of luck man. Take care.

I would tend to agree with you except for the fact that last month my withdrawal was as described in my first post. I haven't noticed any gradual decline. I simply went from hellish withdrawals to almost nothing (comparable to summer allergies... for all I know it was allergies).

 

[froglegs]

Hi froglegs,
I am also new to this forum, but I am glad I joined too. This post above is the smartest thing you have tapped into in this thread. Eventually, the opiates just eat your body and brain and you forgot why you were taking them in the first place. The cycle will not break until it matters most to you. Opiates are like no other drug in the way that they change the way your brain conducts chemistry. I just broke my cycle last April, I had a neck problem. I am happy to share some of my story if you would like.

Congratulations man, glad to hear it. You are a rare breed. Every time I refill my scrip I know exactly where I'm going to be in 15 days yet I continue to do it anyway. I suppose the good news is that I don't have access to anything harder (oxy, H or even additional norcos) so my habit really can't get any worse at this point. I agree with you though. My brain is definitely rewired. I remember when I first started using them. I did enjoy the way they made me feel but I never thought about them much and if I missed a dose... big deal. Now it's always on my mind. Your brain believes you need these for survival.

 

[froglegs]

Just wanted to update this one last time. Still doing great and haven't taken anything since my first post. Unfortunately the cravings still remain and I don't see those going away. Having done everything on opiates, trying to do anything off them is dull to say the least. I guess that's the price we pay for the choices we make (although none of us really knew what we were getting into when we started).

I have a strong background in organic chemistry but unfortunately am less knowledgeable with regard to the biochemical aspect of it. The events that have transpired over the last week have impelled me to educate myself on the matter. Barring a miracle, I'm sure I'll find myself staring withdrawal in the face many more times. If I'm able to recreate the results of this last week I will try to find the specific cause (was it the DXM, the Diphenhydramine, an interaction between the two or perhaps with something I ate) and a possible mechanism of action so that this might be tailored toward others with different body chemistry.

Some people feel that the consequence that is opiate withdrawal is an important deterrent. If there is no suffering then what's to stop you from using again? I've gone through withdrawal enough times to know that the fear of withdrawal will not stop you from using. As proof of this, look no further than rehab clinics. The relapse rates of those who choose rapid detox is no different than those who choose more traditional (and painful) methods. In fact, the fear of withdrawal is often the driving force behind drug related crimes. Good people with good intentions are forced to choose (in their mind) the lesser of two evils. They do things they never would have thought themselves capable of to avoid this nightmare.

Drug addiction runs much deeper than this. Ever notice how addiction seems to run in families? There is obviously a genetic (in addition to an environmental) influence. If you've never felt true happiness in your life due to chemical imbalance in your brain, you believe this is what "normal" is and don't give it a second thought. Often times these people are prescribed pain medication for a legitimate reason or innocently enough, take a few pills at a party. It is then that they feel what others have been feeling every day. Through no fault of their own they attempt to recreate these feelings ignorant of the true consequences of their choice... that is until it's too late.

In my opinion withdrawal is unnecessary suffering. An addict will remain an addict until the true underlying cause of their addiction (whether it be genetic, environmental or a combination of the two) is realized and subsequently treated. It is my hope that if a universal cure to withdrawal does exist, it can be found and shared. In the pain and chaos of an addict's life there can exist the peace of mind that indescribable misery does not await you time and time again in your search for true happiness.

Never have I met an addict who knowing what they know now, wouldn't turn back the hands of time and make different decisions if given the choice. This is why I get so upset by the stigma around addicts. The portrayal and judgement of the "homeless junky" by society. I now realize that the only difference between me and the "homeless junky" is family. This is why I feel obligated to do something.

 

[diver]

Froglegs
Your posts are long, but very readable. Likely because your own experiences/insights on addiction and withdrawl so closely mirror my own. With the exception of the use of DXM and dyphenhydramine.
I've been having good luck with kratom. I took my last dose of OC a couple days ago and I still have a few tabs left. Since I began Kratom 3 days ago, I have not been tempted by the remaining pills in my bottle, if that tells you anything.
I can particularly idenify with the incapacitating depression.
Ordinarily the W/D symptoms would have me so wracked up that the most I could accomplish would be to take my dog for a quick walk, but only after dark for fear of being seen by the neighbors in that condition.
Anyhow... It's about how to get through the times when we run out early, and it sounds like you're onto something.
Glad to hear it. I hope others read this and are able to duplicate your results.
Good luck to everyone.

 

[lptrax]

I'm not sure about the underlying problem thing. I feel/felt great without painkillers. I just like getting high. Nothing quite like that first Norco, that first opana line, that first dilaudid shot. Eventually you dig a hole and that becomes a reason for use in and of itself.

Look at south Florida though, they basically legalized it and 75 percent of the population got addicted. Not like all those people had some huge underlying chemical imbalance or some stepdad touchEd me when I was little syndrome. Opiates feel good.

If your script isn't lasting the whole month and you don't want to quit have the doc give you something stronger than norcos that is the bottom of the totem pole. I could cwe and eat your months script at once. But that is also a warning

 

[jambabomba]

I will put my two cents altough it concentrates on gabaergics but I think their withdrawals are even more difficult to handle.

So I started taking DXM few weeks ago during my withdrawals. At first I was REALLY strugling with 1,5mg of clonazepam to get 2-4h of sleep at night and then waking up with nightmares, anxiety, sweating etc. I had to took at least 0,5mg more clonazepam if I wanted to sleep again. So thats when I started doing DXM. I also took Lyrica 600mg day and baclofen 200mg day at then.

When I started DXM it was just few days and I was able to took only 300mg of Lyrica and in a week I drop my clonazepam to about 1mg and slept like a baby about 8-10 hours! That has never EVER happened to me during withdrawals. Before I have had to increase the dose of benzos and/or phenibut to get more sleep so quickly. But not now!

Today I'm running at 0,5mg of clonazepam and sleeping still 8 hours good sleep at night without any nightmares and sweating. So in about two weeks I have been able to reduce my clonazepam dose from over 2mg (yes I messed my withdrawal schedule for a two weeks and took bigger amounts than 1,5mg, also took Lyrica 900-1200mg and phenibut 10-30g per day) to 0,5mg and sleeping good and without having symptoms I normally have during days.

I need DXM kind of lot about 600-800mg a day without grapefruit juice. When I add grapefruit juice I need much less because I have found it significantly prolonges half-life. Maybe 300-400mg with grapefruit juice and I'm all day in 1 or 2 plateu.

Also my depression and anxiety attacks has disappeared with dxm use. Of course I first got them but when I continued daily they disappeared. And I have planned to only use week at a time so this is my second week starting now (second day) with dxm and there was a week between I was off. And that off week I was able to continue with my current benzo dose without withdrawals.

So no withdrawals from DXM or any other complications. Infact, I think it cured my depression (maybe similar action like with ketamine?) and that continued till the end of off week.

Edit: Also I used opioids during that two week time. I used tramadol up to 500mg a day because I have been addicted to it from 2010. But I sometimes stop it and especially during these benzo withdrawals.

 

[luciloo]

Froglegs your posts are so on point for how I feel. Good to know about the DXM and diphen. I might try this just to help cut back and wean down!